Excuse my ignorance, but why is this thread not in the Altcoin section?
As I understand it, the discussion is intended to be about crytponote protocol, not specifically an altcoin.
Topic: Cryptonote: More Bitcoin Than Bitcoin - page 6. (Read 11311 times)
As I understand it, the discussion is intended to be about crytponote protocol, not specifically an altcoin.
Anything truly important/revolutionary that Cryptonote does, can be rolled into Bitcoin in the future if necessary.
It won't be copy & paste protocol, but can be implemented.
Satoshi created the Bitcoin Whitepaper.
If CryptoNote is more toward what Satoshi intended as a coin, then Satoshi would have outlined/designed that, instead.
There is nothing in CryptoNote that Satoshi could not have envisioned and implemented at the time.
It won't be copy & paste protocol, but can be implemented.
Satoshi created the Bitcoin Whitepaper.
If CryptoNote is more toward what Satoshi intended as a coin, then Satoshi would have outlined/designed that, instead.
There is nothing in CryptoNote that Satoshi could not have envisioned and implemented at the time.
Satoshi's initial creation of Bitcoin was very buggy. Gavin actually cleaned up/improved most of the Bitcoin code. For example, when Bitcoin first came out, there was a bug that allowed for unlimited creations of Bitcoins..
So, Satoshi is/was not perfect.
Besides, getting back on topic. I *like* Bitcoin's transparent blockchain for it's ability to trace transactions. If it had anonymity from the start it'd be a different story(I'd like that too), but anything other than transparent now and it'd seem dubious. While at that, I also *like* cryptonote for it's *dual functions* at anonymity/transparency, I'm new at it but Monero seems like the leader currency there.
Excuse my ignorance, but why is this thread not in the Altcoin section?
Anything truly important/revolutionary that Cryptonote does, can be rolled into Bitcoin in the future if necessary.
It won't be copy & paste protocol, but can be implemented.
Satoshi created the Bitcoin Whitepaper.
If CryptoNote is more toward what Satoshi intended as a coin, then Satoshi would have outlined/designed that, instead.
There is nothing in CryptoNote that Satoshi could not have envisioned and implemented at the time.
It won't be copy & paste protocol, but can be implemented.
Satoshi created the Bitcoin Whitepaper.
If CryptoNote is more toward what Satoshi intended as a coin, then Satoshi would have outlined/designed that, instead.
There is nothing in CryptoNote that Satoshi could not have envisioned and implemented at the time.
Care to share a little about what it is? Am I right guessing it's a coin with anonymous send features like DRK and a few others?
Its not a coin, its a protocol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryptoNote
Ok, that's interesting. I don't know how I feel about it as part of what I like about Bitcoin is the transparency of the blockchain. If it was somehow an option that could be turned on and off...
Cryptonote does allow you the option of "turning transparency on and off". Through the use of "payment IDs" and "view keys" you can give others access to information. I believe the view key functionality is not entirely implemented in Monero (the coin I am interested in), but all the mechanics for this are there.
Crtyptonote coins give you the choice of privacy or transparancy.
Crypto note seems really promising, I'm gonna keep an eye on it for a while, mabey it will create a good coin one day.
Garbage. That's the whole strength of Bitcoin, is it's transparent, trustful, trace any transaction to the Genesis Block Blockchain Ledger.
One nice thing about cryptonote as opposed to some of the other anonymity schemes is that there is a degree of traceability. It is ambiguous whether a coin comes from A, B, or C, but it must come from one and only one of them. So you do have a verifiability that the integrity of the money supply hasn't been violated. That's one of the big issues with zerocash and the "trusted setup".
Garbage. That's the whole strength of Bitcoin, is it's transparent, trustful, trace any transaction to the Genesis Block Blockchain Ledger.
Having an anonymous blockchain seems shady, seedy, and made for illicit activity.
Thank God this thing is pretty much dead on arrival anyway. Soon to be forgotten in the annals of Crypto history.
RIP Cryptonote.
Having an anonymous blockchain seems shady, seedy, and made for illicit activity.
Thank God this thing is pretty much dead on arrival anyway. Soon to be forgotten in the annals of Crypto history.
RIP Cryptonote.
(disclaimer - hopefully the below will not be read as "oh this ginger guy is hardcore monero, so he's just pumping blah blah blah. I'm not hardcore monero - I'm hardcore decentralized value exchange, and currently, in my opinion, I think monero foots the bill. Indeed, I am still critical of monero - the use of pools, for instance, pushes the scales towards centralization. Now, back to the topic)
(snip)
Satoshi got as close to his vision as he practically could as a 1 man coding machine, and it's revolutionary. But cryptonote is in fact much closer to his vision than what he created. More private. More decentralized. More secure. Untraceable. Unlinkable. Better at being bitcoin than bitcoin.
