But a mutualist economy or a libertarian-socialist economy would have far different property rules to get rid of the rentier class. Welath concentration exacerbates itself not because land/machines/houses/etc is such a great store of value but because the capital holder can make money off of them without any labor. In any discussion of this nature left-libs and right-libs tend to go round and round on the issue of property but BOTH of their interpretations of property rest on certain axioms that are, by the nature of being axioms, unresolvable.
I do think that the theoretical an-capistan and the theoretical anti-capistan can be harmonious neighbors.
So i am wondering, what characteristics in a currency would tend to promote equality/egalitarianism rather than the opposite? (or perhaps these questions are best left to other structural mechanisms and not the currency itself)
Ie; we ALREADY see great anxiety and frustration around the early adopter issue (even though if bitcoin is succesful, we are all early adopters at this point). I understand the right-lib view that there is absolutely nothing "wrong" here, but I also understand the very human feeling of "unfairness" (but if someone would have told me about bitcoin i would have been mining 6 months ago!) and also I believe the inequality itself leads to negative outcomes for society, no matter what it is derived from.
Topic: crypto-currency for left-libertarians... - page 2. (Read 2647 times)
I lean towards left-libertarianism but:
This would not work. You are distorting the capital structure and producing inefficiencies.
Also, its false that this discourages hoarding/savings/capital concentration, on the contrary it promotes it. How? Its very simple, by assuming that devaluating money you are punishing the people that have more you are assuming they save in money... which is a big big mistake. Usually rich people save in other type of assets, like land, houses, stocks, etc... These assets are less liquid than money, but are a good way to preserve weatlh. Therefore by devaluating money you are just increasing the value of those assets, thus benefiting them. And at the same time you are punishing the people that earn a wage because our wages dont actualize for a while, while price inflation is eroding its value. Thus what you are doing by devaluating the currency is taking from the wage earners, usually the poor and middle class, and giving to the people who owns assets, usually the more rich.
You can see this in real life. During the last 150 years the USA has gone from a more stable money supply to a more and more inflationary one, specially since the 70's. Since then the gap between the rich and the poor has been increasing. More inflation -> bigger gap between the rich and the poor.
Actually, if you understand how the economy works, Bitcoin is a very mutualist currency. I dont see how any currency can really be communistic (apart from considering the hour system a hour standard and work hours currency, but then any other currency is not acceptable, so its the same result).
So, bitcoin has, by it's nature, pretty much embodied the economic theories of a great currency for right-libertarians and anarcho-capitalists. Lots of those features are things that left-libertarians like myself also happen to agree with, so I know there's a lot of us on board. However, I have also been wondering what "features" a left-libertarian (all the way from mutualism ("free market socialism" to use kevin tucker's great term) to libertarian-socialism and libertarian-communism)
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note: If you want to have a discussion about how socialism is fascism, about how left-libertarian or anarcho-socialist is an oxymoron, etc I would first advise you to get familiar with the last 200 years of anarchist theory and secondly, take it to another thread (where maybe I would be happy to discuss it, though I did that enough on all the years I spent in the politics forum at 2+2). If you troll this thread I will totally ignore you.
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for example, time-dollar systems by their very nature, tilt towards egalitarianism by suggesting that people value their time equally (whether it is weeding your garden or fixing your computer or giving you a massage). This is heresy to capital-L libertarians I know, the complete opposite of what a currency should be doing, but in any case, that is there.
Personally, I think the single two most important features of a libertarian socialist currency would be some kind-of decay rate/demurrage that discourages hoarding/savings/capital concentration; the inability to loan at interest (all loans in a mutualist system are generally conceived of as free); and, well, I don't know what else.
--
note: If you want to have a discussion about how socialism is fascism, about how left-libertarian or anarcho-socialist is an oxymoron, etc I would first advise you to get familiar with the last 200 years of anarchist theory and secondly, take it to another thread (where maybe I would be happy to discuss it, though I did that enough on all the years I spent in the politics forum at 2+2). If you troll this thread I will totally ignore you.
--
for example, time-dollar systems by their very nature, tilt towards egalitarianism by suggesting that people value their time equally (whether it is weeding your garden or fixing your computer or giving you a massage). This is heresy to capital-L libertarians I know, the complete opposite of what a currency should be doing, but in any case, that is there.
