Topic: Cygan abuses DT - Proof! (Read 889 times)

Topic closed

@LoyceV, write an ebook, man. You can sell a lot of copies.

Ah, Do you think so? I think you are right. I don't know if anyone already watching me with evil eyes.

I don't have to take anything personally. Sometimes I feel helpless when I try to put myself in someone's position. When people talk, they seem to have personal issues with the person. Imagine a forum member violated forum rules, and you reported it. Your responsibility should end here. But how will it look if you keep asking moderators to handle this report and keep trying to get their attention over and over even though they most likely already saw the report? If moderators choose to give them another chance, why are you bothering them by asking for a ban? What is your benefit? It looks like the guy is in a good position, and you have to kick him out to take his position. I mean, why? You both can be in a good position.

I heard a story. An office boss gave 20 balloons with 20 pins to his 20 employees. Told them whoever could keep their balloon intact for the next 5 minutes will get a salary increase. Everyone started bursting into other balloons, so they didn't get a salary increase. In the end, No one was able to keep their balloon intact. The boss said, why didn't you guys keep all the balloons intact so everyone could get a salary increase?

I was unfamiliar with this part of this forum where people discuss others.


Oh, Yeah. I did it already.

While you can simply avoid being elected as DT1 by keeping your Trust list at default so you are not eligible, the more feedbacks you leave higher the chances of others including/excluding you in their list which can result in you ending in DT2 whether you want it or not.

You do realize you've just explained why you added users, right? The reason is totally fine in my book

It's the internet. Stop caring about what anonymous people think of you

Not everyone is trying to get DT inclusions here, in fact I imagine most aren't. Many just don't like scammers, or the idea of members getting scammed (in particular newer members). If I had to guess, many of these scam busters were scammed themselves at one time and if so that leaves a mark. Most DT members (I'd like to think) simply have good intentions trying to protect others, they aren't power hungry drama queens.

PS, without realising it, you're getting involved in drama  


Firstly if someone is being aggressive, it's best not to take it personally. It's usually more about them being angry or annoyed than it is about you. It's also not a good look for that user. Strong criticism shouldn't need to be aggressive, it only makes it less constructive. Secondly being questioned is about accountability. If you don't like accountability, you probably shouldn't be on DT, because it would make members un-accountable.


If you're referencing this topic for example, then there is a good reason this was public. It helped cygan understand how better to include members in his trust list, something that if the OP had contacted him privately about I'm not convinced would of had the same effect, based on use of language as well as lack of explanation about trust lists etc that others fortunately provided.

That said, seeing the next topic created by the OP, then I'm not going to argue that they are trying to avoid drama... especially since this topic hasn't been locked yet.

As I said, I don't have anything against cheater hunters. I don't want to mention names here, but whoring to get DT inclusion creates a lot of drama in the reputation board. They may like it. But I don't want to get involved in dramas.



As I already said. I don't have a problem if people find I did something wrong. They can exclude me from their list if they want. I wish people knocked others privately and told them they did it wrong. But, Nope. They want some attention and possibly some merits.

Well, I decided to update my Trust list today. But I won't explain to anyone why I added whom and why it makes sense to me. I want to see the most accurate feedback, which I could agree with. I wish I could make my skin Thicker.

Even you're not included any user in your trust list, but if there's a DT1 user include you in his trust list, you will become DT2 member.

Based on my observation, don't need to worry if someone analyze your trust list, your judgement etc, as long as you have a reason, you can explain it. If you want to avoid drama, don't distrust any user many users get offended when someone distrust them. Distrust is important, but it will cause a drama.

I'm not a DT member, but that's what I understand so far.

If your judgement is wrong, you should get excluded so you won't reach DT. At least that's how the system is supposed to work. I wouldn't change what I'm doing out of fear that someone might create a topic about it. Let them. It's part of the freedoms Bitcointalk offers. And who knows, they may even have a point.

