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Topic: DE-MERIT? (Read 551 times)

member
Activity: 126
Merit: 10
January 27, 2018, 10:43:21 PM
#29
Without a doubt de-merit would just turn BCT into an echo chamber.

You say something an active group doesn't agree with? Demerit. I dare you to just try to tell the Bitconnect crowd something negative before the cards fell in a demerit world. You would get eaten alive.

Is it wise to do something that the authority figures here do not like ? I mean if you know what works here and you want to gain higher levels, it makes more sense to follow that. As a member of the forum, you have to follow the rules here whether you like them or not. And those rules are going to be made by a few people who own this forum. Even if the majority of the members do not like this change, the decision is not going to be reversed till it effects those people.

Right, everything entirely depends on who the authority figures are. I guess I am old-school and don't really like a centrally controlled body policing what people have to say.
copper member
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1874
Goodbye, Z.
January 27, 2018, 02:03:27 PM
#28
I get what you're saying but I think you know quite well that with all the current tools in place - Patrol page, reporting to mods, Meta, etc - there are still shithole sections of this forum where anything goes. Altcoin threads for example. I can't see how adding one more thing to patrol is going to help.
Two more things quickly come to mind, ponzi scams being pushed into the IBG section instead of being outright deleted (yes I know, that is forum moderation policy and I have to accept that),
or the gambling discussion sub (which I partly suggested myself, but I'm not so sure about it's benefits anymore).

I think the moderators of those mentioned sections are doing a good job given what they have face on a day to day basis, so dont misunderstand this as me blaming them directly for the state of certain subs or sub-child.
mprep especially, I imagine has to have quite some patience and nerves to keep the upper hand on all the altcoin stuff going down. I've got mad respect for that.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
January 27, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
#27
I'm worried that a centralized approach (via staff or select "militia") isn't gonna solve the problem and/or create some inefficient extra layer, like the Scam Accusations. Some parts of the forum are already pretty much unmoderated, unchecked by DT, and will likely have rampant merit abuse because nobody of the 20 or 50 "militia" users will ever set foot there.
Theymos already created a page that is de facto a merit patroller page.
It's the Top-merited recent replies/TMR topics statistics page.
A merit patroller doesn't have to browse all sections, they can browse this lists (although they could be made a bit more easily browsable (again, the comparison to the Patrol page comes to mind).
When they spot something that is out of the ordinary, they can read those posts in context of their respective threads/sections.
Should they think something is wrong there, they start investigating and conducting other patrollers for their opinion, then eventually take action.

So all I need to avoid detection is to keep my merit abuse under 30? Grin

I get what you're saying but I think you know quite well that with all the current tools in place - Patrol page, reporting to mods, Meta, etc - there are still shithole sections of this forum where anything goes. Altcoin threads for example. I can't see how adding one more thing to patrol is going to help.
copper member
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1874
Goodbye, Z.
January 27, 2018, 11:25:27 AM
#26
I'm worried that a centralized approach (via staff or select "militia") isn't gonna solve the problem and/or create some inefficient extra layer, like the Scam Accusations. Some parts of the forum are already pretty much unmoderated, unchecked by DT, and will likely have rampant merit abuse because nobody of the 20 or 50 "militia" users will ever set foot there.
Theymos already created a page that is de facto a merit patroller page.
It's the Top-merited recent replies/TMR topics statistics page.
A merit patroller doesn't have to browse all sections, they can browse this lists (although they could be made a bit more easily browsable (again, the comparison to the Patrol page comes to mind).
When they spot something that is out of the ordinary, they can read those posts in context of their respective threads/sections.
Should they think something is wrong there, they start investigating and conducting other patrollers for their opinion, then eventually take action.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
January 27, 2018, 11:19:54 AM
#25
it would be abused hugely if it was given to everyone and people would just bot it or devote posts from anyone they just don't like

If it's based on the same sMerits (1:10 ratio or whatever) - is that really going to be worse than potentially abusing positive merit? Negative merit abusers would be more visible so easier for merit sources to notice and perhaps avoid spreading merits to users who abuse the system. Farming positive merits might go unnoticed much further. Either case would require the abusers to put in some serious work to earn those (probably very scarce) sMerits to begin with.

