Pages:
Author

Topic: Could the lightning network solve the block size problem? - page 3. (Read 3865 times)

hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
True, LN seems to be very similar to how banks and institutions work in a closed loop. However, in legacy financial system, one weak link on the chain might trigger a systematic failure like Lehman brother's case, because the whole system have very little real money in circulation. If LN chains are widely applied, it will also have such kind of risk, and without central bank bailout
Not sure, what kind of systemic risk are you talking about? If a link fails, one simply has to wait until contract expiration. I might've missed something.


Not really sure, but I guess the LN nodes might be practicing FRB by then, and the failure of one nodes will trigger a large scale of withdraw to blockchain from every nodes customer, thus collapsing them all. How to make sure an exchange does not do FRB? I suppose most of them do today

LN nodes are not custodian therefore cannot do FRB.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
Not really sure, but I guess the LN nodes might be practicing FRB by then, and the failure of one nodes will trigger a large scale of withdraw to blockchain from every nodes customer, thus collapsing them all. How to make sure an exchange does not do FRB? I suppose most of them do today
You can't collapse the whole system because of a the failure of a single node when it comes to LN. Essentially LN will be like a distributed network.
Quote
Each channel is a payment relationship between two people. Existing payment channels, like what Streamium uses, end there. What the Lightning Network would introduce is the ability for channels to be chained together to send a payment from one person to another through any number of intermediaries.
Example:
Alice comes across Dave's wallpaper site and wants to buy one for 50 bits. Alice doesn't have a payment channel with Dave and doesn't want to set one up because this is a one off payment. Alice does have an existing channel with Bobpay, though. Bobpay has a channel with Carolbase and Carolbase has a channel with Dave. Alice and Dave can create a set of transactions that chain the channels together so Alice pays Bobpay who pays Carolbase who pays Dave.
This is taken directly from reddit. The Lightning Network does not have a single point of failure (as far as the technology itself is concerned). Although I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about? Could you elaborate and back it up with a source?
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
True, LN seems to be very similar to how banks and institutions work in a closed loop. However, in legacy financial system, one weak link on the chain might trigger a systematic failure like Lehman brother's case, because the whole system have very little real money in circulation. If LN chains are widely applied, it will also have such kind of risk, and without central bank bailout
Not sure, what kind of systemic risk are you talking about? If a link fails, one simply has to wait until contract expiration. I might've missed something.


Not really sure, but I guess the LN nodes might be practicing FRB by then, and the failure of one nodes will trigger a large scale of withdraw to blockchain from every nodes customer, thus collapsing them all. How to make sure an exchange does not do FRB? I suppose most of them do today
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
True, LN seems to be very similar to how banks and institutions work in a closed loop. However, in legacy financial system, one weak link on the chain might trigger a systematic failure like Lehman brother's case, because the whole system have very little real money in circulation. If LN chains are widely applied, it will also have such kind of risk, and without central bank bailout
Not sure, what kind of systemic risk are you talking about? If a link fails, one simply has to wait until contract expiration. I might've missed something.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
Just read that white paper another time, now I get a rough idea about how it might work in reality:

First two entities establish a common deposit by each sending certain amount of bitcoin into an address, similar to two banks each opening an account in counterpart bank and credit the counterpart same amount of money

Then all the transactions between these two entities will just change the ratio of each party's ownership of this common deposit. At the end of the clearing period, they settle the difference by a blockchain payment to make the ratio 50/50 again

This can help two large institutions, it is not very practical for single average user because the required deposit and one way payment nature. It seems single average user would still need to rely on large institutions, and existing large institutions might use lightning network or establish the clearing channel through other arrangements
I guess the most promising application of LN is where payments between entities are frequent and roughly predictable over the life of a channel. These might be BitPay<->Coinbase, but also it might be a man that routinely buys a cup of coffee somewhere in the morning, so setting up a channel between him and the cafe might make sense, especially because of near-instant 'confirmation'.

