Topic: Cryptocurrency mixing services do more harm than good to blockchain technology - page 2. (Read 543 times)

This is the whole story about Bitmixer.io closure https://news.bitcoin.com/one-of-the-largest-bitcoin-mixing-services-closes-its-doors

What it gives them pressure and putting their ends because if the law enforcement hunting them down.
The sad story is that they are allowing scammer and some illegalities used the services that brought them into trouble. If they not allowing it the same thing that other mixers do, it surely they still exist at this time.

Mixing services keep an individual's privacy as to how it works but somehow gives the opportunity for the scammers to hidden. But that is not the case right now because mixing services don't allow that thing to succeed if they get noticed and having suspicious activity. They don't want to ruin their image and they also don't want to be in question by authorities which makes them still alive.

Absolutely. Unfortunately it's a very common argument that we see used not just against mixers, but against all sorts of privacy promoting services and software, including things like Tor and encrypted messaging services. Why should we allow these services to exist when scammers and criminals use them? "Why won't you think of the children!?" It is such a common argument that it reaches all levels of society, and even our elected politicians use such arguments to try to "ban encryption" or other such nonsense (forgetting of course for a moment that banning encryption would break the internet).

Criminals use mixers. Better ban them. Criminals also use cash for illegal activities. Let's ban cash. Criminals send out scam emails. Ban email. What about the internet? You can buy illegal weapons and drugs on the internet. Better ban the internet. Criminals use phones to talk to each other. Ban them. Probably best if we just ban all forms of communication.

If you are fine with any and every third party and government sticking their nose in to your life and tracking all your transactions, then so be it, but you have no authority to decry others for using privacy enhancing practices such as mixers, especially when you base your argument on made up fabrications such as the majority of mixing traffic being illegal.

Everybody needs privacy.

Just like any other service, if your intention is evil then you're using it the wrong way. But if you're using it with the purpose of protection and to do no harm, you are using it correctly.

First thing , these services are really important for the society , they allow some users the much needed privacy , not everyone is the same and therefore at one point of time one might now want his steps to be trackable.


These services are actually very good way to do that since normal Bitcoin transactions are transparent.

I do think you are forgetting the fact that Bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies are not made for scammers, there are only 10% people using it for illegal purposes and at the same time it might be used but I do think this does not reflect on the services but at the scammers themselves.


This is no way is the fault of the mixing services . Therefore I do think your statement is very wrong .  I have even worked with some companies like blender.io and trust me they are not doing it to promote scams or illegal activities they are doing it to protect the privacy.

Didnt see any harm cause by mixing services to blockchain technology but to only enhance the privacy and anonymity of crypto currency transactions.  What will say about privacy coins?
Understand that people used mixing service to secure themselves cause using a single wallet thrice is not a safe decision cause theres some online thefts which purpose was to target huge coins sent and with mixing service person dont need to be worry.



+1

I thought you'd actually provide some evidence that the technology is being harmed by regular use of mixers (although I didn't understand how it would be possible as mixing doesn't involve any intervention into Blockchain). Instead what you are saying is more about reputation than real harm and of bitcoin rather than Blockchain. I've never used bitcoin mixers, but I don't think it's fair to be prejudiced against mixer users. And the argument about scammers using it is weak because scammer also drink water and drive cars, so why don't we stop doing that as well?

Hmm, I wonder how much you've studied mixers before saying that, also curios if this is not some translated text since I have no idea why you used the term cash..


Proof?
Using a mixer makes me a scammer?


Nope, it's like giving a bottle of whiskey and asking the guy not to drink and drive, not to hit somebody else with the bottle, not to pour the whiskey on somebody and light them on fire...


Hmm, so are you accusing a certain bitcoin mixing service of being a scam and stealing clients coins, or am I missing something?

Except those statements are categorically not true.

An analysis of mixers was performed by Chainalysis last year, who are probably the biggest blockchain analysis company in existence and are used by some of the biggest players in the space such as Binance and Bitstamp. Unfortunately, the webinar presentation of their findingss has since been taken down, but you can still see their findings reported in multiple news and blog sites such as here: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/chainalysis-most-mixed-bitcoin-not-used-for-illicit-purposes

They found that only 8% of coins being mixed were stolen or otherwise illegally obtained coins. By far the most common source of coins being mixed was directly from exchanges, meaning mixers are most widely being used by average bitcoin users trying to reclaim some of their privacy from the ever more invasive surveillance performed by centralized exchanges.

You forgot to research another story about it which Cryptocurrency mixing services will give more secure transactions for holders and will make their transaction untraceable because there are lots of people out there who had been a victim by those evil people who only exist to steal other peoples money. With the help of Cryptocurrency mixing services, they can prevent this kind of act. for your information, you can see some people who fell victim when evil people traced them. check this link: https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks/blob/master/README.md

Bitcoin can be used for various things. Much like cash. Because bitcoin can be used for illicit activities, should we ban it?
Do you think that there aren't legitimate uses to mixers? Freedom of choice is an important aspect of money. You can't just ban certain uses of money and expect that to be followed.

What's good and bad can be determined with several thought processes. Not all are as objective.
But in terms of causing harm, I think mixers do little harm to other parties. They are not dangerous or violent towards others for example. They're just a tool to offer more frangibility to non-anonymous blockchains.
The harm isn't done by these services. Its maybe by some of their users. But that doesn't mean the services are at fault.

