Debt Deal Reached | Bitcointalksearch.org

lemonginger

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Quote from: NghtRppr on August 05, 2011, 01:15:30 PM

Quote from: Babylon on August 05, 2011, 11:31:27 AM

I can tell you have never spent any time being poor.

No, I haven't and I'm glad because apparently being poor makes you quite stupid. Actually, it's more likely that being stupid leads to being poor. There's a correlation there at least. Either way, you can assure me all you like but you're wrong. The justice system is being utilized by the poor more often because they have a higher crime rate and there are more of them. So, naturally, they should pay for what they use instead of free-riding off of the rich.

Actually the biggest predictor of wealth in the United States is whether or not your parents were rich -- it has one of the lowest rates of social mobility and highest rates of inequality of any industrialized country. Furthermore, wealth has huge correlations with education, health, likelihood of being exposed to violence, etc.

If you would like the citations, I'll go ahead and pull them out.

Your suggestion that the poor pay for the tools of their own oppression would be laughable, if it wasn't so cruel.

The "vulgar libertarian" force is strong within you bitcoin4cash

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carson#.22Vulgar_libertarianism.22

netrin

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Ah Cheers to the People's Bitcoin Revolution, where the proletariat and bourgeoisie see eye to eye and drink from the same cup.

NghtRppr

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Quote from: Babylon on August 05, 2011, 11:31:27 AM

I can tell you have never spent any time being poor.

No, I haven't and I'm glad because apparently being poor makes you quite stupid. Actually, it's more likely that being stupid leads to being poor. There's a correlation there at least. Either way, you can assure me all you like but you're wrong. The justice system is being utilized by the poor more often because they have a higher crime rate and there are more of them. So, naturally, they should pay for what they use instead of free-riding off of the rich.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: Babylon on August 05, 2011, 12:26:37 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on August 05, 2011, 11:34:48 AM

Quote from: Babylon on August 05, 2011, 11:31:27 AM

Quote from: NghtRppr on August 03, 2011, 03:11:39 PM

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

The rich can pay for the cops, the courts, and the military.

Right because you don't use any of that. I forgot about the fact that I get a police escort every time I go to the bank. Oh wait, I don't. If I want any extra security, I have to pay for that.

How many rich neighborhoods have the cops there daily making arrests vs. poor neighborhoods? Many of us live in gated communities with a private guard at the gate. We don't need the cops there.

How many court appearances are by the poor after raping, robbing or driving around drunk, etc vs. the rich? As for the military, I don't see how any of us benefits from murdering people on the other side of the planet. The only thing we need is a coastguard and a few nukes pointed at anyone thinking of launching theirs at us.

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

We should also include the fact that welfare keeps the masses from rioting/stealing, so the rich, who would be the ones hurt by the rioting and stealing can pay for that too.

So, pay money or get assaulted or stolen from? That's called extortion. If I want extra security, I'll pay for it, just like I already do.

Quote from: SgtSpike on August 03, 2011, 02:26:46 PM

I agree regarding infrastructure - corporations definitely use a large chunk compared to the average consumer.

Like I said, I don't have any employees. My infrastructure consists of a few web servers which I pay for and a computer at home, which I also pay for. Some companies may use a lot of a resources but that doesn't translate to every millionaire being the owner of one of those companies.

I can tell you have never spent any time being poor. I assure you, the cops, courts, and military are NOT protecting the interests of the poor or the working class.

And I can assure you, they are.

See? I can make statements without anything to back them up too!

Except that you are coming from a position of privilege and have admitted you have no experience being poor.

I've been robbed several times, the police did nothing. The fact that the majority of arrests and court appearances are the poor is one more sign that these systems work for the rich, against the poor.

Poor criminals go to jail, rich ones pay small fines and go back to committing crimes.

I am?

I am upside-down on my mortgage. I have student loans that I am trying to pay off. I currently have negative monthly cash flow, despite my efforts to find extra avenues of incomes and cut items from the budget list (it's been a couple of years since I've bought a new article of clothing).

Yes, excuse me from coming from the perspective of the privileged.

Maybe the reason the poor go to jail more is that they commit more crimes? Probably because they are more desperate, and are just doing whatever it takes to survive. Ever think about that?

You have proven nothing so far.

Babylon

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Quote from: SgtSpike on August 05, 2011, 11:34:48 AM

Quote from: Babylon on August 05, 2011, 11:31:27 AM

Quote from: NghtRppr on August 03, 2011, 03:11:39 PM

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

The rich can pay for the cops, the courts, and the military.