I'm worried that a centralized approach (via staff or select "militia") isn't gonna solve the problem and/or create some inefficient extra layer, like the Scam Accusations. Some parts of the forum are already pretty much unmoderated, unchecked by DT, and will likely have rampant merit abuse because nobody of the 20 or 50 "militia" users will ever set foot there.
full member
Activity: 420
Merit: 171
January 27, 2018, 11:04:21 AM
#24
I was kinda challenged when this new feature merit appears and now there is a suggestion about demerit thingy, I know devs can evaluate greater things than this like what sir lutpin stated, but isn't that too difficult? We already have trust rating and merit adding, demerit option is god level, (bestow upon us thy mercy) However, superiors knows the best I hope that everything will be fair and square.

-
Merit (pump) demerit (dump)
Respectfully yours.
legendary
Activity: 2954
Merit: 3060
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
January 27, 2018, 10:04:04 AM
#23
Personally, I'm against a publicly available demerit option. I think, as mentioned several times already, the abuse potential is just way too high.
People currently are worried about possible abuse with the positive merit system, add negative merits, there are many more angles for abuse and malicious actors.
This is however just my opinion and expectation.

I think it would be very useful for staff to demerit certain members or maybe it's also given to just a select group of other very trusted users, but it would be abused hugely if it was given to everyone and people would just bot it or devote posts from anyone they just don't like, but maybe people could vote for others and only the most trusted/quality contributors could have the privilege as well. I think it would be useful for staff as I would rather demerit someone than give them a ban for stupid shit. Maybe people would learn to stop creating stupid threads about Pepsi vs Coke or Do you prefer your parents or bitcoin if they lose merit every time they do (actual threads I've had to trash both multiple times).
full member
Activity: 1442
Merit: 108
January 27, 2018, 09:51:55 AM
#22
Without a doubt de-merit would just turn BCT into an echo chamber.

You say something an active group doesn't agree with? Demerit. I dare you to just try to tell the Bitconnect crowd something negative before the cards fell in a demerit world. You would get eaten alive.

Is it wise to do something that the authority figures here do not like ? I mean if you know what works here and you want to gain higher levels, it makes more sense to follow that. As a member of the forum, you have to follow the rules here whether you like them or not. And those rules are going to be made by a few people who own this forum. Even if the majority of the members do not like this change, the decision is not going to be reversed till it effects those people.
member
Activity: 126
Merit: 10
January 27, 2018, 09:46:27 AM
#21
Without a doubt de-merit would just turn BCT into an echo chamber.

You say something an active group doesn't agree with? Demerit. I dare you to just try to tell the Bitconnect crowd something negative before the cards fell in a demerit world. You would get eaten alive.
hero member
Activity: 1638
Merit: 756
Bobby Fischer was right
January 26, 2018, 04:04:49 PM
#20
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-forum-is-not-so-good-2015233
Above example is one of the "spamyiest" stuff One can find among the boards.
Above example makes me actual LOL, like every efing time Grin
Literal day-brightner yet obviously written with signature or activity bump agenda.

Now...who will decide if my potential merits given to such spam are legit?
Who has such power and authority to decide what poor poptok1 has to like and what he should not to like?
As you can see with above example, there still can be spam that could get likeable, there can be spam that is useful ( I know, no example here), life isn't black and white.  Likes terminator... wow, my dream job... where to apply?  Cool
-I need your posts, your merits. and your accounts password.
-You forgot to say please.

I think there is no hassle, wait at least a quarter, like May maybe and than revise, inspect the data.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
January 26, 2018, 03:54:59 PM
#19
Sounds good, just give it to everyone. E.g. 1 "termination" for every 10 sMerits you send. Sure there might be some limited abuse but IMHO it's better than another centralized layer of patrollers.
Giving it to everyone would just be a bad idea. For example, Lauda and The Pharmacist and actmyname would be targeted by people they have found out. Although, I'm usually all for decentralization I just can't see it easily being implemented without a lot of abuse.  

However, the suggestion of getting 1 termination for every 10 sMerits you get means the account would at least need to be credited for constructive posts which might just prevent abuse. It would likely need to be set higher than that to prevent several alt accounts targeting certain users.

1:10 ratio wouldn't get those Lauda haters too far. Perhaps the airdropped sMerits should be excluded, i.e. only the newly earned sMerits would give you termination rights.

And it should be 1 per 10 sMerits sent (not just earned) to encourage positive merits before negative.

Yes, so far Lutpins suggestion is the best one, if there is an effective control over the fact that the Merit Patrollers use their power only for what it was thought for.
Giving anyone the ability to demerit on the other side would create a permanent state of civil war in the forum - I would really recommend to avoid that.

