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Topic: DECENTRALIZED crypto currency (including Bitcoin) is a delusion (any solutions?) - page 49. (Read 91144 times)

legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
If he doesn't give you the information you require then just sit back and ignore him after stating that fact.

Insinuating I am an idiot for asking. Go reread the thread again.

I said numerous times they could carry on without me, but you can read the thread and see he continued to try to stick it to me that monsterer understood and I didn't. I know monsterer was just trying to guess what the design is. That is not the same as a holistic understanding. If Fuserleer doesn't call me dumb for asking "can anyone understand what Fuserleer described?", then none of the drama occurred.

I even said numerous times that I was not demanding he provide any details before he was ready. Monsterer was asking for a summary. I was expressing that the summary was ambiguous because my intellect (and experience in designing consensus for crypto) is high enough to know that there are details that I need to know which have not been provided.

Get your facts straight.

Yes, but you also have missed the part where I stated those that matter have seen this as well and those that haven't don't matter. Wink

BTW, added to above post, this thread is moving fast.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
If he doesn't give you the information you require then just sit back and ignore him after stating that fact.

Insinuating I am an idiot for asking. Go reread the thread again.

I said numerous times they could carry on without me, but you can read the thread and see he continued to try to stick it to me that monsterer understood and I didn't. I know monsterer was just trying to guess what the design is. That is not the same as a holistic understanding. If Fuserleer doesn't call me dumb for asking "can anyone understand what Fuserleer described?", then none of the drama occurred.

I even said numerous times that I was not demanding he provide any details before he was ready. Monsterer was asking for a summary. I was expressing that the summary was ambiguous because my intellect (and experience in designing consensus for crypto) is high enough to know that there are details that I need to know which have not been provided.

Get your facts straight.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1000
Blah blah blah.

If you're making fiat or btc, who cares?  Winning's winning.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
Too much non productive name calling and hand waving. You guys are adults and you look like school kids. Anonymint has a point but cannot civilly state it. Fuserleer is beating around the bush but was just being coy IMO (I think monsterer was just playing alone to get all the info) and this has just escalated into a mud slinging contest which is in no-ones interest.

TPTB, take a breath and stop letting this shit get to you, we see your under alot of stress but getting worked up about it is detrimental to both your body and mind which (as you have stated) is not at peak.

Fuserleer is correct in stating that you started this thread for discussion of all avenues and not just yours. So he is within the purview of that umbrella to make his case for his thoughts being analyzed as well as anyone elses. If he doesn't give you the information you require then just sit back and ignore him after stating that fact. Those that matter are capable of following this thread and those that aren't, well are not worth the effort to be perfectly frank.

I see no reason why Monsterer cannot continue coaxing Fuserleer's methodology (even if it's morphing while being discussed) because as you have stated "The goal is to solve this problem". Let those two discuss that on a sidechain until it gets to a point where you have the information you need to make a critical analysis.

Personally I would like to see CFB back in hear and hear more on the tangle debate as I have not seen his retort to the inevitability of the tangle diverging. That sounds like a game changer to me and if true will make IOTA a complete waste off effort as well as time and resources. Unless it is just a money grab which in that case it seems to be working.

AFA your (Anonymint) arguments that this is an impossible task that has no solution well I think you are jumping to a conclusion, even though I cannot follow all your arguments (I'm a dumbass) I believe there is always a solution as long as the problem can be defined. And if anyone can solve these issues you have raised I believe you have the capability to do it. I would also recommend getting all this into one whitepaper so anyone jumping in can be brought up to speed on your thoughts without you having to jump around linking your scattered posts every few posts. I think you need a technical secretary to organize all this information as it looks like that may be time consuming. Get an apprentice.

Anyway thanks for the debate so far guys, I was intrigued and enjoying it until it dissolved into a pissing contest of childish proportions.

Added:
...Btw, both he and Tom Hedges stated they were amazed how productive I was. The first day on the job I had constructed a massive printer driver testing suite and had fixed the printer driver issues in Painter for the Windows version. But I was also younger, healthier, more energetic, more willing to work on stuff that I didn't necessarily have to believe so strongly in to be inspired. As we get older, we become much more selective about what drives our passion, because we have less energy to give (or at least that is the case for me perhaps because I am burnt out on my life's wild journey)....