Yah, I wish I could see an honest discussion or at least some input from the hardcore bitcoin diehards. (no offense, I'm seeing a lot of usual suspects in here). And if I've missed the discussion because I'm late in the game, I'll totally mod my post if someone gives me a good non-trolled discussion about the topic.
In my opinion, bitcoin is here to stay, but its slowly moving towards the equivalent of a centralized financial technology that also functions as currency. I.e., you could purchase your own bitcoins for your economic activity, but the merchant and the merchants bank and your personal bank are already doing all of their communication / remittances / etc on the bitcoin blockchain, so why bother? We've already seen that the regular financial user really wants convenience as opposed to security and/or pseudonymity - whats the proportion of accounts that are originated / hosted / whatever on third party sites? (coinbase, circle, blockchain.info, etc)
Of course, the "currency vs. fintech backbone" could be applied to any cryptocurrency, and its something that only time will tell.
Hrm, actually, I'm scanning over satoshi's whitepaper. It's quite interesting, privacy is not mentioned in the conclusion.
Indeed, privacy is only mentioned as point #10, which is sandwiched by point 9 "Combining and splitting value" and point 11 "calculations". At this point I can only infer things because I missed the original discussions, but "privacy" seems an afterthought or an emergent property, not necessarily a designed property.
So based on the whitepaper, bitcoin technically does what it set out to do as a technology. It is "a system for electronic transactions without relying on trust". Indeed, the concept of decentralization is not explicit in the whitepaper. In fact, the only two instances of the root "central" are:
I think the phrase "cryptonote: more bitcoin than bitcoin" refers to the bitcoin ethos - that is, decentralization of a fundamental component of contemporary civilization: the ability to transfer and store value. In my opinion, privacy is required for a fully functioning value transfer system that properly represents the value that a civilization has for stuff (material goods, thoughts, actions, service, etc).
(I apologize if I missed something in the whitepaper or in my general exposure to the field. This is a hobby after all, and I must make breakfast for my family)
Title updated
(snip)
Satoshi got as close to his vision as he practically could as a 1 man coding machine, and it's revolutionary. But cryptonote is in fact much closer to his vision than what he created. More private. More decentralized. More secure. Untraceable. Unlinkable. Better at being bitcoin than bitcoin.
Yah, I wish I could see an honest discussion or at least some input from the hardcore bitcoin diehards. (no offense, I'm seeing a lot of usual suspects in here). And if I've missed the discussion because I'm late in the game, I'll totally mod my post if someone gives me a good non-trolled discussion about the topic.
In my opinion, bitcoin is here to stay, but its slowly moving towards the equivalent of a centralized financial technology that also functions as currency. I.e., you could purchase your own bitcoins for your economic activity, but the merchant and the merchants bank and your personal bank are already doing all of their communication / remittances / etc on the bitcoin blockchain, so why bother? We've already seen that the regular financial user really wants convenience as opposed to security and/or pseudonymity - whats the proportion of accounts that are originated / hosted / whatever on third party sites? (coinbase, circle, blockchain.info, etc)
Of course, the "currency vs. fintech backbone" could be applied to any cryptocurrency, and its something that only time will tell.
Hrm, actually, I'm scanning over satoshi's whitepaper. It's quite interesting, privacy is not mentioned in the conclusion.
Quote
We have proposed a system for electronic transactions without relying on trust. We started with
the usual framework of coins made from digital signatures, which provides strong control of
ownership, but is incomplete without a way to prevent double-spending. To solve this, we
proposed a peer-to-peer network using proof-of-work to record a public history of transactions
that quickly becomes computationally impractical for an attacker to change if honest nodes
control a majority of CPU power. The network is robust in its unstructured simplicity. Nodes
work all at once with little coordination. They do not need to be identified, since messages are
not routed to any particular place and only need to be delivered on a best effort basis. Nodes can
leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the proof-of-work chain as proof of what
happened while they were gone. They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of
valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on
them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism.
the usual framework of coins made from digital signatures, which provides strong control of
ownership, but is incomplete without a way to prevent double-spending. To solve this, we
proposed a peer-to-peer network using proof-of-work to record a public history of transactions
that quickly becomes computationally impractical for an attacker to change if honest nodes
control a majority of CPU power. The network is robust in its unstructured simplicity. Nodes
work all at once with little coordination. They do not need to be identified, since messages are
not routed to any particular place and only need to be delivered on a best effort basis. Nodes can
leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the proof-of-work chain as proof of what
happened while they were gone. They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of
valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on
them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism.
Indeed, privacy is only mentioned as point #10, which is sandwiched by point 9 "Combining and splitting value" and point 11 "calculations". At this point I can only infer things because I missed the original discussions, but "privacy" seems an afterthought or an emergent property, not necessarily a designed property.
