Topic: Criticisms of the Lightning Network - page 3. (Read 1394 times)
I'm still waiting for the people who keep insisting that "Bitcoins in Lightning are IOUs". They're not posting so far, I believe maybe they have given up on that propaganda.
Hi,
The biggest issue for me is that you cannot have a safe backup of your lightning funds using seed words
A safe offline backup solution is very important, if you want users to store any serious amount of funds on LN
FWIW it's not true anymore on C-lightning. Using the [db_write plugin hook](https://lightning.readthedocs.io/PLUGINS.html#db-write) a plugin can replicate the entire database. Along with the seed (contained in `~/.lightning/hsm_secret`) it is possible to have a full backup of your LN node. To get much closer from practice here is a proposed plugin implementing that actual feature : https://github.com/lightningd/plugins/pull/40. The biggest issue for me is that you cannot have a safe backup of your lightning funds using seed words
A safe offline backup solution is very important, if you want users to store any serious amount of funds on LN
My Eclair client makes backups on Google Drive, and I've never paid them directly (only with my privacy).
It looks like you have misread my post. Bitcoin Lightning Wallet is the one that charges users for backups. More information can be found here.
does it require storing the full blockchain to run a full LN node? If so, any cheap VPS won't qualify (the cheap VPS I bought recently has 25 GB only).
No, it doesn't. If you choose LND then you can use built-in neutrino which is a light client. The Lightning Network node itself doesn't use many resources. We could set it up even on your VPS.
Both Eclair Mobile and Bitcoin Lightning Wallet allow user to backup their Lightning Network channels. The former allows creating local backups as well as encrypting and uploading them directly to user's Google Drive account automatically. As far as I remember, the latter asks user to pay for its backup service. It might have changed, though.
My Eclair client makes backups on Google Drive, and I've never paid them directly (only with my privacy). I think Google Drive is part of the ~15 GB Gmail storage space.I've never tested the backups though.
But most user don't run full nodes, rent a VPS or both
I think it was BitCryptex who mentioned a VPS before: does it require storing the full blockchain to run a full LN node? If so, any cheap VPS won't qualify (the cheap VPS I bought recently has 25 GB only). Few client i've used in past (mainly on testnet) have default 144 blocks (1 day)
I made a small assumption here. It's still 144 blocks by default, but it is extended to 2016 blocks when the user enables receiving payments over the LN. You are more likely to lose money when the other party had coins on their side in the beginning.
It's great, but user might get their funds stolen if they don't use watchtower & realize it after earlier state of money flow/balance could be broadcasted.
Eclair Mobile sets the timelock for the remote uncooperative close to 2 weeks which is plenty of time, especially if you take into account that most people keep their phones constantly connected to 3G or 4G networks (unless you live in the US where data plans are expensive
). It's also possible to have an LND node on a VPS and a Zap app on a phone which makes sending and receiving payments much easier without a risk of theft. Spark is an alternative if someone uses c-lightning. This is relevant, user will lose funds if his mobile phone having LN channel states crashes
Both Eclair Mobile and Bitcoin Lightning Wallet allow user to backup their Lightning Network channels. The former allows creating local backups as well as encrypting and uploading them directly to user's Google Drive account automatically. As far as I remember, the latter asks user to pay for its backup service. It might have changed, though.
This is relevant, user will lose funds if his mobile phone having LN channel states crashes
redundant disk solves that, a seed cannot. For a phone, just keep literal pocket change amounts on a phone. How often does an entire phone fail anyhow?
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think of it like this; Lightning channels are like a checking account, for regular comings and goings of cash. saying the channels don't have seeds is like complaining your debit card didn't come with a bank vault and an armed guard
In essence, what you are saying is LN is insecure for anything greater than 100USD. And you should put only small amounts that you can afford to lose. This forces me to keep transferring funds between bitcoin/LN which doesn't work with high tx fee
nope, I'm not saying either of those things, and that's not how I use Lightning at all. Money comes in, money goes out; there's not much need to go back on-chain, you just need to put some thought into how you manage it.
The biggest issue for me is that you cannot have a safe backup of your lightning funds using seed words
no, the wallets used to manage Lightning channels do have a seed in every implementation
there's no seed for the channel addresses, but that's not relevant, as the funds will always end up back in the addresses of the underlying bitcoin wallet should a channel be closed.
This is relevant, user will lose funds if his mobile phone having LN channel states crashes
Quote
think of it like this; Lightning channels are like a checking account, for regular comings and goings of cash. saying the channels don't have seeds is like complaining your debit card didn't come with a bank vault and an armed guard
In essence, what you are saying is LN is insecure for anything greater than 100USD. And you should put only small amounts that you can afford to lose. This forces me to keep transferring funds between bitcoin/LN which doesn't work with high tx fee
The biggest issue for me is that you cannot have a safe backup of your lightning funds using seed words
no, the wallets used to manage Lightning channels do have a seed in every implementation
there's no seed for the channel addresses, but that's not relevant, as the funds will always end up back in the addresses of the underlying bitcoin wallet should a channel be closed.
think of it like this; Lightning channels are like a checking account, for regular comings and goings of cash. saying the channels don't have seeds is like complaining your debit card didn't come with a bank vault and an armed guard
Hi,
The biggest issue for me is that you cannot have a safe backup of your lightning funds using seed words
A safe offline backup solution is very important, if you want users to store any serious amount of funds on LN
The biggest issue for me is that you cannot have a safe backup of your lightning funds using seed words
A safe offline backup solution is very important, if you want users to store any serious amount of funds on LN
Another criticism is, how secure is Lightning? Has it experienced any attacks of some kind? That should worry the users, because we simply don't know.