True that, many forums I won't lean forward to get the keyboard nor bother to goto anymore.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
I was simply highlighting the similarities to help people understand why it is a solid theory.

Bwahaha.

Unfortunately it seems, that has now been misunderstood entirely.

Eludication of details is not important.  Roll Eyes

A ledger state and a chain of blocks are very different things, with very different mechanics.

Can we make up our mind what we are describing here. I was entirely accurate when I predicted you jerking me around with a moving target.

Ultimately though, at least to the more technical among us, it should have been quite obvious

There you go again blaming someone else for your lack of organization.
 
If you aren't prepared, then don't disrupt.

that there was at least some form of object, which was dictating which data set was correct in the event of a conflict due to the fact of votes.  Otherwise, what is the purpose of the votes in the first place?

You are still in design mode and don't even yet understand your own design well enough to explain it from a holistic conceptualization.

You piss your lack of preparation on others and then play political ad hominem games.

When you've matured and are ready to play with the big boys, then let me know.

Btw, your design is flawed. I am waiting for your white paper.

I'm going to create a new thread at some point and move this discussion there.  I just wanted to clear up this hornets nest I created a little by likening ledgers to blocks.

Release the comprehensive white paper and stop doing what Spoetnik says:

Your full of shit.

And voting crap ?

[...]

I think all you want here is people to give the idea to copyright.
This routine is often employed by guys here who want to make their coin but want pre-approval.
They are concerned otherwise it will get ignored / flamed.

[...]

Fuck this shit.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1016
So eMunie uses blocks after all, this thread would've been a whole lot shorter if that was clear from the beginning. Smiley

No, it doesn't.  I was simply highlighting the similarities to help people understand why it is a solid theory.  Unfortunately it seems, that has now been misunderstood entirely.

If I was to liken it to anything, it would be Ripple.  You could also compare Ripple's ledger to blocks in the same way that I did for eMunie's.

A ledger state and a chain of blocks are very different things, with very different mechanics.

Ultimately though, at least to the more technical among us, it should have been quite obvious that there was at least some form of object, which was dictating which data set was correct in the event of a conflict due to the fact of votes.  Otherwise, what is the purpose of the votes in the first place?

I'm going to create a new thread at some point and move this discussion there.  I just wanted to clear up this hornets nest I created a little by likening ledgers to blocks.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1007
I want to write that white paper.

That's good, but it's a shame you can't talk about the ambiguity; I think it's possible you may have overlooked something in your analysis. There again, I may be plainly wrong, but I am happy to be proved wrong.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
This does need to elucidated unequivocally. I don't think it is my role to impact Iota's launch. Come-from-Beyond demonstrates a very high S/N ratio, he has brought important ideas to the community which have even aided my design, and who knows I might even want to work with him. Let him get a return on his investment. I have said enough for the time being. I can say more at a future date.

I don't think a general discussion about why you see blocks as essential will be seen as an attack on Iota. I'd also like to know for my own learning process what ambiguities in particular you are referring to with double spends in a generic system with multiple chains of POW.

I want to write that white paper.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1007
This does need to elucidated unequivocally. I don't think it is my role to impact Iota's launch. Come-from-Beyond demonstrates a very high S/N ratio, he has brought important ideas to the community which have even aided my design, and who knows I might even want to work with him. Let him get a return on his investment. I have said enough for the time being. I can say more at a future date.

I don't think a general discussion about why you see blocks as essential will be seen as an attack on Iota. I'd also like to know for my own learning process what ambiguities in particular you are referring to with double spends in a generic system with multiple chains of POW.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
I want to thank ArticMine for his two posts in this thread. The first one was instrumental in focusing me on an aspect of my design that makes it clear I have a winner. The second one supported my statement to wait until all details are released on eMunie. So apparently we have an astute and mature individual ArticMine. If I am not mistaken he is affiliated with Monero. I wish I could work with those Monero devs, they are very smart. But unfortunately there are some ideological differences and if there are too many cooks in the kitchen, it becomes difficult to gain consensus on what to do. For example, my ideas about distribution might cause a lot of discord (and any way we can't delete the coins and redistribute Monero or Aeon). I think I need to prove something first and if so then other A listers will see the opportunity.

