Cryptos would only have value in a dystopian economy said JP Morgan - page 2.

exstasie

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Quote from: Wind_FURY on February 04, 2019, 04:11:53 AM

Quote from: BitHodler on February 02, 2019, 05:38:13 PM

There has been a spike in BTC volume in Venezuela, but it's still too insignificant to take seriously. It could also be caused by local market makers exploiting the premiums, so it would then be speculative volume.

I believe it's because less people have access to Bitcoin and Bitcoin exchanges.

Make it more accessible, would you still believe that more Venezuelans would prefer to hold the Bolivar than Bitcoin?

Given a choice between the two they'll prefer Bitcoin, sure. If Venezuelans had to choose between Bolivars and sacks of sugar, I'm sure they'd choose the sugar too. That doesn't mean BTC (or sacks of sugar) is what they really want. This is what they actually want:

Quote

Increasingly, the line between survival and starvation is determined not by having a job or an education, but something else.

Access to U.S. dollars.

There needs to be more than just access to Bitcoin exchanges. There needs to be actual demand for BTC among merchants, producers, etc. otherwise nobody can spend them. Venezuelans can spend USD anywhere (because people are willing to accept it, because it holds its value). So USD is king.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: BitHodler on February 02, 2019, 05:38:13 PM

Quote from: timerland on February 01, 2019, 04:56:08 PM

As people lose faith in fiat, like in countries like Venezuela where people's trust in the Bolivar has been completely shattered, bitcoin's demand should theoretically increase as people look for alternative means of transacting, that also comes with the long term store of value aspect.

There has been a spike in BTC volume in Venezuela, but it's still too insignificant to take seriously. It could also be caused by local market makers exploiting the premiums, so it would then be speculative volume.

I wonder if there are actual examples of usage as currency within any of the shaky countries we keep reading about. If we had to believe news outlets countries as Venezuela became crypto hotspots, but that's not the case at all.

I'm sure that most of the alternative currency use within these shaky countries is related to the US Dollar rather than whatever crypto currency. It makes a way better currency than anything else for them.

I believe it's because less people have access to Bitcoin and Bitcoin exchanges.

Make it more accessible, would you still believe that more Venezuelans would prefer to hold the Bolivar than Bitcoin?

davis196

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WTF?JP Morgan Chase said?A bank can't "say" anyhting. Grin

Some JP Morgan Chase banker or clerk said this,but he remains anonymous.Is he the new Jamie Dimon?
Bitcoin doesn't have to replace reserve currencies,in order to have and maintain it's value.

BitHodler

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Quote from: timerland on February 01, 2019, 04:56:08 PM

As people lose faith in fiat, like in countries like Venezuela where people's trust in the Bolivar has been completely shattered, bitcoin's demand should theoretically increase as people look for alternative means of transacting, that also comes with the long term store of value aspect.

There has been a spike in BTC volume in Venezuela, but it's still too insignificant to take seriously. It could also be caused by local market makers exploiting the premiums, so it would then be speculative volume.

I wonder if there are actual examples of usage as currency within any of the shaky countries we keep reading about. If we had to believe news outlets countries as Venezuela became crypto hotspots, but that's not the case at all.

I'm sure that most of the alternative currency use within these shaky countries is related to the US Dollar rather than whatever crypto currency. It makes a way better currency than anything else for them.

Wind_FURY

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It's nothing but another FUD campaign by the banksters, who are most probably running out of narrative to make Bitcoin look worthless, useless, and evil.

Hodl Bitcoin, short banksters.

timerland

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on January 28, 2019, 09:46:36 PM

Thank Satoshi that bitcoin was invented because JP Morgan and friends are making the dystopian economy real hehehe.

However, bitcoin already has value, does that imply that we are already in a dystopian economy? Will a higher value also imply that we are deeper into dystopia? Have they run out of fud ideas? Undecided

Investment bank JPMorgan Chase has said that cryptocurrencies would only have value in a dystopian economy.

In a recent note to its clients, the firm said that it was skeptical of the value of cryptocurrencies apart from in a “dystopia” where investors have lost confidence in “all major reserve assets (dollar, euro, yen, gold) and in the payments system,” according to a report from Business Insider on Monday.

The banking giant further said that, though cryptocurrencies have a low correlation to traditional asset classes such as shares and bonds, they are not the best bet for diversification. “Low correlations have little value if the hedge asset itself is in a bear market.”

JPMorgan also reportedly said earlier this week that, with prices so low, bitcoin is worth less than the cost to mine it.