I mean, Lightning is still software. Software bugs and problems are pretty much inevitable; even with Bitcoin itself. It just depends on how drastic the problem is, and or how quickly it gets resolved.
Lightning is in a similar place development-wise that Bitcoin was in 2010 to 2012: usable product, and rough around the edges, but also moving at a decent pace.
I guess the difference was that the Bitcoin devs were "running out of road" and so needed to make sure that didn't happen before it got popular. Lightning devs have a whole network of highways, but the quality of the roads, maps and the direction signs is still a bit lacking.
@DaveF
if you want a GUI, there's:
I guess the difference was that the Bitcoin devs were "running out of road" and so needed to make sure that didn't happen before it got popular. Lightning devs have a whole network of highways, but the quality of the roads, maps and the direction signs is still a bit lacking.
@DaveF
if you want a GUI, there's:
- Lightning Labs desktop wallet (forgot the exact name :/ )
- Eclair mobile wallet (Android)
- That "Blue wallet" one (Android + maybe iOS)
- A GUI for c-lightning (pretty simple, looks like the standard Bitcoin GUI)
If you want consumer level use you need to have that. It is not a were in alpha stage we will get to it. It's now become PART of alpha stage work. It all has to be done together. Because if LN is finished tomorrow but the UI / UX is not done for another 9 months then guess what LN is not done.
One of the things that may be hindering its perception is that most people who arrived in BTC turned up when the hard work was done. There's still plenty of tweaking but you can dive right in and it's all primed and waiting.
Lightning Networks are developing in real time in an organic way. Most people have no experience of that. The stuff they use every day is launched by a company when it's ready and it's immediately fully operative.
It's possible old hands will still be ignoring it thinking it isn't ready when newbies are batting their satoshis around without a second thought. Maybe someone should organise a cheesy Bitconnect style gala launch just to pander to human nature when consensus is that it's good enough.
So I expect Lightning's perceived UX issues to ameliorate a little, but mostly through familiarity-driven self interest.
I have been bouncing a reply to this one line in my head since I saw your post a few days ago.
The word perceived is wrong. They are there. Everyone wants their pretty GUI menus and buttons on everything now.
Your TV gets a lower review on AV site because the smart TV features are not pretty enough.
If you want consumer level use you need to have that. It is not a were in alpha stage we will get to it. It's now become PART of alpha stage work. It all has to be done together. Because if LN is finished tomorrow but the UI / UX is not done for another 9 months then guess what LN is not done.
Just my view.
-Dave
the importance of bitcoin comes when you do not need a trust from a third party and that is why i got attracted in bitcoin back in the day, if you need trust i call it centralized
that's wrong
please learn something (anything) about Lightning before you post again
how will you determine whether the channel is legit
You can't create a fake channel because the Lightning Network is strictly tied to the blockchain. How would you determine if the coins you received were not double-spent? You would run your own node. I would do exactly the same on the Lightning Network in order to watch over all of my channels. Both of these nodes have to follow some standards and rules which in LN's case are written down in the specifications. You have to trust any software unless you code it yourself.
Who are you referring to as the central authority who started the network? There's none. The Lightning Network Specifications have not been created by a single person or company. There are many different implementations (LND, Eclair, c-lightning and more) which are open-source. Anyone is able to audit the code and set up their own Lightning Network node. Payments don't go through a central server. You can open a channel directly to a merchant so that you don't have to pay any fees for multiple transactions (routing fees are negligible anyway).
Hope you did not understand what i was referring to, i never debated about LN being a closed end program, it is an open source code and anyone can review it, how about the trust when everyone can open an LN network, how will you determine whether the channel is legit, the importance of bitcoin comes when you do not need a trust from a third party and that is why i got attracted in bitcoin back in the day, if you need trust i call it centralized, there is no two way about it mate . Since the transactions are made outside the blockchain you literally have to trust a centralized authority who started that network, in short LN is all about centralization .
.Who are you referring to as the central authority who started the network? There's none. The Lightning Network Specifications have not been created by a single person or company. There are many different implementations (LND, Eclair, c-lightning and more) which are open-source. Anyone is able to audit the code and set up their own Lightning Network node. Payments don't go through a central server. You can open a channel directly to a merchant so that you don't have to pay any fees for multiple transactions (routing fees are negligible anyway).
I'm just curious. For a change, let us look at the negatives. What are your criticisms concerning the Lightning Network? Do you think it's likely to succeed?
Personally, I think it's likely to succeed, though I think it will take a lot longer than people are expecting. I think it's going to be difficult for the developers to make LN easy enough to use for the end users, to the point that they couldn't even differentiate if they're using LN or just normal transactions.
If you want to look at the negative aspects of lightning network there are many, the most important thing is that you cannot make a LN payment offline and both the parties needs to be online for every transaction. For micro transactions it is the best option but for larger ones i would not trust LN. Since the transactions are made outside the blockchain you literally have to trust a centralized authority who started that network, in short LN is all about centralization Personally, I think it's likely to succeed, though I think it will take a lot longer than people are expecting. I think it's going to be difficult for the developers to make LN easy enough to use for the end users, to the point that they couldn't even differentiate if they're using LN or just normal transactions.
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