Right because you don't use any of that. I forgot about the fact that I get a police escort every time I go to the bank. Oh wait, I don't. If I want any extra security, I have to pay for that.

How many rich neighborhoods have the cops there daily making arrests vs. poor neighborhoods? Many of us live in gated communities with a private guard at the gate. We don't need the cops there.

How many court appearances are by the poor after raping, robbing or driving around drunk, etc vs. the rich? As for the military, I don't see how any of us benefits from murdering people on the other side of the planet. The only thing we need is a coastguard and a few nukes pointed at anyone thinking of launching theirs at us.

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

We should also include the fact that welfare keeps the masses from rioting/stealing, so the rich, who would be the ones hurt by the rioting and stealing can pay for that too.

So, pay money or get assaulted or stolen from? That's called extortion. If I want extra security, I'll pay for it, just like I already do.

Quote from: SgtSpike on August 03, 2011, 02:26:46 PM

I agree regarding infrastructure - corporations definitely use a large chunk compared to the average consumer.

Like I said, I don't have any employees. My infrastructure consists of a few web servers which I pay for and a computer at home, which I also pay for. Some companies may use a lot of a resources but that doesn't translate to every millionaire being the owner of one of those companies.

I can tell you have never spent any time being poor. I assure you, the cops, courts, and military are NOT protecting the interests of the poor or the working class.

And I can assure you, they are.

See? I can make statements without anything to back them up too!

Except that you are coming from a position of privilege and have admitted you have no experience being poor.

I've been robbed several times, the police did nothing. The fact that the majority of arrests and court appearances are the poor is one more sign that these systems work for the rich, against the poor.

Poor criminals go to jail, rich ones pay small fines and go back to committing crimes.

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: Babylon on August 05, 2011, 11:31:27 AM

Quote from: NghtRppr on August 03, 2011, 03:11:39 PM

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

The rich can pay for the cops, the courts, and the military.

Right because you don't use any of that. I forgot about the fact that I get a police escort every time I go to the bank. Oh wait, I don't. If I want any extra security, I have to pay for that.

How many rich neighborhoods have the cops there daily making arrests vs. poor neighborhoods? Many of us live in gated communities with a private guard at the gate. We don't need the cops there.

How many court appearances are by the poor after raping, robbing or driving around drunk, etc vs. the rich? As for the military, I don't see how any of us benefits from murdering people on the other side of the planet. The only thing we need is a coastguard and a few nukes pointed at anyone thinking of launching theirs at us.

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

We should also include the fact that welfare keeps the masses from rioting/stealing, so the rich, who would be the ones hurt by the rioting and stealing can pay for that too.

So, pay money or get assaulted or stolen from? That's called extortion. If I want extra security, I'll pay for it, just like I already do.

Quote from: SgtSpike on August 03, 2011, 02:26:46 PM

I agree regarding infrastructure - corporations definitely use a large chunk compared to the average consumer.

Like I said, I don't have any employees. My infrastructure consists of a few web servers which I pay for and a computer at home, which I also pay for. Some companies may use a lot of a resources but that doesn't translate to every millionaire being the owner of one of those companies.

I can tell you have never spent any time being poor. I assure you, the cops, courts, and military are NOT protecting the interests of the poor or the working class.

And I can assure you, they are.

See? I can make statements without anything to back them up too!

Babylon

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Activity: 938

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CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!

Quote from: NghtRppr on August 03, 2011, 03:11:39 PM

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

The rich can pay for the cops, the courts, and the military.

Right because you don't use any of that. I forgot about the fact that I get a police escort every time I go to the bank. Oh wait, I don't. If I want any extra security, I have to pay for that.

How many rich neighborhoods have the cops there daily making arrests vs. poor neighborhoods? Many of us live in gated communities with a private guard at the gate. We don't need the cops there.

How many court appearances are by the poor after raping, robbing or driving around drunk, etc vs. the rich? As for the military, I don't see how any of us benefits from murdering people on the other side of the planet. The only thing we need is a coastguard and a few nukes pointed at anyone thinking of launching theirs at us.

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

We should also include the fact that welfare keeps the masses from rioting/stealing, so the rich, who would be the ones hurt by the rioting and stealing can pay for that too.

So, pay money or get assaulted or stolen from? That's called extortion. If I want extra security, I'll pay for it, just like I already do.

Quote from: SgtSpike on August 03, 2011, 02:26:46 PM

I agree regarding infrastructure - corporations definitely use a large chunk compared to the average consumer.

Like I said, I don't have any employees. My infrastructure consists of a few web servers which I pay for and a computer at home, which I also pay for. Some companies may use a lot of a resources but that doesn't translate to every millionaire being the owner of one of those companies.