What you might be missing here is that all these channels can be chained together, forming a mesh-like network. In this case, you can have only one channel open, and send a payment to anyone in this network. This payment will be routed through intermediate hops right to the receiver.

The well-connected hops can be called hubs, and will receive a fee for their service. In theory, anyone can become a hub, it's only limited by how much BTC you have, i.e. how many channels can you fund with them.

True, LN seems to be very similar to how banks and institutions work in a closed loop. However, in legacy financial system, one weak link on the chain might trigger a systematic failure like Lehman brother's case, because the whole system have very little real money in circulation. If LN chains are widely applied, it will also have such kind of risk, and without central bank bailout

Most of the retail transactions are very sporadic and unpredictable. If you routinely buys a cup of coffee somewhere in the morning, then it is very likely the shop will sell you some batch discount coupon that give you 10 coffee for the price of 9, and you pay the whole package at once, reducing the transaction fee. This is also observed in mobile fee charge: Previously telephone company charge you based on how much and how frequent you use the service, now they are using a bulk model to charge you regardless of usage, to dramatically reduce the amount of transactions

I guess there will be VISA-like mechanism if the clearing based settlement is widely used. Consumers will periodically (when they receive the salary) charge their web wallet in mobile that they can pay at any location that accepts bitcoin payment. And the real payment happens between the web wallet company and Bitpay. But unless we have many payment processors and credit issuer, this seems like a single point of failure

Use blockchain to do large deposit/withdraw, use web wallet to do casual spending, this could be the trend for the coming years
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1010
Professional Native Greek Translator (2000+ done)
I watched the presentation on the lightning network and if it allows regular payments along with the option for this side enhancement then it could help a lot with the block size problem.

The lightning network basically allows people to set up payment nodes to run transactions which can be as many transactions as you want in a certain amount of time without touching the blockchain. At the end of the time period the final balance of the transaction is posted to the blockchain. The people running the nodes have no way to interfere with the transactions and it allows for more anonymity.

I am cautiously optimistic about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aI4inWxBwk

i think the lightning network can help. more nodes is always better for bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
What you might be missing here is that all these channels can be chained together, forming a mesh-like network. In this case, you can have only one channel open, and send a payment to anyone in this network. This payment will be routed through intermediate hops right to the receiver.

This would make it easy for merchants like BitPay and others to have instant transactions for every one of their merchants.

Lightning network also lets you make money from just hosting a hub. This could be a way to invest your bitcoins and get bitcoins in return. Like mining without the electricity costs.

I was also thinking that this could be a solution for renting a car. You submit your deposit, it's locked until just after your rental return. When you return your car without a scratch the rental owner cancels the transaction, your deposit never gets sent. If you bring it back with damage the owner completes the transaction and gets your deposit (then you work out any further payments or he refunds money if the damage is less than the deposit).

The main thing this addresses is per minute type of services like Internet and media.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
I see these sidechain solutions (like Lightning) AND offchain solutions (like Online Wallets) co-exist with blocksize increase in the bitcoin environment. That is how payment system work in the real world. Different systems are not mutually exclusive, VISA/Master/PayPal (and many others) co-exist in the banking environment. So, any solution is a nice idea, Lightning Network do not need to completely "solve" the block size problem.
This is a wrong statement. The Lightning network != sidechains. Sidechains are something entirely different that Blockstream is working on. I do agree with the rest of the thread. We need to implement everything in to grow the system.


Most of the posts about it are rubbish (not here in particular; in general). If there are centralization issues, we're better off having them with the Lightning network than with blocks (centralization and increased orphan rate). Now what the Lightning Network offers are near instant confirmations (trust-less), taking away a lot of the transaction volume off the main blockchain. It is supposedly even cheaper than using the blockchain. It has not been implemented yet but requires some changes soft fork changes. The Lightning Network should be fairly simpler than using sidechains (for new users).