Let me leave the quote here of one of the most successful tumbling services, even preceding Chipmixer.


I think we can surmise what can be the answer to the OP's question.

It is my personal opinion that mixing services do somewhat facilitate the cleaning of illegitimate funds, I don't think anybody would argue against this.

It may not be the absolute biggest use case for mixers, but I would guess that at least 20% of their activity comes from people trying to improve the fungibility of their assets because they're from dubious sources.

I'm not a fan of them in general either. I think there should be on-chain privacy features that don't require the use of a "trusted" third party like mixers. Understandably, most of these mixers have an anonymous team, but that also means they can run off with funds without a hitch if they chose to. This makes it very difficult to trust them.

I think we simply need some way of performing a trustless atomic swap between cryptocurrencies like BTC and XMR, then we can cut out these middlemen programs and avoid the risks that come with them.

I actually did. Apologies if the way I phrased it sounded like I was implying that you're the one assuming that mixers are only used by scammers.

Point still stands. I don't believe 13k Bitcoins is a huge amount, relative to the amount of Bitcoin mixed regularly. Scams are bound to happen and mixers only helps to improve the privacy. If anything, this would just be a good indication that it is hard to trace Bitcoin and that privacy would be improved with the use of mixers. It could provide a justification for the government's resistance but it would be beneficial from a consumer stand point. Standard Chartered (and various other major banks) had a huge money laundering scandal and it doesn't seem to have affected the consumer market that much.

Well, it's all pretty simple... Bitcoin is a system to transfer wealth. Just like cash or gold.

When i was young, you could buy all kind of illegal drugs at the gate of our school using fiat, mind you, this was many, many, many years before satoshi published anything even remotely related to bitcoin. Still, my mother forced me to go to school and she gave me pocket money every month (which I used to buy weed).

It was known that if you wanted to avoid taxes, your had to bring your "black market money" (money you made by doing jobs for which you didn't pay any taxes) to luxembourg. They accepted your cash without questions, gave you a high interest rate and they didn't communicate with other governements for tax fraud purposes. Still, most transfers were completely legal.

It was known that certain shops in certain city's took in stolen money and "black market money" and laundered it. Still, an average person like me could visit these shops and buy a newspaper (or whatever they sold)

There were jewelers that took in stolen gold, melted it down and poured it into legal-looking forms. Still, an average person like me could walk into these shops and buy a wedding ring for his wife.

That's just the way any system to transfer wealth works. It's mostly used for good, but it can also be used for bad. No need to ban all banks, all shops and all jewelers. No need to close the schools or burn all fiat money. Just find the drug dealers, money launders and other criminals and punish them accordingly.

Mixers serve a very good purpose... They protect not only my privacy, but also my family's well-being. I depend on services that take crypto currency that can be linked to me and in exchange give me a slightly smaller amount that cannot be traced back to me.
I know many, many other completely legit people that do not posses a single satoshi in their private wallets that hasn't been mixed or coinjoined.

I do agree that if you ever found a system to transfer wealth that could never be used for any illicit activity, it would have a better image than any "other" system to transfer wealth (like fiat, gold or bitcoin). But i don't see this happening anytime soon.

It is obvious you don't read  what I posted there. I'm not assuming that all users of mixers are scammers. If you see it in my post you can quote it. It is no more news that many blockchain projects are easily turning to scam and one of the way those scammers run totally with such funds is to use mixing services. Such case is what was posted here https://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/news/plustoken-wallet-moves-13k-btc-to-mixer-another-sell-off-imminent/

Cryptos in general are designed to help to create a decentralised currency such that they are inherently harder to trace and are better able to preserve the privacy of users. Mixers are just a way for users to better improve their privacy and that is totally reasonable.

It's foolish to assume that all of the users of mixers are engaging in illicit activities and it is also unreasonable to stop crypto mixers just because a portion of its users are doing something illegal. Fiat is also often used to commit crime and no one has the intention to dump fiat and adopt some other currency.

You cannot ban a legit service because criminals/scammers use them. This is censorship, this is how dictators think. Scammers will always use legit services.

Scammers/criminals should be hunted by the authorities without harming honest people.

Criminals use cars to run away from the police. Let's ban cars as well?

It's no secret that mixing services are mostly used by scammers.What's weird about them,is that most mixing service websites state in their Terms of Service that using the mixing service for illegal purposes is not allowed,even though we all know for what purpose those services are being used.It's like giving a bottle of whiskey to an alcoholic and saying "Don't drink the whiskey!"  
BTC mixers are going harm to the BTC community in two ways:
1.By creating a bad image of Bitcoin as a scammer/criminal friendly cryptocurrency.
2.By scamming people and stealing their coins.

Come to think about the fiats, is your fiats not be used for ML?, Why are those scammers printing fake currency notes to scam others?, C'm-on, you should understand that, no matter the technology scammers and hackers will always find their ways around for their personal gains(for their safety). No harm from mixer as I could see!....

In short it's exactly the opposite to what OP says. Mixing services are for the sake of securing attacks from scammers and not the way around it.  

With few of the exceptional services , most of them could harm your fund though, by claiming their genuinely services and at the end engulfing your fund to their wallets. Now I would say that is the harm a bitcoin mixing service could do with the help of blockchain.

Also in the very beginning, the sole purpose of blockchain itself is integrity of transaction/data. If we add up more complex algo to do a transaction over it then it doesnt mean its harming the blockchain at the end.