Source https://www.coindesk.com/cryptocurrencies-would-only-have-value-in-dystopian-economy-jpmorgan

As you say, they make a completely invalid point, because bitcoin already has value that is brought by supply and demand. Them suggesting bitcoin would only have value in crises is blatant BS, as essentially they are ignoring bitcoin's current price/value completely.

The thing is that bitcoin, given its independent status and decentralized nature will probably perform quite well in "dystopian economies". As people lose faith in fiat, like in countries like Venezuela where people's trust in the Bolivar has been completely shattered, bitcoin's demand should theoretically increase as people look for alternative means of transacting, that also comes with the long term store of value aspect.

But that doesn't mean bitcoin can't be useful as a hedge, a currency, and as a store of value in periods of "normal economic activity". People use bitcoin to transact globally every single day. Bitcoin is also used as an investment hedge against the fiat economy, for example, just to name a few uses.

South Park

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I am terrible at Fantasy Football!!!

Quote from: bbc.reporter on January 29, 2019, 09:48:12 PM

@pooyah87. It is also quite ironic that an institution like JP Morgan brought up the thought of a dystopian economy when their kind are the kind of parasites that feed on the people and bring dystopia.

Do we thank them for giving bitcoin its value hehehe?

It is interesting that the more they express their opinion about bitcoin they also reveal their fear and why bitcoin exist at all, if governments around the world managed their economies in a responsible way and did not print money as if they wanted to crash their economies then there will not be any kind of need for bitcoin and I will not see any point for decentralization when a government has conducted itself in such a responsible way, but since opposite is what it's happening then I see the need for something like bitcoin, it seems to me that it really bothers them that they are the reason bitcoin exists.

ðºÞæ

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Bitcoin © Maximalist

No, in anti-utopia environment power outages would be frequent, internet almost non exist and shops without laptops and other electronic equipment closed.
Bartering would thrive and be king, a roll of toiled paper has a lot of value.

audaciousbeing

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The position of JP Morgan had been known since the beginning of things especially when crypto started gaining the right amount of momentum and they begin to notice the continued popularity. However, their assumptions is correct in the mean time because its really going to be difficult to have the kind of economy that would give crypto the maximum support but there is a shocker to them which is that, if there is consistency in the push of adoption, it won't be for long that there will be an area of convergence that crypto would feature and won't create any form of disruption.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: cellard on January 30, 2019, 11:12:29 PM

When physical cash is removed in the name of protection against terrorists and drug dealers, it will be the final nail in the coffin for arguments like this to be defended by JP Morgan and co, and it will be the start of the ultimate bullrun to end all bullruns. I can see Bitcoin being worth $1,000,000 overnight when these anti-financial-freedom policies start going up exponentially.

from transitioning away from cash, really? that seems a bit overdramatic. i don't think average people care that much.

where i live, the "cashless society" fearmongering couldn't be any further from reality. most merchants here prefer cash, with many offering discounts to those who use it. gas stations and mechanics in particular always offer cash prices. i frequent a couple cash-only restaurants too. i just don't see it happening.

Quote from: cellard on January 30, 2019, 11:12:29 PM

It's going to be great as well when Orwellian laws against owning gold start passing and they start stopping everyone trying to cross borders carrying any gold. Perhaps by then r0ach understands how gold is objectively inferior to Bitcoin.

stopping people at the border and confiscating gold, really? why do you expect this to happen?

cellard

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When physical cash is removed in the name of protection against terrorists and drug dealers, it will be the final nail in the coffin for arguments like this to be defended by JP Morgan and co, and it will be the start of the ultimate bullrun to end all bullruns. I can see Bitcoin being worth $1,000,000 overnight when these anti-financial-freedom policies start going up exponentially.

It's going to be great as well when Orwellian laws against owning gold start passing and they start stopping everyone trying to cross borders carrying any gold. Perhaps by then r0ach understands how gold is objectively inferior to Bitcoin.

gentlemand

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Welt Am Draht

Quote from: exstasie on January 30, 2019, 06:58:38 PM

What I wonder is, what would that mean for Bitcoin? If money were to flow out of fiat currencies and into gold, would Bitcoin capture any of that market share as a decentalized, scarce asset?