Tl;Dr: The whole block size debate distracted us from actual solutions towards random people thinking that only increasing the block size is the best solution.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1009
Just read that white paper another time, now I get a rough idea about how it might work in reality:

First two entities establish a common deposit by each sending certain amount of bitcoin into an address, similar to two banks each opening an account in counterpart bank and credit the counterpart same amount of money

Then all the transactions between these two entities will just change the ratio of each party's ownership of this common deposit. At the end of the clearing period, they settle the difference by a blockchain payment to make the ratio 50/50 again

This can help two large institutions, it is not very practical for single average user because the required deposit and one way payment nature. It seems single average user would still need to rely on large institutions, and existing large institutions might use lightning network or establish the clearing channel through other arrangements
I guess the most promising application of LN is where payments between entities are frequent and roughly predictable over the life of a channel. These might be BitPay<->Coinbase, but also it might be a man that routinely buys a cup of coffee somewhere in the morning, so setting up a channel between him and the cafe might make sense, especially because of near-instant 'confirmation'.

What you might be missing here is that all these channels can be chained together, forming a mesh-like network. In this case, you can have only one channel open, and send a payment to anyone in this network. This payment will be routed through intermediate hops right to the receiver.

The well-connected hops can be called hubs, and will receive a fee for their service. In theory, anyone can become a hub, it's only limited by how much BTC you have, i.e. how many channels can you fund with them.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1130
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Lightning network will boost up the transaction processing time. It means the transactions get into a block is more quicker with aid of lightning network. So it would solve current block size debate.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
Just read that white paper another time, now I get a rough idea about how it might work in reality:

First two entities establish a common deposit by each sending certain amount of bitcoin into an address, similar to two banks each opening an account in counterpart bank and credit the counterpart same amount of money

Then all the transactions between these two entities will just change the ratio of each party's ownership of this common deposit. At the end of the clearing period, they settle the difference by a blockchain payment to make the ratio 50/50 again

This can help two large institutions, it is not very practical for single average user because the required deposit and one way payment nature. It seems single average user would still need to rely on large institutions, and existing large institutions might use lightning network or establish the clearing channel through other arrangements
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1058
Lightning network may process more transactions per second so that we can go with current MB block itself. But lightning network needs thirty party incorporate into blockchain.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
Litecoin Association Director
Lightning Network is a great idea. But the payment still has to go through the blockchain. To me it seems like a toll gate. The cars will still end up on the main road, so congestion is guaranteed.

Imagine BitPay and BitStamp having their own lightning connection open for 1 week. Imagine every purchase through BitPay gets sent to BitStamp via the Bitcoin lightning connection for that week. Each purchase gets converted to dollars and is added to BitPay's dollar account. Over the course of that week tens of thousands of transactions go through for a total of 100,000 bitcoins.

When the time expires on that connection the connection is closed and a single blockchain entry is added to the Bitcoin blockchain that BitPay has sent 100,000 bitcoins to BitStamp. One transaction as opposed to tens of thousands.

Same with microtransactions. You open up a wifi connection and pay per minute. You use the lightning connection and transfer .0001 bitcoins per minute that you are connected. You close your connection and the finally tally of .01 bitcoins is recorded on the blockchain for 100 minutes instead of 100 transactions recorded on the blockchain.


Technically, no service/merchant out there really needs this Lightning network. They can do this themselves already.

As johnyj said, im not really sure what they are doing aside from providing an aggregate solution with the "potential" to further centralize Bitcoin. I need to research this and ponder it for a bit. I do remember a while back seeing some initial slides stating that they needed blocks to be a max of 130ish or 150ish MB size? Anyone know or remember what im talking about? I cant seem to find the slides now.
sr. member
Activity: 473
Merit: 250
I watched the presentation on the lightning network and if it allows regular payments along with the option for this side enhancement then it could help a lot with the block size problem.

The lightning network basically allows people to set up payment nodes to run transactions which can be as many transactions as you want in a certain amount of time without touching the blockchain. At the end of the time period the final balance of the transaction is posted to the blockchain. The people running the nodes have no way to interfere with the transactions and it allows for more anonymity.

I am cautiously optimistic about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aI4inWxBwk

I wonder why should we need another altcoin to fix bitcoin? Bitcoin can live on its own pretty fine when it would not have been artificially crippled with limits.