So eMunie uses blocks after all, this thread would've been a whole lot shorter if that was clear from the beginning. Smiley

Good to see that someone gets the point of why I am annoyed with Fuserleer's games. I asked him to release all the details so I wasn't playing a game of hide & seek. He then starts insinuating that I am dumb because I don't want to play the 25 questions game that monsterer wants to play.

I used to work (in the adjacent cubicle) for 150+ IQ genuises such as this guy (the guy who created what is now Corel Painter):

http://relativisticobserver.blogspot.com/2011/12/2011-year-of-steve.html

These people are very productive and don't tolerate any bullshit such as wasting time when not presenting the holistic elucidation.

Btw, both he and Tom Hedges stated they were amazed how productive I was. The first day on the job I had constructed a massive printer driver testing suite and had fixed the printer driver issues in Painter for the Windows version. But I was also younger, healthier, more energetic, more willing to work on stuff that I didn't necessarily have to believe so strongly in to be inspired. As we get older, we become much more selective about what drives our passion, because we have less energy to give (or at least that is the case for me perhaps because I am burnt out on my life's wild journey).

At that time I was working with Lee Lorenzen who had created a porting layer so that Painter was written to the Mac API (even for the GUI) and this would run on Windows. You may recall Lee Lorenzen was the creator of Ventura Publisher, one of the world's first desktop publishing software (the other major one back then was Aldus Page Maker). At around the same time, I had created WordUp desktop publishing/word processing software for the Atari ST and Google will confirm to you that it was popular and had significant global market share. It shipped on 5 floppy disks and was written primarily in 68000 assembly code and towards the later stages features were being added in C.

I was known in the Painter work for being able to fix the most entangled bugs that couldn't be solved by tracing in a debugger but required insight into very convoluted algorithms of Painter. I also amicably trained Priscill Shi (fresh college grad) and she became our most prolific bug fixer given the conceptual insights I taught her on how to think about debugging. I also on my initiative served as a liason to Tech Support dept forging friendships and communicating key points that only developers could know. I was the all around guy.

So please don't accuse me of not being capable. The issue is a matter of scale of work, marketing issues, and also factors around me personally being not so strong and not so good situation. But if there is a will and a design worth fighting for, there is way.

I had become unnecessarily dismayed recently thinking that every design I had considered was imperfect. I now realize the imperfections in my design are superior to Bitcoin in critically important ways and that for as long as the mining power stays in the hands of the payers, then we have a fighting chance to keep it decentralized.

One need only graph some complex scenarios to visualize this effect.

Any chance you can produce such an example to make this clear?

edit: I'd also like clarification on why you see the need for blocks (where a block is defined as a grouping of more than 1 transaction)?

This does need to elucidated unequivocally. I don't think it is my role to impact Iota's launch. Come-from-Beyond demonstrates a very high S/N ratio, he has brought important ideas to the community which have even aided my design, and who knows I might even want to work with him. Let him get a return on his investment. I have said enough for the time being. I can say more at a future date.

You are so sensitive like a female.

Hm, haven't you just commited a crime by posting this? I believe in the USA even a little insinuation that males and females are not equal is punished pretty hard.

Lol. Well you know if I succeed in creating any decentralized design TPTB may take revenge on me. But the point after all is what the design can accomplish for everyone else. And if I get to fuck a few more virgins before I die, then I parting with more than Obama given that Michelle is a man.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
You are so sensitive like a female.

Hm, haven't you just commited a crime by posting this? I believe in the USA even a little insinuation that males and females are not equal is punished pretty hard.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1007
In your 10,000 example above, you'd have to process at least 10,000 challenges per voting session, and you still only get 1 vote in that session per "node".

Each voting session will generally last between 30-60 seconds depending on whats happening network wide and if there are any conflicts.

If there is one challenge per vote, you have this 10,000 ports attack mitigated to some degree; but I'm confused why you even need the trust stuff on top of this, I don't think it adds anything?

edit: but lets move this discussion to an emunie thread so as not to derail this one further
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1007
One need only graph some complex scenarios to visualize this effect.