That's a big "IF". I'm quite certain that establishing a new caste of patrollers would cause more friction. There is already a lot of whining about merit sources and their selection process, not to mention the perennial butthurt about DT. Adding another layer should be avoided if possible. Otherwise just give the termination ability to the mods.
member
Activity: 102
Merit: 12
January 26, 2018, 03:53:41 PM
#18
Giving anyone the ability to demerit a post would likely just cause absolute chaos among the users of this forum. I'm certainly not a big fan of that.

Lutpins suggestion is a pretty good one. Let's give the new system a few months to get used too and see how the sources are managing it. Then possibly selecting the 'best' or most active sources and granting them the ability to become "merit patrollers"

Yes, so far Lutpins suggestion is the best one, if there is an effective control over the fact that the Merit Patrollers use their power only for what it was thought for.
Giving anyone the ability to demerit on the other side would create a permanent state of civil war in the forum - I would really recommend to avoid that.
staff
Activity: 3304
Merit: 4115
January 26, 2018, 03:48:34 PM
#17
Sounds good, just give it to everyone. E.g. 1 "termination" for every 10 sMerits you send. Sure there might be some limited abuse but IMHO it's better than another centralized layer of patrollers.
Giving it to everyone would just be a bad idea. For example, Lauda and The Pharmacist and actmyname would be targeted by people they have found out. Although, I'm usually all for decentralization I just can't see it easily being implemented without a lot of abuse.  

However, the suggestion of getting 1 termination for every 10 sMerits you get means the account would at least need to be credited for constructive posts which might just prevent abuse. It would likely need to be set higher than that to prevent several alt accounts targeting certain users.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
January 26, 2018, 03:45:02 PM
#16
What I could get behind on the other hand is giving a few people the ability to terminate single merited posts.
We could call this group "merit patrollers" (the quickest way would be giving sources the option, but there could be an independent selection forming another group with different users).
This should be a limited ability both in availability (users allowed to do so) and volume (every patroller gets X terminations per month).
Terminations carry more weight than regular merit, and should thus be further limited (the average source size is ~200 sMerit per month, so termination could go at 10% of that, 20 on average).

Sounds good, just give it to everyone. E.g. 1 "termination" for every 10 sMerits you send. Sure there might be some limited abuse but IMHO it's better than another centralized layer of patrollers.
staff
Activity: 3304
Merit: 4115
January 26, 2018, 03:37:46 PM
#15
Giving anyone the ability to demerit a post would likely just cause absolute chaos among the users of this forum. I'm certainly not a big fan of that.

Lutpins suggestion is a pretty good one. Let's give the new system a few months to get used too and see how the sources are managing it. Then possibly selecting the 'best' or most active sources and granting them the ability to become "merit patrollers"
copper member
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1874
Goodbye, Z.
January 26, 2018, 03:33:57 PM
#14
I see your point and the problem you are addressing is real. However how to ensure that the "terminator" would act according to the spirit you've outlined and not to his own personal biases?
Being a terminator/merit patroller (I'll use terminators in my post) is a privilege, and can be taken away from you at any given time.
As there is likely a low amount of terminations (few people able to do it, with limits per person), there should be a collective page publicly showing all terminations (as part of the merit stats).
In first instance, terminators would regulate and check themselves. If a terminator goes out of line, the others report it to theymos and the position is taken away from them/their actions are being undone.

I have to point out that this very OP is calling for a way to delete the merit that the OP of DeepOnion is receiving by its community.
This is not exactly the case you have been advocating. You may like or not like DeepOnion, but that is not a case of accounts farming and the OP of their thread is not exactly irrelevant since it has got so much follow up.
My reply is indeed only indirectly related the OP.
I took this thread to suggest the system as it is one of the threads currently discussing options to reverse merit or introduce negative merits.
It simply was the first thread when I opened Meta that discusses this, so I decided to post in here (instead of opening yet another thread about the same topic).

Which remind us of the old Latin quote: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? = Who controls the controllers?
Theymos.



One question though - do you suggest this happen only with already Merited posts? i.e. if a 'Terminator' (sounds fun terminology!) sees a spammy/extremely low quality and irrelevant post, and it isn't Merited, can they still 'DeMerit' that post, so the total Merit of the account goes down? Or is this just for already Merited posts only?
No, this would only apply to merited posts. You could terminate a post without merit and thus keep it from getting any merit in the future (as long as you have the terminator privilege),
But keep in mind that the terminations you have are limited, so it would likely be a waste of a termination.
You could not remove merit from someone by terminating one of their posts that isn't merited in the first place.