I'm OK with leaving feedbacks and I should do it when it's needed, even my feedback as non DT member don't have that much weight. But I have no intentions to become DT2 or DT1 member. I really don't want that someone would analyze my trust list, my judgement and etc. Less centralised trust system is good thing, but no, I'll stay away from these things as I used to do during all my time here.

As I said, I understand that he didn't had important enough reasons to include me to his Trust list. But I think that he already learned that he made mistake.

you really don't need to worry about that. i will of course revise my trust list to the best of my knowledge and belief.
and also as other users here have already mentioned, i will not do this stress to myself in the future and my trust list will be forgotten at some point in order to not have to explain myself in the future for my activities - i don't have the time for that here in the forum.

btw airfinex you made it and now you can close this thread.

There's no big deal in adding any user to ones trust list, but it must not be in a shady way whereby it look suspicious to others because that will automatically turn to an abuse on the trust system, if anyone thinks am worth being on his trust list they he can go ahead and i giving a tangible reference to back his claim, this is very simple but when this has been done repeatedly and over time, it makes it difficult not to believe it was an arranged work.

I don't see a problem if someone who hunts cheaters on the forum is included in the DT, as long as they use their feedback correctly. This is why the trust system was created - to fight against scammers and cheaters. Isn't it?.


If you add someone to your trust list who doesn't use the feedback correctly and other forum members point it out, you can simply review their arguments and make any necessary corrections to your trust list (as cygan did in this case). So, where exactly is the problem?


OK, let me get this straight. You rely on feedback from DT, but if no one on the forum is willing to contribute to creating a trust lists, how do you expect DT to function? Just imagine what would happen if all reputable and honest members deleted their trust lists.

I understand how it works. I have seen your guide a couple of times so far. I am not updating my trust list for the same reason LTU_btc said. Humans make mistakes, and we are not robots (I know people consider you an AI). Imagine I did something I wanted, people did not like it, and people created a thread about me. People will interfere with whether my judgment is proper or not. People use their DT Power for their benefit. Some people even whoring for trust inclusion and hunting bounty cheaters.

I have nothing against hunting bounty cheaters. But, Imagine I am doing such a thing to get a trust inclusion from the DT network. Imagine I added someone to my Trust list, and they did something stupid. After that, Someone will create a thread and mention us, and they want me to explain why I added them to my trust list. I see some prominent forum members have cleared their trust list. So, I let my trust list be empty and did not bother to make any changes as I wanted to see default feedback.

That's too bad: the Trust system needs more users who don't want the drama. My advice: leave feedback to users who deserve it, and include users who's judgement you trust in your Trust list. The more people do that, the less centralized the Trust system becomes.

everyone has the right to keep his trust list as he thinks is best for him, I assume that you understood that no one here blames you for that. The discussion in which you were mentioned refers to the fact that cygan added you to his trust list, although you yourself want to stay out of it. when you add to that the fact that your list is empty, as well as your sent feedback page, adding you is completely pointless and has no effect.
this example only confirms that cygan did not have any important criteria when adding members to his trust list. since this is not the only case, it now casts a shadow over all his choices and other lines in his list.


since other members take care of this sort of thing (opening this thread is obvious proof), maybe you should review your list by yourself, rather than waiting for other members to do it for you.

I see my name mentioned here, so, I'll add my input. I interacted with cygan multiple times and I trust him. For example, I participate in his organised Bundesliga prediction pool where he also acts as escrow. Also, he organised contest where I won Ledger wallet and he delivered it to me:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.61660355
Fact that I haven't left trust feedbacks to anyone, main reason is my laziness, not because that I don't know how I use it correctly. Cygan and few other guys deserved it for what they have done. But yeah, I agree that probably  he didn't had to add me to his trust list - I haven't done anything significant for it.
Why my trust list is empty? There is people here that I trust and don't trust, but it's personal thing and I keep it for myself. I just don't want to get involved into trust system and all drama around it

Did you by any chance mean to add LFC_Bitcoin (Trust list here)? That would make more sense, and those names look a like (a bit).