I can tell you have never spent any time being poor. I assure you, the cops, courts, and military are NOT protecting the interests of the poor or the working class.

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: NghtRppr on August 03, 2011, 03:11:39 PM

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

The rich can pay for the cops, the courts, and the military.

Right because you don't use any of that. I forgot about the fact that I get a police escort every time I go to the bank. Oh wait, I don't. If I want any extra security, I have to pay for that.

How many rich neighborhoods have the cops there daily making arrests vs. poor neighborhoods? Many of us live in gated communities with a private guard at the gate. We don't need the cops there.

How many court appearances are by the poor after raping, robbing or driving around drunk, etc vs. the rich? As for the military, I don't see how any of us benefits from murdering people on the other side of the planet. The only think we need is a coast guard and a few nukes pointed at anyone thinking of launching theirs at us.

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

We should also include the fact that welfare keeps the masses from rioting/stealing, so the rich, who would be the ones hurt by the rioting and stealing can pay for that too.

So, pay money or get assaulted or stolen from? That's called extortion. If I want extra security, I'll pay for it, just like I already do.

Quote from: SgtSpike on August 03, 2011, 02:26:46 PM

I agree regarding infrastructure - corporations definitely use a large chunk compared to the average consumer.

Like I said, I don't have any employees. My infrastructure consists of a few web servers which I pay for and a computer at home, which I also pay for. Some companies may use a lot of a resources but that doesn't translate to every millionaire being the owner of one of those companies.

Hey man, I'm on your side. That was a general statement, but I'm not saying something like, "corporations should all be taxed on infrastructure because they all use it." More like, "those who use the infrastructure the most should be taxed the most, and that'll likely end up being mostly corporations."

NghtRppr

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Activity: 504

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Elder Crypto God

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

The rich can pay for the cops, the courts, and the military.

Right because you don't use any of that. I forgot about the fact that I get a police escort every time I go to the bank. Oh wait, I don't. If I want any extra security, I have to pay for that.

How many rich neighborhoods have the cops there daily making arrests vs. poor neighborhoods? Many of us live in gated communities with a private guard at the gate. We don't need the cops there.

How many court appearances are by the poor after raping, robbing or driving around drunk, etc vs. the rich? As for the military, I don't see how any of us benefits from murdering people on the other side of the planet. The only thing we need is a coastguard and a few nukes pointed at anyone thinking of launching theirs at us.

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

We should also include the fact that welfare keeps the masses from rioting/stealing, so the rich, who would be the ones hurt by the rioting and stealing can pay for that too.

So, pay money or get assaulted or stolen from? That's called extortion. If I want extra security, I'll pay for it, just like I already do.

Quote from: SgtSpike on August 03, 2011, 02:26:46 PM

I agree regarding infrastructure - corporations definitely use a large chunk compared to the average consumer.

Like I said, I don't have any employees. My infrastructure consists of a few web servers which I pay for and a computer at home, which I also pay for. Some companies may use a lot of a resources but that doesn't translate to every millionaire being the owner of one of those companies.

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: JeffK on August 03, 2011, 02:18:24 PM

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

Quote from: NghtRppr on August 02, 2011, 05:05:03 PM

Quote from: JeffK on August 02, 2011, 04:25:12 PM

The problem is those paying at a much lower rate than us, even though they 'make' much more money and actually do much less work.

It's amazing that you can delude yourself into thinking that while you're paying $1,000 in taxes and I'm paying $100,000 in taxes somehow I'm getting a better deal and do less work than you. Just because I don't dig ditches or flip hamburgers doesn't mean the way I make money is any less work. In fact, if your job is so important, why are you making peanuts? Clearly the world values my labor more than yours, hence the fatter paycheck. If you didn't have people like myself that make most of the money, who would you leech off of?

Quote from: Smalleyster on August 02, 2011, 04:38:44 PM

And that is why I support any politician, no matter how distasteful, that supports an across the board flat tax with no deductions.

Flat tax is a joke. You pay 10% of nothing and I pay 10% of a million dollars. There's nothing fair about that. How about we each pay the same dollar amount, or better yet, pay for the services we actually use?

I like that last one, pay for the services you use. The rich can pay for the cops, the courts, and the military. The corporations can shoulder the lions share of infrastructure. We should also include the fact that welfare keeps the masses from rioting/stealing, so the rich, who would be the ones hurt by the rioting and stealing can pay for that too. Hmm, I think that leaves the middle and lower classes with consumer safety boards, a portion of infrastructure, and the FDA.