Personally, I think the single two most important features of a libertarian socialist currency would be some kind-of decay rate/demurrage that discourages hoarding/savings/capital concentration; the inability to loan at interest (all loans in a mutualist system are generally conceived of as free); and, well, I don't know what else.
This would not work. You are distorting the capital structure and producing inefficiencies.
Also, its false that this discourages hoarding/savings/capital concentration, on the contrary it promotes it. How? Its very simple, by assuming that devaluating money you are punishing the people that have more you are assuming they save in money... which is a big big mistake. Usually rich people save in other type of assets, like land, houses, stocks, etc... These assets are less liquid than money, but are a good way to preserve weatlh. Therefore by devaluating money you are just increasing the value of those assets, thus benefiting them. And at the same time you are punishing the people that earn a wage because our wages dont actualize for a while, while price inflation is eroding its value. Thus what you are doing by devaluating the currency is taking from the wage earners, usually the poor and middle class, and giving to the people who owns assets, usually the more rich.
You can see this in real life. During the last 150 years the USA has gone from a more stable money supply to a more and more inflationary one, specially since the 70's. Since then the gap between the rich and the poor has been increasing. More inflation -> bigger gap between the rich and the poor.
Actually, if you understand how the economy works, Bitcoin is a very mutualist currency. I dont see how any currency can really be communistic (apart from considering the hour system a hour standard and work hours currency, but then any other currency is not acceptable, so its the same result).
Quote
Like I said, happy to have discussions or arguments about the pragmatics or the ideals of anarchism / left-libertarianism /mutualism / socialism/ and/or communism in another thread.
also I should say one of the weaknesses of bitcoin is that you have to already HAVE it to trade with it. This is as opposed to most mutual credit associations where you can incur a debit even without money that gives rise to future obligations. (that is also a weakness and opening for abuse I know)
So, bitcoin has, by it's nature, pretty much embodied the economic theories of a great currency for right-libertarians and anarcho-capitalists. Lots of those features are things that left-libertarians like myself also happen to agree with, so I know there's a lot of us on board. However, I have also been wondering what "features" a left-libertarian (all the way from mutualism ("free market socialism" to use kevin tucker's great term) to libertarian-socialism and libertarian-communism)
--
note: If you want to have a discussion about how socialism is fascism, about how left-libertarian or anarcho-socialist is an oxymoron, etc I would first advise you to get familiar with the last 200 years of anarchist theory and secondly, take it to another thread (where maybe I would be happy to discuss it, though I did that enough on all the years I spent in the politics forum at 2+2). If you troll this thread I will totally ignore you.
--
for example, time-dollar systems by their very nature, tilt towards egalitarianism by suggesting that people value their time equally (whether it is weeding your garden or fixing your computer or giving you a massage). This is heresy to capital-L libertarians I know, the complete opposite of what a currency should be doing, but in any case, that is there.
Personally, I think the single two most important features of a libertarian socialist currency would be some kind-of decay rate/demurrage that discourages hoarding/savings/capital concentration; the inability to loan at interest (all loans in a mutualist system are generally conceived of as free); and, well, I don't know what else.
Like I said, happy to have discussions or arguments about the pragmatics or the ideals of anarchism / left-libertarianism /mutualism / socialism/ and/or communism in another thread.
--
note: If you want to have a discussion about how socialism is fascism, about how left-libertarian or anarcho-socialist is an oxymoron, etc I would first advise you to get familiar with the last 200 years of anarchist theory and secondly, take it to another thread (where maybe I would be happy to discuss it, though I did that enough on all the years I spent in the politics forum at 2+2). If you troll this thread I will totally ignore you.
--
for example, time-dollar systems by their very nature, tilt towards egalitarianism by suggesting that people value their time equally (whether it is weeding your garden or fixing your computer or giving you a massage). This is heresy to capital-L libertarians I know, the complete opposite of what a currency should be doing, but in any case, that is there.
Personally, I think the single two most important features of a libertarian socialist currency would be some kind-of decay rate/demurrage that discourages hoarding/savings/capital concentration; the inability to loan at interest (all loans in a mutualist system are generally conceived of as free); and, well, I don't know what else.
Like I said, happy to have discussions or arguments about the pragmatics or the ideals of anarchism / left-libertarianism /mutualism / socialism/ and/or communism in another thread.
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