I know DT ain't what it used to be, but any DT member should still be way, way more prudent about who they add to their trust list and who they give positive trust to.  It's always been an expectation of DT members to demonstrate that kind of prudence, lest we end up with a bunch of unknowns on DT or with green trust that they could possibly scam somebody with.

Just my 2 cents, but this was some seriously bad judgement.

Edit: LOL, guess I got up too late and forgot what the date is.  Happy Fool's day!

A full third of your DT trust list that you trust have less than 100 merits with quite a few in single digit not to mention a couple of UID's with zero merits.

ooops - fixed

I see you've included LTU_btc on your Trust list. That doesn't make sense either: he never left any feedback and hasn't included anyone in his Trust list. There's literally no way of knowing whether or not he'll use the Trust system correctly, so he shouldn't be on DT2.
Note that I'm not saying he'll abuse it, it just doesn't make sense to include him at this point.

In business you can't say I'm trustworthy.
In DT, adding anyone who has left a positive trust for you to your trust list is equal of saying "I'm trustworthy". That's for others to decide whether you are or not.

You haven't sent a lot of feedbacks and also you haven't been noticed by a lot of people. I can't remember if I have seen this username before this time. Also, it doesn't guarantee that you will be included when you sent a lot of feedback. Your sent feedback accuracy should be good and helpful for others when they trade. It's all about actively participating in the trust system and also in the forum discussion (to get noticed by others).

Account registered on April 20, 2014 with 211 posts and activity of 211, no single custom trust list to your profile. What do you expect?

Hell, I got to know that you existed in this forum just today 

You read the post correctly, you just unfortunately understand the situation wrongly.

Cygan was referring to "positive feedback" [please take note that we should start treating the terms "feedback" and "trust" as two different system and not interchangeable], as in they made a successful deal and he asked for a feedback for other customer's future reference. If he did any mistake, as been stated numerous times on this thread, is that he didn't understand how the new trust system work. He added the people he successfully dealing with into his trust list instead of simply leaving positive feedback, unaware of it's recursive effect.

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I'm inviting MrCryptHodl to this thread, as this thread has been so insightful for Cygan, I hoped MrCryptHodl is also on the same simple clueless shoes with Cygan on the trust list system, generating bunch of DT2, and will find this thread useful.

Edit: oh?! Just realized today that he's been err... demoted from DT1. Nonetheless, hopefully this thread still could help him better understand the feedback and trust system.

As per that logic, I should have been in many people's trust list by now. But, fortunately or unfortunately, I am not.

Tell me why?

If they woke up, that was to get reimbursed for the ColdKeys fiasco.

No. If anything, cygan is doing the opposite of what yogg did.

That's something to discuss in another topic.

@all those who have posted their comments here
i understand your positive as well as the negative 'thoughts' or 'advantages' (no matter how you want to call it now) to create a separate thread here. i don't blame airfinex for going this way (thread) and as recommended by others here also not the other way (pm) - perhaps his passing will be different in the next case as well
in any case, it has now moved me to be even more careful to pay attention to the trust system and also to deal with this very complex topic even more than it is perhaps dear to someone - even as a long-standing legendary member, you are still capable of learning and is not automatically omniscient with this status.
and maybe this thread now has an effect on other users, who should have a look at their own trust list - who knows

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these are/were users who are mostly active in the collectibles area. i did not force them to put a trust in me but pleaded for voluntariness to leave this act (refundig, which i did voluntarily) as a positive feedback for me.
and if the users then become inactive again and/or only reappear when there is something interesting for them in the collectibles area again, i can't influence that.

I still find it suss users woke up specifically to give cygan positive trust feedback, were gifted DT2 status and have then gone back to sleep.