So based on the whitepaper, bitcoin technically does what it set out to do as a technology. It is "a system for electronic transactions without relying on trust". Indeed, the concept of decentralization is not explicit in the whitepaper. In fact, the only two instances of the root "central" are:
Quote
A common solution is to introduce a trusted central authority, or mint, that checks every
transaction for double spending.
transaction for double spending.
Quote
This adds an incentive for nodes to support the network, and provides
a way to initially distribute coins into circulation, since there is no central authority to issue them
a way to initially distribute coins into circulation, since there is no central authority to issue them
I think the phrase "cryptonote: more bitcoin than bitcoin" refers to the bitcoin ethos - that is, decentralization of a fundamental component of contemporary civilization: the ability to transfer and store value. In my opinion, privacy is required for a fully functioning value transfer system that properly represents the value that a civilization has for stuff (material goods, thoughts, actions, service, etc).
(I apologize if I missed something in the whitepaper or in my general exposure to the field. This is a hobby after all, and I must make breakfast for my family)
Interesting read - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/anonymity-241
Title updated
It's actually a Blade Runner reference. "More Human Than Human" is the Tyrell Corporation motto.
If you look at Satoshi's original client, you can see that it creates lots of fresh addresses for transactions. This is already a half-step towards mandatory stealth addressing. Satoshi also talked about a "1 CPU 1 Vote" system which Cryptonote accomplishes with its mining algorithm. Block-by-block reward adjustment does what bitcoin does with its halvings, only better. Block sizes are also automatically recalculated after every block.
One day, bitcoin will probably attempt to incorporate cryptonote features into it. But it will be politically difficult. Look how hard it is just to increase the bitcoin block size. Gavin has to write essays and debate people. Bitcoin's mining will one day become dangerously centralized. AMD and NVIDIA will produce 99% of ASICs in a handful of countries in 5 years from now if bitcoin continues growing.
If it's this difficult to change the block size, imagine how difficult it will be to change the bitcoin mining algorithm.
Satoshi got as close to his vision as he practically could as a 1 man coding machine, and it's revolutionary. But cryptonote is in fact much closer to his vision than what he created. More private. More decentralized. More secure. Untraceable. Unlinkable. Better at being bitcoin than bitcoin.
Title updated
Care to share a little about what it is? Am I right guessing it's a coin with anonymous send features like DRK and a few others?
No, I remember DRK uses coinjoin tech. Monero and bytecoin uses Cryptonote Technology. It's different anon technology from coinjoin.
Look at XMR(monero) it's going up crazy nowadays.
How about changing the thread title to: 1) be a bit less of an advertisement, and 2) indicate some relevance to Bitcoin since you are posting in the Bitcoin area.
"Cryptonote: More Bitcoin Than Bitcoin"
It's true.
One out of two is not bad.
How about changing the thread title to: 1) be a bit less of an advertisement, and 2) indicate some relevance to Bitcoin since you are posting in the Bitcoin area.
"Cryptonote: More Bitcoin Than Bitcoin"
It's true.
How about changing the thread title to: 1) be a bit less of an advertisement, and 2) indicate some relevance to Bitcoin since you are posting in the Bitcoin area.
And what about the NSA speculations behind Cryptonote? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryptoNote#NSA_involvement
The article it links to is on a domain that has expired, unfortunately, but the article is still on archive.org (here). The article is completely bizarre, and written by "Barnie" in that October 26 grab, and then suddenly by "Project CIA" in the November 6 grab.
This is from the same people that slammed Namecoin as a useless clone, so take it with a pinch of salt.
Unfortunately, like any technology, the ultimate test will come when it really counts. Hopefully for cryptonote it will be something more vanilla than the trial by fire bitcoin experienced.
(really just replying to watch the thread - I hope I added something to the conversation)
(really just replying to watch the thread - I hope I added something to the conversation)
What about this thread? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/blowing-the-lid-off-the-cryptonotebytecoin-scam-with-the-exception-of-monero-740112
The thread is more so focused around the earliest implementation of Cryptonote, that is Bytecoin(BCN). Which has been investigated hard enough to be confidently called a scam job at best. It was in a manner shown that Bytecoin has been existing for a few years and a major portion of the currency has already been mined. A forum user strangely discovered it one day browsing an onion link. Investigation revealed possible faking of dates. You can read more about it on that particular thread.
The possibility of a big scam going on was the reason a different, completely fair chain called Monero was started. It is the second implementation of Cryptonote and holds the largest vote share of miners.
And what about the NSA speculations behind Cryptonote? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CryptoNote#NSA_involvement
I am afraid i am not qualified enough to offer any meaningful insights
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