If it's the latter, then may I present my suggestion from another thread - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/merit-and-discoverability-2828453. This will help the 'Terminators' police the forum much more effectively.
Reading up on this, I like the idea.
I called the usergroup "merit patrollers" because of something like this. The Patrol page lets you browse posts from Newbies and is meant to ease up reporting/moderation.
A Merit Patrol page could be formed that shows merited pages and eases up merit-"moderation".
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1045
January 26, 2018, 03:29:33 PM
#13
Personally, I'm against a publicly available demerit option. I think, as mentioned several times already, the abuse potential is just way too high.
People currently are worried about possible abuse with the positive merit system, add negative merits, there are many more angles for abuse and malicious actors.
This is however just my opinion and expectation.



What I could get behind on the other hand is giving a few people the ability to terminate single merited posts.
We could call this group "merit patrollers" (the quickest way would be giving sources the option, but there could be an independent selection forming another group with different users).
This should be a limited ability both in availability (users allowed to do so) and volume (every patroller gets X terminations per month).
Terminations carry more weight than regular merit, and should thus be further limited (the average source size is ~200 sMerit per month, so termination could go at 10% of that, 20 on average).

What do I mean with "terminate"?
Right now, when I come across a post that is obviously spammy and was merited, I cannot do anything about it. I might spot someone farming merit with their alt account, or just giving it to spam posts to troll.
I can report that, I can investigate that, but I cannot do anything against the action itself, directly.
I might give the people involved negative trust for abusing the merit system, but that is only an indirect option and shouldn't be utilized, imo.
The merit is given, the result stays the same. I'm powerless there.

This is a huge difference to the trust system (I dont like that comparison, but it seems near), where I can counter positive ratings with a negative one and the other way around.
So what if I could counter merit? I don't mean giving demerit directly, but rather reversing a given merit rating from other people.

The way I could see this work is that when we have a spam post merited by one or more people, merit patroller have the option to terminate this post.
The merit received (and the sMerit) would at this point be taken away from the user that wrote the post, but not given back to the sender (as a punishment).
A termination would be shown right after the list of merits collected (example "Merited by TMAN (5), SFR10 (2), asu (2), TryNinja (2); Terminated by theymos (-11").
A termination would also mean that the post can no longer be merited.
However, termination are specific to posts, you decide that one post shouldn't have merit, not that one user shouldn't have it

I like this suggestion.

One question though - do you suggest this happen only with already Merited posts? i.e. if a 'Terminator' (sounds fun terminology!) sees a spammy/extremely low quality and irrelevant post, and it isn't Merited, can they still 'DeMerit' that post, so the total Merit of the account goes down? Or is this just for already Merited posts only?

If it's the latter, then may I present my suggestion from another thread - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/merit-and-discoverability-2828453. This will help the 'Terminators' police the forum much more effectively.
member
Activity: 102
Merit: 12
January 26, 2018, 03:22:40 PM
#12
However, termination are specific to posts, you decide that one post shouldn't have merit, not that one user shouldn't have it

Lutpin, I honestly think that this would be decent system, since it's both fair and quite hard to abuse

I see your point and the problem you are addressing is real. However how to ensure that the "terminator" would act according to the spirit you've outlined and not to his own personal biases?
I have to point out that this very OP is calling for a way to delete the merit that the OP of DeepOnion is receiving by its community. This is not exactly the case you have been advocating. You may like or not like DeepOnion, but that is not a case of accounts farming and the OP of their thread is not exactly irrelevant since it has got so much follow up. I'm using this example just to reiterate my question: how would you ensure that the "terminator" would act according to the spirit you've outlined and limit its actions to the sort of cases you've mentioned?
Which remind us of the old Latin quote: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? = Who controls the controllers?
full member
Activity: 406
Merit: 114
January 26, 2018, 02:36:14 PM
#11
I think De-Merit is Okay, but to prevent abuse, I think it should be limited to one De-Merit per user given to another user.  In other words, I can't go and De-Merit all your posts because you said something I didn't agree with ... or at least, multiple de-merits from the same user wouldn't count against the other person's merit score.  But if multiple people want to De-Merit a user, then it can add up over time.  
copper member
Activity: 3948
Merit: 2201
Verified awesomeness ✔
January 26, 2018, 02:35:37 PM
#10
Lutpin, I honestly think that this would be decent system, since it's both fair and quite hard to abuse. I mean, sure, you could find the most merrited post from a user and terminate it to prevent a user from ranking up, but that would still apply to only one post. It would be a waste of "merit terminations" and easy to track (since there is so little to go around).
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