(Plus cygan said he's requested the positive trust feedback - if I'm reading their post correctly)

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Like yogg did?

Have you noticed Dabs hasn't come back since they were outted for doing this very same thing?

Not only that, it creates an open invitation to members to leave particular DT1 members positive trust in order to get included as a DT2 member, if that is the precedent.
Especially if a thread has been documented that a DT1 member does this, and doesn't change their ways (mentioning no names, ie not cygan!)


Probably because the situation is better explained by more experienced users, as has been the case. Not everyone responds to PMs either about these things...


Not sure what staff has to do with DT, virtually nothing as far as I understand. It's simply a lot more likely cygan would listen to higher-ranking members, rather than a single lower ranking member criticising thier trust list. I really don't understand your point overall, unless it's to try and discourage DT members being criticised in public which sounds like a dangerous precedent to encourage.

What the OP did, while probably a bit more "aggressive" in the wording than necessary given cygan's response to the issue, is the recommended thing to do if you think someone is abusing DT trust. There is no drama, as cygan has quickly recognised the errors in their trust inclusions and is rectifying them. Drama would be aggressively defending themselves, ignoring criticism, attacking the OP, etc, etc.


Congrats on taking the criticism on board and taking the time to review your trust list, sometimes it seems like a rare occurrence that DT members can take constructive criticism, let alone appreciate it!

I appreciate your attitude because you understand how we should use the DT trust system especially trusting users judgement is entirely different from you trust the user for trading with them. Personally I am giving much attention to creating my own trust list so I only included few which means I just go with the Default Trust list.

it's perfectly fine to express such things through the thread, cygan got a lot more clarification on what he's doing wrong. this probably attracted more attention to him.


uncontrolled and improper use of the trust system will probably result in being on the distrust list of other DT1 members who take care of its proper use. for example, member trankil also does not recognize the proper use of the trust system. In addition to leaving feedback without references, it is very difficult to determine the truth of his claims, also his feedbacks are in opposition to each other.

positive feedback to yogg is still there, while at the same time, there is feedback where it is written about yogg scams. now think how confusing it can be for someone who comes for the first time and is not fully informed about the whole thing. at the same time, there are no references to do personal research.

Why create this thread alleging you have proof cygan has abused DT instead of contacting him via PM first? It is clear cygan is not a scammer and it is equally clear he is not indulging in what is deemed to be nefarious conduct therefore maybe the better course of action could have been sending him a PM laying out any concerns you may have had and allowed him ample time to respond.

Yes looking at his record, cygan certainly seems decent to me too and that makes me think the OP creating this thread is an overreaction.

That would be the most plausible outcome, cygan would not have known his inclusions are bringing those accounts on to DT2. There does not seem to be any malicious intent on his part. It does make me wonder why the OP felt the need to start a thread about this issue and end up creating a whole unnecessary drama when he could easily just sent a PM to cygan to raise any concerns.

That is the reason why this thread was an unnecessary. The OP is not a staff member but seems to know a lot about DT therefore he could have contacted you directly to bring it to your attention but opted to not do that.

Take your time, it is your trust list and you have a right to evaluate it properly in your own time without any unduly pressure

That is one of the wonderful things about the forum, You have been around the forum a long time, much longer than me and most others I interact with and also longer than those that have posted in this thread but it is an ongoing learning process. We all more or less learn things we never knew (or fully understood) about before and each member learns at their own pace.

i understand the trust system already so slowly and your hints/posts/links have contributed to it now quite a bit 🙏
please give me some time now so that i can revise my trust list calmly and carefully

You include users with whose judgement you trust. Users that have left positive and negative trust on other users that is accurate and who are not scammers.

When you trade with someone and it goes pos or neg you open the trust page and can click post new feedback. Then leave them a + or - review for your trade.

If you trust someones judgement and they seem to leave accurate feedback you click trust settings and add them to your list. If they leave bad ratings on people you click trust settings and ~xxxxx name and exclude them from your list.


