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Quote from: Deprived on October 12, 2011, 08:20:10 PM

Quote from: Lolcust on October 12, 2011, 07:47:03 PM

I still have no power to conjure extra coins, while trusted nodes allow author to force changes at a whim

You already have 7 mill+ of them - why would you NEED to conjure more (obviously if you managed to sell those 7mill then you would - but don't think you've manged that so far)?

I'm not claiming you INTEND to cash out the 7 mill premined/pregenned - but if you DO intend to cash out on the chain then selling those is of far more importance than creating even more (unsellable) coins.

And a huge tbx dump occured in last 2days, coincidence?

Deprived

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Quote from: Lolcust on October 12, 2011, 07:47:03 PM

I still have no power to conjure extra coins, while trusted nodes allow author to force changes at a whim

You already have 7 mill+ of them - why would you NEED to conjure more (obviously if you managed to sell those 7mill then you would - but don't think you've manged that so far)?

I'm not claiming you INTEND to cash out the 7 mill premined/pregenned - but if you DO intend to cash out on the chain then selling those is of far more importance than creating even more (unsellable) coins.

johnj

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Quote from: Deprived on October 12, 2011, 07:44:39 PM

You "theoretically" having a way to decentralize control of your slush-fund is in no way the same as it being decentralized. Once you no longer have control over it THEN you have the right to criticize SC2 (on that issue - you obv have the right to criticize it on all its other flawas already).

TBX and SC2 both have one person controlling a large number of pre-gernerated coins. Spin it how you like - but until you no longer have the OPTION to sell/transfer them you're in the same boat. Talk of how you 'could' lose control of them carries no weight with me: talk's cheap - action is what convinces me.

Slightly different boat, as TBX doesn't take coins directly from miners. CH's fund grows -directly- from mining, whereas Lolcusts does not. Though I agree the centralized point is valid.

Lolcust

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Hillariously voracious

I still have no power to conjure extra coins, while trusted nodes allow author to force changes at a whim

Deprived

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Quote from: Lolcust on October 12, 2011, 01:15:51 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I got no problem w/ concept of CPF.

Make a CPF that doesn't involve a centralized, implicit-trust, digital fiat system and it is a great idea. If the cost of CPF is destroying everything good about crypto-currency then the price is too high.

Like saying:
"Eat dogshit and I will feed this baby".
"I am not eating dog shit."
"So you don't support feeding babies?"

Well, while my fun-d is sorta centralized (AF and coblee found a rather elegant solution to sorta-decentralizing laundry part of the fund) and does involve implicit trust (not so much in me but in enlightened self-interest of mine), it is not fiat.

I can't make "even moar tee-bee-exes" at a whim.

So in theory, you should like TBX more than SC2 Cheesy

You "theoretically" having a way to decentralize control of your slush-fund is in no way the same as it being decentralized. Once you no longer have control over it THEN you have the right to criticize SC2 (on that issue - you obv have the right to criticize it on all its other flawas already).

TBX and SC2 both have one person controlling a large number of pre-gernerated coins. Spin it how you like - but until you no longer have the OPTION to sell/transfer them you're in the same boat. Talk of how you 'could' lose control of them carries no weight with me: talk's cheap - action is what convinces me.

Lolcust

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I got no problem w/ concept of CPF.

Make a CPF that doesn't involve a centralized, implicit-trust, digital fiat system and it is a great idea. If the cost of CPF is destroying everything good about crypto-currency then the price is too high.

Like saying:
"Eat dogshit and I will feed this baby".
"I am not eating dog shit."
"So you don't support feeding babies?"

Well, while my fun-d is sorta centralized (AF and coblee found a rather elegant solution to sorta-decentralizing laundry part of the fund) and does involve implicit trust (not so much in me but in enlightened self-interest of mine), it is not fiat.

I can't make "even moar tee-bee-exes" at a whim.

So in theory, you should like TBX more than SC2 Cheesy

Spacy

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I got no problem w/ concept of CPF.

Make a CPF that doesn't involve a centralized, implicit-trust, digital fiat system and it is a great idea. If the cost of CPF is destroying everything good about crypto-currency then the price is too high.

Like saying:
"Eat dogshit and I will feed this baby".
"I am not eating dog shit."
"So you don't support feeding babies?"

If you find a good working way to operate a decentralized CPF, I will support the idea

Spacy

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Activity: 168

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 12, 2011, 11:05:47 AM

Quote from: Spacy on October 12, 2011, 10:56:49 AM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 11, 2011, 11:10:57 PM

Neither. A rather pathetic method to siphon funds from the SC economy into the personal wallet file of one person.

It all comes down to one question: Do you support the CPF or not? Answer this and you know if SC2 is for you or not.

CPF doesn't exist. The money flows directly into Coin Hunter's wallet. Period. You can dress that up with any fancy acronym you want but the reality is there is a mechanism which transfers wealth to CH. He holds the private keys it is his coins.