^^this was more or less the point I was trying to make, bitcoin2cash. Very few of our public services have the best interests of the lower 99% of the population in mind, therefore they should pay much less for them.

I completely disagree. Poor people need cops and courts and military just as much as rich people do. I would even argue that poor people need it MORE, as there is more crime (domestic abuse, drug dealing, murder, theft/burglaries, etc) in poor, slummy neighborhoods than there is in rich, upscale neighborhoods. Just look at any county's emergency call map.

I agree regarding infrastructure - corporations definitely use a large chunk compared to the average consumer.

I don't think welfare is the corporation's responsibility. That's just rewarding people for being bad, which doesn't make any sense. Welfare should be eliminated entirely. If a particular corporation wants to avoid riots from all the evil they are doing in the world ( Roll Eyes

), they could fund a charity or start their own soup kitchen.

JeffK

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I never hashed for this...

Quote from: Babylon on August 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

Quote from: NghtRppr on August 02, 2011, 05:05:03 PM

Quote from: JeffK on August 02, 2011, 04:25:12 PM

The problem is those paying at a much lower rate than us, even though they 'make' much more money and actually do much less work.

It's amazing that you can delude yourself into thinking that while you're paying $1,000 in taxes and I'm paying $100,000 in taxes somehow I'm getting a better deal and do less work than you. Just because I don't dig ditches or flip hamburgers doesn't mean the way I make money is any less work. In fact, if your job is so important, why are you making peanuts? Clearly the world values my labor more than yours, hence the fatter paycheck. If you didn't have people like myself that make most of the money, who would you leech off of?

Quote from: Smalleyster on August 02, 2011, 04:38:44 PM

And that is why I support any politician, no matter how distasteful, that supports an across the board flat tax with no deductions.

Flat tax is a joke. You pay 10% of nothing and I pay 10% of a million dollars. There's nothing fair about that. How about we each pay the same dollar amount, or better yet, pay for the services we actually use?

I like that last one, pay for the services you use. The rich can pay for the cops, the courts, and the military. The corporations can shoulder the lions share of infrastructure. We should also include the fact that welfare keeps the masses from rioting/stealing, so the rich, who would be the ones hurt by the rioting and stealing can pay for that too. Hmm, I think that leaves the middle and lower classes with consumer safety boards, a portion of infrastructure, and the FDA.

^^this was more or less the point I was trying to make, bitcoin2cash. Very few of our public services have the best interests of the lower 99% of the population in mind, therefore they should pay much less for them.

Babylon

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Quote from: NghtRppr on August 02, 2011, 05:05:03 PM

Quote from: JeffK on August 02, 2011, 04:25:12 PM

The problem is those paying at a much lower rate than us, even though they 'make' much more money and actually do much less work.

It's amazing that you can delude yourself into thinking that while you're paying $1,000 in taxes and I'm paying $100,000 in taxes somehow I'm getting a better deal and do less work than you. Just because I don't dig ditches or flip hamburgers doesn't mean the way I make money is any less work. In fact, if your job is so important, why are you making peanuts? Clearly the world values my labor more than yours, hence the fatter paycheck. If you didn't have people like myself that make most of the money, who would you leech off of?

Quote from: Smalleyster on August 02, 2011, 04:38:44 PM

And that is why I support any politician, no matter how distasteful, that supports an across the board flat tax with no deductions.

Flat tax is a joke. You pay 10% of nothing and I pay 10% of a million dollars. There's nothing fair about that. How about we each pay the same dollar amount, or better yet, pay for the services we actually use?

I like that last one, pay for the services you use. The rich can pay for the cops, the courts, and the military. The corporations can shoulder the lions share of infrastructure. We should also include the fact that welfare keeps the masses from rioting/stealing, so the rich, who would be the ones hurt by the rioting and stealing can pay for that too. Hmm, I think that leaves the middle and lower classes with consumer safety boards, a portion of infrastructure, and the FDA.

Babylon

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Quote from: Littleshop on July 31, 2011, 09:12:19 PM

Quote from: Meatpile on July 31, 2011, 08:48:07 PM

If the majority of Americans cant get their richest 1% to give up tax cuts by november, they are officially the dumbest people on the planet.

Some tax increases should be included OR stopping the wars. Killing people 1/2 the world away is expensive. You need to go after some big ticket items to make the budget even close to balanced.

Personally I would prefer AND.

I don't think this bill is going to make anything any better, but it is still preferable to a default.