I think this is a common occurrence in collectibles. Easiest place to farm trust just like wall observer is the easiest place to farm merit. I don't think you did anything wrong, maybe just misunderstand the trust system. Hopefully what LoyceV and others have posted here helps you.

gotcha!
so i only include users in my 'trust list' who have been noticed positively/negatively in the past with another forum user or were already members as dt1/2 - correct?

First: agreed. It's a case of "not great, not terrible".


I'll take Sarduk as an example. His Trust list is empty:
He only sent feedback to you. I see no reason why he should be on DT2.

Don't include people in your trust list because they have dealt with you and you can trust them with money. This deserves a feedback.
When someone leaves accurate feedback in your perspective, only include them in your trust list. If they leave wrong feedback, exclude them from trust list.
For reference, LoyceV guide is the best- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/loycevs-beginners-guide-to-correct-use-of-the-trust-system-5191802

Once again-
1. You have trade with someone? Leave feedback.
2. You trust someone's judgement based on the feedback they sent- Include them in your trust list.

i find these accusations false and too exaggerated.
maybe i have not understood the trust system 100% correctly (as 1miau, Little Mouse or yahoo62278 have written) but with all users who have given me a trust, i have also made a deal (in the form of a trade or in the form of a refund)
and the trust entries (between 23-03 and 24-03) came so directly one after the other, because i asked the said users (voluntarily) to leave me a trust.
and if one of the users turns out to be a scammer or a non-trustworthy user, he will be kicked as fast as he was added to my list (see e.g. the user yogg).

but as i said, if i didn't understand the dt-system correctly, a staff-member or someone who knows a lot about it should inform me about it and i will then remove some users again
btw i don't even know now which users i should remove from my trust list and which could stay in (i don't see any difference)

just my 2 sats

Just looking back over the last three months to the start of the year, we can see that the dates look close enough to when the trust feedback was left for cygan:

https://bpip.org/TrustLog?&trusting=cygan&chtype=All



(and they are in the same chronological order too).

Well spotted @airfinex

Though users have the right to include/exclude whoever they want, it doesn't look good. If cygan has added them because they left him positive feedback, that's abuse but it's also possible that there are many users who make the same mistake by adding people whom they trust financially while it should be whom they trust with their judgment based on forum feedback sent. cygan had business with all of them and maybe the same mistake cygan has done too. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case lol.

I know cygan from our German section and he's a honest member from what I've seen. He has made great contributions to our forum.
Yes, adding other accounts to our own DT list, especially as a DT1 (which will make added accounts immediately DT2 members), should be considered very well and if these accounts have not left any substantial feedback other than positive feedback to the DT1 member who added them to his trust list, there's not reason to have these members in DT2.
I'm sure cygan isn't aware of this and his intent wasn't malicious at all, so it's a bold statement statement from OP that cygan would "abuse" DT.
It just seems to be a misunderstanding that cygan is not aware, that his inclusions are promoting all accounts into DT2 position, which can be abused easily if one of these DT2 accounts turns out to be a scammer.

Users can add whomever they want to their trust lists although they should be a little more strict if they're DT. Cygan might need to check his list and purge, I'm not saying he should or shouldn't currently. If you have an issue with his list, you might address this post to those who have added cygan to their list although I doubt you'll be successful. Guy seems pretty decent to me.

Yes, I was noticing that same thing this week. I'll have a look on Saturday at the updated DT list that @LoyceV compiles each week and help verify what you've uncovered.

I noticed that Cygan green rating has increased dramatically. I realized that he adds everyone to his list of trust. The reason for adding such users to his trust list is that they left him positive feedback and in order for it to be displayed, he, as a member of DT1, makes them DT2.

I suggest throwing him out of DT if he doesn't immediately stop doing this shit. He not only needs to stop this, he must also remove from his trust list all those whom ONLY he trusts.