Topic: Definition 1: A Real Bitcoin USER is a MINER / RACER! - page 2. (Read 1048 times)

No - they cannot and they do not really need to. We do not need 1Mil cars on the track.

In terms of the strict real Bitcoin USER, they ARE already there, have spent lots of money = full voting power (their cars !)

Rest is economic shopper / mostly minority shareholder. No real voting power, but vote with their feet and sell if race gets boring.
Maybe their power is coming up with a petition to change things, but they simply cannot fork of the tracks or change cars and rules.
But: They could mask their heads with funny caps and destroy things.  

Yeah the current situation is users vs miners, but I don't agree with an user who mines can only be called a real bitcoin user. Do you think each and every bitcoin user can afford mining equipments? I am not a hodler and trying hard not to troll, but be realistic.

The bitcoin users who hodl, trade, use it as a medium of exchange, but not mine are as integral part of bitcoin system as the node operators, miners, and developers.

The car analogy is cool, yeah bitcoin users are mere share holders.


Without being race team owners or track supporters, but just by being shareholders, contributing capital to the racing company, the non-mining bitcoin users are keeping the racing company alive, the rest of the so called owners and supporters are making a profit from the shareholders contribution. To put it bluntly, no bitcoin users = no developers, no node operators, no miners and vice-versa.

Bitcoin users and miners are interdependent. Bitcoin is not some privately held company where 99% of shareholders are the owners, it is a decentralized network and if some fools with infinitive men power and energy resources believes that they can independently control the network then they are fooling around.

Yeah, I do agree that mining does give an user the power to be an internal part of the network, are bitcoin users/not miners internal or external? In both the case like I said, interdependency is all that matters.

In short, for me, each and every user who supports bitcoin, has a stake in bitcoin, no matter how small it is, and opposes centralization is a real bitcoin user including miners as far as they agree up on the last part.

Sorry guys - this is definition just a bit too abstract for some....

I try to tell it better in a nice race-car story came into my mind with that. Try to find you in that story.


Some designer, sitting in his little house in a very quiet village,  thought about an open race contest, to get some fun for all the few people in the neighborhood.

So he founded a 'racing company' with max 21 Mio shares, designed rules and also realized a flexible racing track, 1-2 cars to race on and some loge for the visitors that should be able to bet on the cars.

These people can only bet with parts of their shares and needed to be seated around the track. Seats were limited to 1 Mio for what reason ever...

The race was started every 10 min repeatedly, the people had to pass control gates to be seated always new into the limited betting-loges, place the bets (+fees) by throwing their shares onto the track, the cars had to collect as much as possible and the winner takes all fees and gets new 50 shares on top, than all betting shareholders have to exit and queue them again...

There is no rule on how the cars should look like, and first cars where just cheap as possible. First year there were only 2-3 friends, building up competitive teams, cars and stuff around, but mostly doing that race alone, mostly without any betting shareholders, mostly because it was fully unknown.

After some time more and more people joined that 'community', since it was good open fun and  simple rules.
More and more racing teams appeared building better cars that were faster and could collect the bets faster.
And also the Chinese joined with 'infinitive' men power and energy resources...

The people came to watch from outside, to join (buy shares) & bet on the cars, trade the shares, helped to build new cars, improve the tracks. But finally it was clear that only a limited number of distinct racing teams could survive the material fight, and it is pretty much clear that you need at least 10-20 different teams to have a real race & bet condition, attracting more and more people. Who want's to watch just 3 cars ?

Only design issue still: The limited seats for the inner circle to bet on the race.

Who should be in charge to change things here? Who sits in the old design office (having no own team in the race anymore)? Who has most at stake and risk their lives and cars on any decent but crappy change?

Where are you seated?

Most of us are simple share holders - no real race-team owners or track supporters, no REAL BITCOINERS,  with lots to loose and hard to get out the game.

These full teams I try to define as the real users in charge. Not just a simple shareholder that can sell all his shares in a minute....



  

i disagree with being a miner part. with the difficulty increase and the electricity cost and the sound, heat and space mining requires it is not possible for everyone to mine.
but i agree that a real bitcoin user should:
- run a full node if he can
- more importantly: to educate themselves. this means understanding some basics and the code and how things work.
- how much bitcoin you own is of least importance.


you do not understand what "validating a transaction" means. nor the importance of the "back-bone" of the (decentralized) bitcoin network.

i was curious so google image searched "walmart shopper"
hmmm..

i dont think ill be eating dinner tonight after seeing what i seen
(this post is made purely for humour purposes)

Frankly Franky1 is correct most of the times other than when he's wearing the shilling hat, people will only run a full node if they're earning

Something by doing it, I don't see any reason why should a user runs a node if he/she has no incentive other than validating transactions?

I could do the validating by checking my transactions in several block explorer with different nodes which they're running. recently I received

A tx on bc.info and I was able to see it there but not on electrum or other explorer, it was like I never received it and I could spend whatever

Was on my balance without the need for that tx to confirm first. so if I was running a node it would be the same as what electrum did for me

It didn't show that tx, that's when I knew I got scammed/conned and trolled by the sender. moreover we can run full nodes on vps so can

Others, untrustworthy and dishonest miners,. on another note, what stops other miners from rejecting a block mined by me? what do I need

To be safe and make sure when I find a block other miners wouldn't reject it cause orphanage, what if a more powerful miner finds the same

Block a few seconds after me but given their superiority they push their own block, how could I as a small pool operator make sure other pools

Also validate my block, if the majority of miners with their nodes work together against me that's when many individuals running nodes comes

Handy because they're the most honest nodes and they would never collude with miners to kick me out of mining business, but guess who will

Benefit the most silently in the background? companies selling their vps in an exponential rate.

And thus, having lost the debate, the Big Blockers retreat into a semantic fantasy land, consoling themselves by redefining the users of bitcoin as "trolls" and those who serve them by recording transactions as "users" of bitcoin. In other news, Walmart shoppers are trolls and the only customers of Walmart are the cashiers manning the checkout aisles...

having coin on a privkey and thats it..  is meaningless.. no matter what the vote is your always going to have 'coin'
having coin makes no difference to the network structure direction or security.

it definitely doesnt make you as important as being a miner, pool, economic or active node.

EG if there was a split. even satoshi who has not been around for 7 years will have 'coin' on both sides

Nope, anyone who owns Bitcoin is already a Bitcoin user. Period. It doesn't matter if you run a full node, mine or just hodl, what really matters is the market, people will judge what chain is worthy, and miners will have to mine it if they want to operate in profit. So, if August 1st will result in a split, users will decide what chain is the real Bitcoin, not some privileged miners. What you are proposing here is just increase of centralization, and the current situation is already not very good.

lol

hv_ you are mostly on the correct lines. but lets clarify things for those stuck in the past

1.
miners (ASICS) DO NOT CONTAIN A HARD DRIVE(that ended in circa 2013) nor do the see the blockchain. all they do is receive a block hash plus some very minimal data, to create the solved block hash.
they do not form blocks, do not validate transaction and do not collate transactions into blocks.. a miner just hashes a bit of blockheader data in simple terms.

2.
a POOL does the previous block validation, transaction validation, collate tx's for current block creation. but a pool does not directly create the hash of the block.. thats what miners(asics) do

3.
economic nodes are active nodes, but where the person running it has a economic part of the network by running a business/service/exchange that adds utility to bitcoin for users

4.
active users just run nodes that validate and relay blocks, validate and relay transactions (think of them like torrent seeds)

5.
users are mainly anyone with funds, whether they use any kind of wallet available and usually just leach off the network by not actively being part of the network security symbiotic relationship of the above 4 parts (these are prunned/outofdate/lite/no witness/cludgy/spv node users)


so if you want to be a fully vested and involved user, be part of all 5 elements of the symbiotic relationship (well atleast 1,3,4,5)

i dont think miners would be able to dump the btc price since the block reward is only 12.5 btc and the share would split on pools , also miners cant full dump since the difficulty is so high now you need a bitcoin farm to solo pool and find a block by your own

I m not saying, that bitcoin does not need plenty of hodlers, traders and other typ of users thats the surrounding economy.
I only say, that full users  = miners have lots of investment at stake, not your 1 bitcoin you might hodl.
And no, they not just Dump big scale, that would tank the price and lower their value at stake.

ow yea...
then miners should be limited to use BTC only for them selves and not selling them ...
miners they don't do shit to btc price but they dump all time that is all.
And people who are prooviding initiatives for those miners are real users who buy those BTC.
BTC miners doesn't need BTC they want just USD how they fuck you are calling them only users.
I would called them full dumpers. Economy is like it is and miner =/= user.
Miners provides service for users. Your definition is fuked up.
Without users you won't have any miners, because no one will pay you for electricity.
Without miners users we can live we ca go back to descop mining i don't see it that bad.

All so called 'active user' (UASF) here are either just small Hodlers or Trolls.

why?

Satoshis first job as a real USER was: launch a miner ( full client )

All following code / task splits were only to optimize things and share tasks ( miner, node, wallet, hodl ), but the biggest users invested most in mining also because of incentives.

So to claim to be a full Bitcoin user, you should :

Run a full node, mine and hodl. Be a maximal supporter of the network and scale the shit!

Just runnign a Rasp PI and own less than say e.g. 1 Bitcoin is nice and a good start, but does not qualify enough to say : full user.

Finally, these full users should also do full risk checks about any code, hardware and all the rest and decide what to set into production -> their risk!

BTW, beeing a miner safes your ownings best!