Any chance you can produce such an example to make this clear?

edit: I'd also like clarification on why you see the need for blocks (where a block is defined as a grouping of more than 1 transaction)?
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
So eMunie uses blocks after all, this thread would've been a whole lot shorter if that was clear from the beginning. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
Anonymint atit again haha this place hasnt changed.. Good stuff
sr. member
Activity: 473
Merit: 250
Sodium hypochlorite, acetone, ethanol
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
You really are low!

You are so sensitive like a female.

Where are the technological details?

All this drama is good for nothing.

You are measuring everyone's ego like a true B-lister instead of focusing on the technology and communicating efficiently. Elbows & acrimony instead of production.

You and monsterer derail the thread with a cat & mouse 25 questions game. All you had to do was either publish the white paper or decline to. Instead you want to fill up the thread with a very inefficient process.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1016
Thanks for posting that PRIVATE conversation (omitting your original PM to me I see), I knew you would.

You really are low!  Anything for attention and to attempt to discredit anyone else in the name of perceived superiority and authority.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
All you've ever done in comparison is a website

Oh really. Your research of my career is very myopic. First of all, Coolpage.com was not just a website, it was a downloadable software written in C++. Also I have worked on other million user commercial products such as what is now Corel Painter.

Ah you are 34. That explains a lot. Read on...

You are certainly full of it!!

I don't want to be, nor ever did wish to be part of your "gang".  Even if you had good ideas, working with you side by side would be enough to drive me to a noose within a week, if not shorter.

You are by far one of the most arrogant, condescending, patronizing, egoistic, obtuse, self worshiping individuals I've EVER had the misfortune to have to encounter, and believe me sir, I've encountered many indeed.   In the past I was consoled by the fact that dealing with these individuals was necessary to achieve some goal, unfortunately here there is no such comfort.

All you do is attempt to assert authority over others by shouting and aiming negative comments towards them, and not once I've I ever seen anything of you to back up any of your exaggerated claims about how smart you are, or how skilled, or anything else for that matter.  Its just noise!

For example, the paper you attempted to sell for $20,000 that included some holy grail which was as it was turned out, done by Monero months before you.  You then spent the next month trying to discredit theirs instead of just accepting the fact that they beat you to it (we still haven't seen the paper you claimed to have writing so that could be total bollocks too!) The "code" you published on Git, anyone could of done that, no deity skills required there.  

You've spent 3 years talking, and trying to convince everyone on here that you are some God, when if you are as good as you state you are, you could have proved it with a product.

Finally just for the record, as you seem to have a very high regard for ego justified by past achievement, and as this is a private conversation....here we go:

I've touched more lives in my 34 years time here on earth than you ever will.  I'd wager that most of the planet have used something in their hands, that I had design, development or technical input into, and millions likely still do today, everyday and I've plenty of fuel left in the tank to touch plenty more.

How does that compare?  All you've ever done in comparison is a website and lots of talking about how great you are.  Your ego is your +1 everywhere, because you feel naked and vulnerable without it.  I don't need an ego, despite my achievements I know that constantly telling everyone about ones achievements makes you sound like a total douche, and plus people then are only interested in you for what you did, not what you are doing, WHO WANTS THAT?  Weak people.  I check mine in at the door, I don't need one as I'm happy for all to see whatever they see.

I suggest that we refrain from each others threads from now on.

Note Eric S. Raymond is the 150+ IQ progenitor of the term "open source" and his famous writings Cathedral and the Bazaar, Magic Cauldron, etc..

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1404

Ego is for little people
Posted on 2009-11-09 by Eric Raymond

When I got really famous and started to hang out with people at the top of the game in computer science and other fields, one of the first things I noticed is that the real A-list types almost never have a major territorial/ego thing going on in their behavior. The B-list people, the bright second-raters, may be all sharp elbows and ego assertion, but there’s a calm space at the top that the absolutely most capable ones get to and tend to stay in.

[...]

No. It’s more that ego games have a diminishing return. The farther you are up the ability and achievement bell curve, the less psychological gain you get from asserting or demonstrating your superiority over the merely average, and the more prone you are to welcome discovering new peers because there are so damn few of them that it gets lonely. There comes a point past which winning more ego contests becomes so pointless that even the most ambitious, suspicious, external-validation-fixated strivers tend to notice that it’s no fun any more and stop.

[...]

And yet, there are people out there who are going to read the previous paragraph and think “Oh, that’s Eric’s ego again. The blowhard.” I’ve had a lot of time to get used to such reactions over the last decade, but it’s still hard for me not to collapse in helpless laughter at the implied degree of Not Getting It.

[...]

I think there are a couple of different reasons people tend to falsely attribute pathological, oversensitive egos to A-listers. Each reason is in its own way worth taking a look at.

The first and most obvious reason is projection. “Wow, if I were as talented as Terry Pratchett, I know I’d have a huge ego about it, so I guess he must.” Heh. Trust me on this; he doesn’t. This kind of thinking reveals a a lot about somebody’s ego and insecurity, alright, but not Terry’s.

There’s a flip side to projection that I think of as the “Asimov game”. I met Isaac Asimov just a few months before he died. Isaac had long been notorious for broadly egotistical behavior and a kind of cheerful bombast that got up a lot of peoples’ noses. But if you ever met him, and you were at all perceptive, you might see that it was all a sort of joke. Isaac was laughing inside at everyone who took his “egotism” seriously – and, at the same time, watching hungrily for people who could see through the self-parody, because they might – might – actually be among the vanishingly tiny minority that constituted his actual peers. The Asimov game is a constant temptation to extroverted A-listers; I’ve been known to fall into it myself. It’s not really anybody’s fault that a lot of people are fooled by it.

Another confusing fact is that though A-listers may not be about ego or status competition, they will often play such games ruthlessly and effectively when that gets them something they actually want. The something might be more money from a gig, or a night in the hay with an attractive wench, or whatever; the point is, if you catch an A-lister in that mode, you might well mistake for egotism some kinds of display behavior that actually serve much more immediate and instrumental purposes. Your typical A-lister in that situation (and this includes me, now) is blithely unconcerned that a bystander might think he’s egotistical; the money or the wench or the whatever is the goal, not the approval or disapproval of bystanders.

Finally, a lot of people confuse arrogance with ego. A-listers (and I am including myself, again, this time) are, as a rule, colossally arrogant. That is, they have utter confidence in their ability to meet challenges that would humble or break most people. Do not be fooled by the self-deprecating manner that many A-listers cultivate; it is a mask adopted for social purposes, mostly to avoid freaking out the normal monkeys. But this arrogance is not the same as egotism; in fact, in many ways it is the opposite. It is possible to be arrogant about one’s abilities compared to the statistically average human being and the range of challenges one is likely to encounter, but deeply and genuinely humble when dealing with peers or contemplating the vastness of one’s own ignorance and incapability relative to what one could imagine being. In fact, this combination of attitudes is completely typical of the A-listers I have known.

The behaviors most people think of as “egotism” tend to be driven out by arrogance rather than motivated by it. If you really believe bone-deep that you are superior, you don’t act insecure and twitchy and approval-seeking, because you just aren’t! Arrogance doesn’t even have to be justified to drive out egotism – it just has to be there. It’s all the more powerful an egotism-banisher when the arrogance is actually well-justified by the A-lister’s track record. Thus, egotists are usually people who have not yet established their capability to themselves, or who had that confidence in the past but are beginning to doubt it.

Finally, I think a lot of people need to believe that A-listers invariably have flaws in proportion to their capabilities in order not to feel dwarfed by them. Thus the widely cherished belief that geniuses are commonly mentally unstable; it’s not true (admissions to mental hospitals per thousand drop with increasing IQ and in professions that select for intelligence, with the lowest numbers among mathematicians and theoretical physicists) but if you don’t happen to be a genius yourself it’s very comforting. Similarly, a dullard who believes A-listers are all flaky temperamental egotists can console himself that, though he may not be smarter than them, he is better. And so it goes.

Ego is for little people. I wish I could finish by saying something anodyne about how we’re all little when you come down to it, but I’d be fibbing. Yeah, we’re all little compared to a supernova, but that’s beside the point. And yeah, the most capable people in the world are routinely humbled by what they don’t know and can’t do, but that is beside the point too. If you look at how humans relate to other humans – and in particular, how they manage self-image and “ego” and evaluate their status with respect to others…it really is different near the top end of the human capability range. Better. Calmer. Sorry, but it’ s true.
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