NghtRppr

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Quote from: JeffK on August 02, 2011, 11:22:52 PM

Because you, being a millionaire, who has employees who use public services too, get much more benefit from the public services than someone else?

I don't have any employees. I only do business with customers directly through my website or with other businesses such as payment processors. Try again.

Even if I did have employees, they use public services whether or not I hire them. In fact, since they aren't on welfare and food stamps, because I gave them a job, they are using less public services. You don't actually have a clue what you're talking about. You haven't done any kind of calculations. You're just pulling these claims out of your ass.

Quote from: JeffK on August 02, 2011, 11:22:52 PM

the fact that they almost always pay much less than their share of taxes

Their "share" is only what they've used in services. They don't owe you anything extra. Stop being a leech and support yourself. Newflash: having a few million dollars is not a big deal and it certainly doesn't put me in league with the fantasy rich fatcat robber barrens you've gotten yourself in a frenzy over. I don't take government handouts. I'm not lobby congress to get special favors. I'd be more than happy to pay for what I use but I'm expected to pay many times more than that because of people like you that are simply jealous of success.

The Script

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Quote from: SgtSpike on August 03, 2011, 02:35:03 AM

On the topic of this thread: Darn. :\ I was hoping they'd run out of money so they would HAVE to start cutting out all the crap that we don't need the government running/giving away.

You knew it wasn't going to happen. It's all a giant game of chicken. Sad

Gary North has some great insight on this: http://lewrockwell.com/north/north1013.html

SgtSpike

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On the topic of this thread: Darn. :\ I was hoping they'd run out of money so they would HAVE to start cutting out all the crap that we don't need the government running/giving away.

netrin

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Quote from: JeffK on August 02, 2011, 11:22:52 PM

Quote from: NghtRppr on August 02, 2011, 05:05:03 PM

Flat tax is a joke. You pay 10% of nothing and I pay 10% of a million dollars. There's nothing fair about that. How about we each pay the same dollar amount, or better yet, pay for the services we actually use?

...millionaire, because if not your defense of them and the fact that they almost always pay much less than their share of taxes is pathetic

You have to admit, Bitcoin2cash's comment was consistent. He's not saying he shouldn't pay for his benefit... but pay for the services he actually uses.

I choose not to own a car and resent having to pay for roads I do not use. I acknowledge the indirect benefit (such as transporting goods I buy). If each user of the road were directly taxed, then I would pay for my fair share through higher prices. Perhaps that is less efficient and I will be taxed more...

JeffK

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Activity: 350

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I never hashed for this...

Quote from: NghtRppr on August 02, 2011, 05:05:03 PM

Quote from: JeffK on August 02, 2011, 04:25:12 PM

The problem is those paying at a much lower rate than us, even though they 'make' much more money and actually do much less work.

It's amazing that you can delude yourself into thinking that while you're paying $1,000 in taxes and I'm paying $100,000 in taxes somehow I'm getting a better deal and do less work than you. Just because I don't dig ditches or flip hamburgers doesn't mean the way I make money is any less work. In fact, if your job is so important, why are you making peanuts? Clearly the world values my labor more than yours, hence the fatter paycheck. If you didn't have people like myself that make most of the money, who would you leech off of?

Quote from: Smalleyster on August 02, 2011, 04:38:44 PM

And that is why I support any politician, no matter how distasteful, that supports an across the board flat tax with no deductions.

Flat tax is a joke. You pay 10% of nothing and I pay 10% of a million dollars. There's nothing fair about that. How about we each pay the same dollar amount, or better yet, pay for the services we actually use?

Because you, being a millionaire, who has employees who use public services too, get much more benefit from the public services than someone else? The rich get much more benefits from almost every public service, therefore they should pay more.

I hope to any deity that may exist that you are actually a millionaire, because if not your defense of them and the fact that they almost always pay much less than their share of taxes is pathetic

SgtSpike

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Quote from: Smalleyster on August 02, 2011, 05:59:19 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on August 02, 2011, 05:32:08 PM

A tax based on usage would ensure efficiency and government leanness. On the downside, it would discourage consumer spending and lower GDP.

Still, it would be a very, very good thing if it were to happen.

That is generally called a VAT or sales/use tax. Been happening for years.

I mean as a whole for all governmental services though.

Smalleyster

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Quote from: SgtSpike on August 02, 2011, 05:32:08 PM

A tax based on usage would ensure efficiency and government leanness. On the downside, it would discourage consumer spending and lower GDP.

Still, it would be a very, very good thing if it were to happen.

That is generally called a VAT or sales/use tax. Been happening for years.

Topic: Debt Deal Reached (Read 3726 times)