I'm sure it would capture a chunk, the chunk would increase the more entrenched it gets. However goldbug and Zerohedge assholes have been predicting this for decade after decade with absolutely no sign of it on the horizon. Who knows what creativity they'll throw at the problem. Either way a peaceful wider economy is better than chaos for crypto's progress. Uncool but true.

exstasie

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Quote from: gentlemand on January 30, 2019, 06:15:34 PM

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on January 30, 2019, 02:08:04 PM

I feel like some people in Bitcoin community also hold a similar belief, that Bitcoin will go to the moon as soon as fiat, stocks and traditional economy will collapse. So, it seems like both them and JP Morgan think that crypto and fiat can't coexist, and one must fail in order for the other to succeed.

They're wrong. A booming crypto is a luxury afforded by booming conventional markets. The money going into it doesn't appear from a vacuum. It's from people earning in fiat and cashing out other assets. In several decades it could conceivably be something you could move into and never look back. Until then it's dependent on the health of everything else out there.

In virtually all cases, I agree with you. Any major economic contraction should cause money to flow out from financial markets, particularly speculative ones.

There is one situation I wonder about, which takes things beyond traditional economic recessions or depressions. What would happen if, as one example, the USD collapsed into hyperinflation and this led to a contagion of fiat currency collapses? If faith in fiat currencies becomes shattered, I definitely expect states to return to gold-backed currency. It worked for many hundreds of years and it would be a simple reversion to the previous system. What I wonder is, what would that mean for Bitcoin? If money were to flow out of fiat currencies and into gold, would Bitcoin capture any of that market share as a decentalized, scarce asset?

sandra_x

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J P Morgan is contradicting himself here, first he says that bitcoin has a low correlation with traditional markets on one hand, then he went further to label bitcoin as a poor diversification tool.This is argument is counter-productive as you would not want to diversify your portfolio using an asset class that a strong correlation with your traditional classes of investments, a strong correlation means both asset classes will move in same direction, when one goes down, the other follows since they are strongly correlated.
Low correlation is a good thing when you are considering diversification.
Secondly, it is no longer news that the traditional assets are on the losing ends, we are in a dystopia, and it is going to get worse, bitcoin will therefore grow in value according to his own argument

realr0ach

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#TheGoyimKnow

The world already is a dystopia, but centralized, imaginary, valueless, digital shitcoins are still a garbage fugazi compared to physical metals.

gentlemand

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Welt Am Draht

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on January 30, 2019, 02:08:04 PM

I feel like some people in Bitcoin community also hold a similar belief, that Bitcoin will go to the moon as soon as fiat, stocks and traditional economy will collapse. So, it seems like both them and JP Morgan think that crypto and fiat can't coexist, and one must fail in order for the other to succeed.

They're wrong. A booming crypto is a luxury afforded by booming conventional markets. The money going into it doesn't appear from a vacuum. It's from people earning in fiat and cashing out other assets. In several decades it could conceivably be something you could move into and never look back. Until then it's dependent on the health of everything else out there.

exstasie

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on January 30, 2019, 02:08:04 PM

I feel like some people in Bitcoin community also hold a similar belief, that Bitcoin will go to the moon as soon as fiat, stocks and traditional economy will collapse. So, it seems like both them and JP Morgan think that crypto and fiat can't coexist, and one must fail in order for the other to succeed.

Very true. I've always been troubled by that argument, that economic/stock market or USD collapse will send BTC to the moon. It's something I see very often on this forum.

I'm more of the mindset that Bitcoin and the legacy financial system can co-exist, much like gold does today. Bitcoin is just one form of money. It doesn't need to destroy everything in its path (and it probably won't).

omonuyak

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We are watching and see how event unfolding. The cryptocurrencies market has been a talk of these big guys and that means it is something that has good values. Jp Morgan is one of the bank that are going to investing in cryptocurrencies in future.

hatshepsut93

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I feel like some people in Bitcoin community also hold a similar belief, that Bitcoin will go to the moon as soon as fiat, stocks and traditional economy will collapse. So, it seems like both them and JP Morgan think that crypto and fiat can't coexist, and one must fail in order for the other to succeed.

1Referee

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Quote from: dothebeats on January 30, 2019, 11:19:41 AM

There are tons of cryptocurrencies that fits the description, though bitcoin surely and certainly isn't of those useless coins.

In case of Warren Buffett I would say that he considers every crypto currency to be the same, but in case of JPM, nope. This criminal bank is known to participate in market manipulation, and Bitcoin isn't an exception here; they want you coins for the lowest possible price, and they aren't shy of trashing it in a not so professional manner.

I'm glad that people start to wake up and consider most of what JPM comes up with an attempt to cause the price to tank.

As long as the fines these criminal banks end up paying for their manipulation aren't up there to what they make in profits every quarter or year, they will continue to laugh their way to.... you guessed it.... the bank.

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