I think it's open how well the lightning network will work. I will not use it if i don't need it since i would prefer bitcoin being able to handle all the transactions i want to do.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
I don't like the complexity in Lightning network. Because that will cause huge difficulty when you are trying to convince anyone without enough knowledge in that specific area

Even a simple block size change could create lots of confusion and conflict, lasting for years, such complex change would need at least 10 years to be accepted by the majority

Of course if it does not touch the protocol then no one cares, but as I understand it must use a hard fork to implement those changes

They said it was a soft fork...adding a time feature to the current code.

Bitcoin is already complex. When Bitcoin first came out we did not have phone apps to scan someone's QR code to send bitcoins. Similar easy to use services will do the same thing for the lightning network.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
To be honest, I have watched this video several times and never really understand how it works

The complexity in Lightning network will cause huge difficulty when they are trying to convince anyone without enough knowledge in that specific area

Even a simple block size change could create lots of confusion and conflict, lasting for years, such complex change would need at least 10 years to be accepted by the majority, maybe never

Of course if it does not touch the protocol then no one cares, but as I understand it must use a hard fork to implement those changes

Today centralized bitcoin financial institutions like exchanges and online wallet providers are already working well to a degree, and bitcoin network has become their settlement channel. This model works very well that it may not need another solution to increase the complexity. Besides, at small and local scale you don't necessary need trust less model, you even need some trust to humanize the user experience, many people have a habit to rely on authority, they can't live without authority
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
Lightning Network is a great idea. But the payment still has to go through the blockchain. To me it seems like a toll gate. The cars will still end up on the main road, so congestion is guaranteed.

Imagine BitPay and BitStamp having their own lightning connection open for 1 week. Imagine every purchase through BitPay gets sent to BitStamp via the Bitcoin lightning connection for that week. Each purchase gets converted to dollars and is added to BitPay's dollar account. Over the course of that week tens of thousands of transactions go through for a total of 100,000 bitcoins.

When the time expires on that connection the connection is closed and a single blockchain entry is added to the Bitcoin blockchain that BitPay has sent 100,000 bitcoins to BitStamp. One transaction as opposed to tens of thousands.

Same with microtransactions. You open up a wifi connection and pay per minute. You use the lightning connection and transfer .0001 bitcoins per minute that you are connected. You close your connection and the finally tally of .01 bitcoins is recorded on the blockchain for 100 minutes instead of 100 transactions recorded on the blockchain.
hero member
Activity: 578
Merit: 554
I watched the presentation on the lightning network and if it allows regular payments along with the option for this side enhancement then it could help a lot with the block size problem.

The lightning network basically allows people to set up payment nodes to run transactions which can be as many transactions as you want in a certain amount of time without touching the blockchain. At the end of the time period the final balance of the transaction is posted to the blockchain. The people running the nodes have no way to interfere with the transactions and it allows for more anonymity.

I am cautiously optimistic about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aI4inWxBwk

I am cautiously optimistic as well, the whitepaper is extremely promising for the lightning network but as of right now it has not been developed and because of this it cannot be a solution at the current moment. I am glad that the price hasn't exploded upwards because I believe that would exponentially increase usage which would cripple Bitcoin at the moment. This lull in volatility is allowing time for sidechain solutions to be developed.
legendary
Activity: 952
Merit: 1005
--Signature Designs-- http://bit.ly/1Pjbx77
I see these sidechain solutions (like Lightning) AND offchain solutions (like Online Wallets) co-exist with blocksize increase in the bitcoin environment. That is how payment system work in the real world. Different systems are not mutually exclusive, VISA/Master/PayPal (and many others) co-exist in the banking environment. So, any solution is a nice idea, Lightning Network do not need to completely "solve" the block size problem.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
Lightning Network is a great idea. But the payment still has to go through the blockchain. To me it seems like a toll gate. The cars will still end up on the main road, so congestion is guaranteed.
Pages:
Jump to: