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Topic: Datacasting the blockchain - page 2. (Read 4327 times)

donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
April 16, 2012, 05:39:12 PM
#24
How does the client invalidate the bad blocks unless it has a source of valid blocks?  The whole point here is that this is the only way to get the blockchain to some clients.

All clients have the starting source ... the genesis block.   The only way to validate block #1 is to ensure it meets block requirements and has the block hash from block #0.   As such all full-clients must include the genesis block.  From there every node can validate every tx from block #1 all the way to current block.   As indicated above clients may also include hardcoded checkpoints.

Nodes are NOT secure.  They are inherently insecure.  You have no idea how dishonest your fellow "peer" connections are.  Hell they could all be the same attacker.  As a result Bitcoin DISTRUSTS all blocks received from the network until validated and added to the chain tracing all the way back to the genesis block.

A broadcast system for blocks wouldn't be any different.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
April 16, 2012, 05:17:07 PM
#23
Except that one key lets you doublespend with everyone who relies on the broadcasting service.  Accessing my keys only hurts me.

What are you talking about.  Each client validates their own blocks starting from the hardcoded genesis hash in the client.  The method of delivery doesn't need to be secure.  You are aware that a node can give you a bad block right?  The client has already considered that attack vector.

Someone using the service to publish bad blocks would simply find those blocks invalidated by nodes.  At best they could prevent nodes from getting new blocks via this mechanism (service denial) nothing more.

How does the client invalidate the bad blocks unless it has a source of valid blocks?  The whole point here is that this is the only way to get the blockchain to some clients.
Isn't the genesis block and a recent checkpoint hardcoded into every release?

Yes, but his complaint is valid.  A client for such a subscriber would have to be modified to accept the encrypted & signed block digest from the datacasting company as both trusted and authoritive.  Such clients could still get such data from other clients that they come into wifi range of, such as customers, but in order to invalidate the trusted block, the subscriber's client would have to have a complete copy of all of the blockchain.  Right now, that's not much of a problem; but by the time that vendors in Africa are using a service such as this in order to transact daily in bitcoin the block limit is going to be huge and a full copy from any source is going to be like drinking from a fire hose.  There already exists an overlay network (Stratum)being developed in order to permit light(er) clients to directly utilize the bitcoin protocol without needing a complete copy of the blockchain, but in every case some level of additional trust is required of the operator of the server that your client connects to in order to update it's local copy of it's own address inputs.  BitcoinSpinner for Android uses a similar client/server trust model in order to allow an Android client to quickly assess what it's own balance is without needing to download and verify it's own blockchain.  Local complete blockchains & verfication will always be available to anyone who wishes that level of security, but only banks and the most paranoid of consumers are likely to continue doing so when the size of the average block approaches 10 Gigs every 10 minutes.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
April 16, 2012, 05:10:09 PM
#22
I like the idea, but to me it is screaming CENTRALIZATION OMG!!!

If your broadcast tower is compromised, everyone who uses it is vulnerable.

Uh, no it's not.  The broadcast tower is just a means of propogation, the security is in both the encryption that the bitcoin datacasting company uses with it's customers and in the cryptographic signing of those same encrypted archive/digests.  If someone gets a copy of those private keys (for signing, not for encrypting of the digest), then everyone who uses it is vulnerable, yes.  This is no different than the security model that bitcoin itself uses, for it's the private keys that matter.  No one can fake being you without them, this is why identities are not necessary under bitcoin and identity theft is practically impossible.

Except that one key lets you doublespend with everyone who relies on the broadcasting service.  Accessing my keys only hurts me.

It would be a high value key, yes; but don't assume that it's one that would be easy to aquire.  Yes, subscribers would generally be trusting the security model of the company they contract with, but if anything happens, that trust dies and another datacasting company takes away their business or the subscribers get their own Internet feed.  It's not vendor locked.

Thank you for acknowledging the limitations.  I will not be subscribing to any such datacasting company, but I'm sure others are less careful than me.  Carry on.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
April 16, 2012, 05:07:21 PM
#21
I like the idea, but to me it is screaming CENTRALIZATION OMG!!!

If your broadcast tower is compromised, everyone who uses it is vulnerable.

Uh, no it's not.  The broadcast tower is just a means of propogation, the security is in both the encryption that the bitcoin datacasting company uses with it's customers and in the cryptographic signing of those same encrypted archive/digests.  If someone gets a copy of those private keys (for signing, not for encrypting of the digest), then everyone who uses it is vulnerable, yes.  This is no different than the security model that bitcoin itself uses, for it's the private keys that matter.  No one can fake being you without them, this is why identities are not necessary under bitcoin and identity theft is practically impossible.

Except that one key lets you doublespend with everyone who relies on the broadcasting service.  Accessing my keys only hurts me.

It would be a high value key, yes; but don't assume that it's one that would be easy to aquire.  Yes, subscribers would generally be trusting the security model of the company they contract with, but if anything happens, that trust dies and another datacasting company takes away their business or the subscribers get their own Internet feed.  It's not vendor locked.
rjk
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
1ngldh
April 16, 2012, 05:01:08 PM
#20
Except that one key lets you doublespend with everyone who relies on the broadcasting service.  Accessing my keys only hurts me.

What are you talking about.  Each client validates their own blocks starting from the hardcoded genesis hash in the client.  The method of delivery doesn't need to be secure.  You are aware that a node can give you a bad block right?  The client has already considered that attack vector.

Someone using the service to publish bad blocks would simply find those blocks invalidated by nodes.  At best they could prevent nodes from getting new blocks via this mechanism (service denial) nothing more.

How does the client invalidate the bad blocks unless it has a source of valid blocks?  The whole point here is that this is the only way to get the blockchain to some clients.
Isn't the genesis block and a recent checkpoint hardcoded into every release?
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
April 16, 2012, 05:00:04 PM
#19
Except that one key lets you doublespend with everyone who relies on the broadcasting service.  Accessing my keys only hurts me.

What are you talking about.  Each client validates their own blocks starting from the hardcoded genesis hash in the client.  The method of delivery doesn't need to be secure.  You are aware that a node can give you a bad block right?  The client has already considered that attack vector.

Someone using the service to publish bad blocks would simply find those blocks invalidated by nodes.  At best they could prevent nodes from getting new blocks via this mechanism (service denial) nothing more.

How does the client invalidate the bad blocks unless it has a source of valid blocks?  The whole point here is that this is the only way to get the blockchain to some clients.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
April 16, 2012, 04:58:05 PM
#18
Except that one key lets you doublespend with everyone who relies on the broadcasting service.  Accessing my keys only hurts me.

What are you talking about.  Each client validates their own blocks starting from the hardcoded genesis hash in the client.  The method of delivery doesn't need to be secure.  You are aware that a node can give you a bad block right?  The client has already considered that attack vector.

Someone using the service to publish bad blocks would simply find those blocks invalidated by nodes.  At best they could prevent nodes from getting new blocks via this mechanism (service denial) nothing more.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
April 16, 2012, 04:53:09 PM
#17
I like the idea, but to me it is screaming CENTRALIZATION OMG!!!

If your broadcast tower is compromised, everyone who uses it is vulnerable.

Uh, no it's not.  The broadcast tower is just a means of propogation, the security is in both the encryption that the bitcoin datacasting company uses with it's customers and in the cryptographic signing of those same encrypted archive/digests.  If someone gets a copy of those private keys (for signing, not for encrypting of the digest), then everyone who uses it is vulnerable, yes.  This is no different than the security model that bitcoin itself uses, for it's the private keys that matter.  No one can fake being you without them, this is why identities are not necessary under bitcoin and identity theft is practically impossible.

Except that one key lets you doublespend with everyone who relies on the broadcasting service.  Accessing my keys only hurts me.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
April 16, 2012, 04:51:14 PM
#16
I like the idea, but to me it is screaming CENTRALIZATION OMG!!!

If your broadcast tower is compromised, everyone who uses it is vulnerable.

Uh, no it's not.  The broadcast tower is just a means of propogation, the security is in both the encryption that the bitcoin datacasting company uses with it's customers and in the cryptographic signing of those same encrypted archive/digests.  If someone gets a copy of those private keys (for signing, not for encrypting of the digest), then everyone who uses it is vulnerable, yes.  This is no different than the security model that bitcoin itself uses, for it's the private keys that matter.  No one can fake being you without them, this is why identities are not necessary under bitcoin and identity theft is practically impossible.

Although it might mean some degree of centralization due to economic concerns, but even the customers of that company aren't locked into that trust relationship, and any of them could catch the broadcasting company if they tried any tricks themselves.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
April 16, 2012, 10:11:54 AM
#15
I like the idea, but to me it is screaming CENTRALIZATION OMG!!!

If your broadcast tower is compromised, everyone who uses it is vulnerable.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
April 16, 2012, 08:49:50 AM
#14


It sounds cheap, but the info I'm finding makes it seem feasible.  They supposedly had 62 channels, with a final revenue of $14 million and net losses of $170 million.  If each channel were 128 kbps, even with just a single continent, that could earn them $300 million a year at $10/MB.

Only until the rollout of data lines into Africa were to take that work away, but that still could take decades.  Still, I wonder if this is even necessary.  My understanding is that the rollout of cell phone carriers is rather substantial in Africa, despite the difficulties in getting Internet to those carriers.  So the most likely scenario is that cell carriers would sponsor their own version of a BitcoinSpinner server on their local network, with a vendor locked app for their customers.  Less than ideal, but probably still less than $10/mb. 

Yet, this datacasting idea still has legs.  I'd wager that it's no longer $10/mb, and that there is a per-broadcast fee involved, so that daily digests are still less expensive than hourly.  However, hourly would significantly limit the possibility of a local double-spend attack against a subscriber.  Doing the same thing with a more local DRM shortwave station would likley cost more relative to the subscriber base, but might offer the ability to send new blocks closer to their creation.  Either way, a bitcoin datacasting company could stand to make money by using a trick out of the BitcoinSpinner playbook to reduce broadcasted data while also preventing 'free riders' by pre-emptively pruning the broadcasted blocks to include the headers, the merkle tree (perhaps complete, perhaps pruned) and only those transactions that have an address of a subscriber as either an input or output.  This way, subscribers could present the datacasting company with a list of the addresses that they wish to include, and have a standard limit, say 100 addresses.  This would also permit a local 'business association' to get several vendors who only use a couple of addresses apiece (i.e., one for the cash register, one for personal spending, one for a savings account and one for the wife?) and share on downlink equipment & subscriber fees.  The datacasting company could, instead, charge subscriber fees based upon how many addresses it's scanning for; thus an entire town could have one downlink (local Internet service company, perhaps; trying to consolidate their own middle level Internet costs by blocking bitcoin & other p2p ports, but still provide the minimum level of service for customers?) and all the locally relevant data while excluding addresses and transactions that only matter to North America, Japan or Europe.  In this sense, the downlink company becomes a trusted provider, but if any bad things happen the damage would still be limited and identifiable.  Also, even though the digests would be encrypted & a hacker could extract that code from downlink equipment, that digest could still be 'signed' by the downlink company's own address private keys, which no hacker is going to have; so even the malicious things that an attacker could do locally would be limited even with a trusted blockchain provider.

In order to use this method effectively, portable light-client devices that have the ability to present a disconnected vendor's bitcoin client a copy of their own transaction plus their inputs & merkle tree positions would be necessary; but I think that is where we shall end up anyway. 
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
April 16, 2012, 01:02:46 AM
#13
Nice find.  That's less than $50/day right now.  The site says their data is transmitted hourly.  That's not bad.

Unfortunately the provider seems to be defunct:

Quote from: wikipedia
However a mystery about the final fate of the original Worldspace satellite radio service still remains because despite the company's very public insolvency and the liquidation of all of its various commercial entities two or more years ago (in 2008/09) the company's Afristar satellite still continues to remain in geostationary orbit to this day (as of the end of the first quarter of 2012) and still continues to broadcast three radio stations:- BBC World Service, WRN 1 and WRN 2.

I wonder whether that pricing is right.  Maybe someone would be interested in buying this case study in order to find out?
http://hbr.org/product/worldspace-satellite-digital-radio-service/an/W11518-PDF-ENG

It sounds cheap, but the info I'm finding makes it seem feasible.  They supposedly had 62 channels, with a final revenue of $14 million and net losses of $170 million.  If each channel were 128 kbps, even with just a single continent, that could earn them $300 million a year at $10/MB.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
April 15, 2012, 02:47:36 PM
#12
That would be a really efficient way of downloading the block chain, especially for poor communities. You can use Bitcoin with even the most primitive dial-up connection if you can get the block chain.

It's probably possible to allow people to download a "block digest" containing the first few few bytes of all addresses in that block. This wouldn't work with non-standard transactions, but it should allow general use without downloading entire blocks. Even this might be too much data for super poor communities in Africa, though.

http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/www/TEM/EMDCS-INT/satbroadcast-india.htm

If this page is remotely recent, then datacasting a daily digest of the most recent blocks would be relatively cheap for all of Africa, India or South America.  A company that sold POS devices for businesses without any reasonable broadband access to the Internet could sign up for the daily digest, receive their gear & a blockchain on a thumbdrive, and then be kept up to date withing a day by the daily digest.  At $10 per megabyte (per continent, presumedly) that's expensive broadband, but not if shared across 1000+ subscribers.  Even at twice that price it wouldn't be out of sorts for this kind of thing.  Granted, those vendors wouldn't be able to prevent a double spend, but if we were talking low value trades, such protection might be unnecessary.  Those same subscribers then might be able to charge a small fee to individual bitcoin device users for access to their blockchain, thus keeping local devices up to date with just a wifi connection.
jr. member
Activity: 36
Merit: 13
December 16, 2010, 12:59:19 AM
#11
That would be a really efficient way of downloading the block chain, especially for poor communities. You can use Bitcoin with even the most primitive dial-up connection if you can get the block chain.

It's probably possible to allow people to download a "block digest" containing the first few few bytes of all addresses in that block. This wouldn't work with non-standard transactions, but it should allow general use without downloading entire blocks. Even this might be too much data for super poor communities in Africa, though.

Is multicast/broadcast functioning at all?


No.  It would be a compromise that the Bitcoin community isn't interested in at this time.  It shouldn't be hard to do if the time came for it.

I meant ip multicast and broadcast (not sure if that was clear)
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 16, 2010, 12:57:29 AM
#10
That would be a really efficient way of downloading the block chain, especially for poor communities. You can use Bitcoin with even the most primitive dial-up connection if you can get the block chain.

It's probably possible to allow people to download a "block digest" containing the first few few bytes of all addresses in that block. This wouldn't work with non-standard transactions, but it should allow general use without downloading entire blocks. Even this might be too much data for super poor communities in Africa, though.

Is multicast/broadcast functioning at all?


No.  It would be a compromise that the Bitcoin community isn't interested in at this time.  It shouldn't be hard to do if the time came for it.
jr. member
Activity: 36
Merit: 13
December 16, 2010, 12:14:10 AM
#9
That would be a really efficient way of downloading the block chain, especially for poor communities. You can use Bitcoin with even the most primitive dial-up connection if you can get the block chain.

It's probably possible to allow people to download a "block digest" containing the first few few bytes of all addresses in that block. This wouldn't work with non-standard transactions, but it should allow general use without downloading entire blocks. Even this might be too much data for super poor communities in Africa, though.

Is multicast/broadcast functioning at all?

For information that needs to be retransmitted repeatedly it seems much more efficient than p2p, although I'm not sure what to do when nodes need a retransmit.
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
December 02, 2010, 09:17:16 PM
#8
That would be a really efficient way of downloading the block chain, especially for poor communities. You can use Bitcoin with even the most primitive dial-up connection if you can get the block chain.

It's probably possible to allow people to download a "block digest" containing the first few few bytes of all addresses in that block. This wouldn't work with non-standard transactions, but it should allow general use without downloading entire blocks. Even this might be too much data for super poor communities in Africa, though.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 02, 2010, 08:58:13 PM
#7
Post blocks to alt.bitcoin Smiley

I think that you are missing the point.  The p2p network uses the available bandwidth efficiently, but it still consumes bandwidth.  Datacasting would reduce the need for vast numbers of nodes.  Although it may not be as beneficial as I first thought if the p2p network considers the proximity of other nodes.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 02, 2010, 08:55:39 PM
#6
Datacasting is perfect for bitcoin, anyone has $100,000,000  for a satellite?

(back to reality).  Radio would be perfect for bitcoin, even for 10MB/s the band space would not be excessive.  Bitcoin is a true one-to-many broadcast once it is compiled by the network.

A bitcoin channel on satellite radio would work well, there is no need for a dedicated satellite.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
December 02, 2010, 08:12:26 PM
#5
Post blocks to alt.bitcoin Smiley
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