Maybe he will use it for good. Maybe he will use it to end world hunger. Maybe he won't.

The real question is do you want to be involved in a centralized digital fiat currency which requires implicit trust on a single person without any checks or balances.

Essentially Coin Hunter's scheme undoes all the advantages of crypto-currency

Non-fiat is now fiat. He can directly manipulate the inflation or deflation of currency to his personal benefit. i.e. Federal Reserve for SC.
Decentralized is no Centralized. He controls all the keys to the castle, all the source code, and if he died tomorrow SC would fail.
Trust-Free is now Implicit Trust. The entire SC system works if you trust Coin Hunter to do the right thing today and always in the future. If he doesn't it fails.

So you don't support the CPF?

DeathAndTaxes

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Activity: 1218

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: Spacy on October 12, 2011, 10:56:49 AM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 11, 2011, 11:10:57 PM

Neither. A rather pathetic method to siphon funds from the SC economy into the personal wallet file of one person.

It all comes down to one question: Do you support the CPF or not? Answer this and you know if SC2 is for you or not.

CPF doesn't exist. The money flows directly into Coin Hunter's wallet. Period. You can dress that up with any fancy acronym you want but the reality is there is a mechanism which transfers wealth to CH. He holds the private keys it is his coins.

Maybe he will use it for good. Maybe he will use it to end world hunger. Maybe he won't.

The real question is do you want to be involved in a centralized digital fiat currency which requires implicit trust on a single person without any checks or balances.

Essentially Coin Hunter's scheme undoes all the advantages of crypto-currency

Non-fiat is now fiat. He can directly manipulate the inflation or deflation of currency to his personal benefit. i.e. Federal Reserve for SC.
Decentralized is no Centralized. He controls all the keys to the castle, all the source code, and if he died tomorrow SC would fail.
Trust-Free is now Implicit Trust. The entire SC system works if you trust Coin Hunter to do the right thing today and always in the future. If he doesn't it fails.

Spacy

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Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on October 11, 2011, 11:10:57 PM

Neither. A rather pathetic method to siphon funds from the SC economy into the personal wallet file of one person.

It all comes down to one question: Do you support the CPF or not? Answer this and you know if SC2 is for you or not.

DeathAndTaxes

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Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Neither. A rather pathetic method to siphon funds from the SC economy into the personal wallet file of one person.

Deprived

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Quote from: doublec on October 11, 2011, 09:05:05 PM

Quote from: johnj on October 11, 2011, 08:56:24 PM

Wait, so the premine was actually 12m?

The coins are apparently unspendable - the client is hardcoded not to allow spending from the premined supernode addresses.

And as it's not open-source, how are we supposed to:

A. Know that's the case.
B. Know that any update doesn't change it?

If the answer to those is "you have to trust me" then WTF is the point of hard-coding it in the first place?

Bobnova

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Yes, you did have a math+reading comprehension failure.

Go back and re-read that post and the one(s) above it.
12m premined for nodes + 1.2m for 1.04 coins + CPF fund = 13.something million.

kano

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Linux since 1997 RedHat 4

Quote from: doublec on October 11, 2011, 09:05:05 PM

Quote from: johnj on October 11, 2011, 08:56:24 PM

Wait, so the premine was actually 12m?

The coins are apparently unspendable - the client is hardcoded not to allow spending from the premined supernode addresses.

Well ... to state the obvious ... unspendable at the moment.

johnj

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Quote from: CoinHunter on October 11, 2011, 10:03:07 AM

That is poor analysis. The CPF is awarded those coins (5% created, 5% from node). The "Trusted nodes" lose money supporting the network and anyone can become a trusted node provided they match the network requirements. It's pure decentralized trust. If it sounds interesting to you then you'll have to wait until tomorrow when all will be revealed.

He's saying that anyone can become a trusted node. Does that mean he has more premined coins to hand out?

Bobnova

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To secure the network as a centralized agency.
That does assume they really are hardcoded that way of course.
They also send the coins each block costs to the CPF, which can spend coins.

johnj

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Quote from: doublec on October 11, 2011, 09:05:05 PM

Quote from: johnj on October 11, 2011, 08:56:24 PM

Wait, so the premine was actually 12m?

The coins are apparently unspendable - the client is hardcoded not to allow spending from the premined supernode addresses.

Ahh, then that changes things maybe.

If the coins are unspendable, then what purpose does their creation serve in the first place?

johnj

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Quote from: Bobnova on October 11, 2011, 08:57:30 PM

Don't forget the (70k? 37k? I can't remember) for the Coin Protection Fund (in RS/CH's wallet) and the 1.2m "for reimbursing 1.04 coins".

So something like 13.3m premine. New record!

Lolcust is gonna be jealous Wink

But holy shit, 13m coins is -crazy-. If this turns out to be true, I would push for CH getting a forum 'scammer' label. This is a gross display of classic bait-n-switch. During the beta, the mining hashes were higher and he announced there would only be ~1m coins. Just yesterday he was bashing GG/TBX, saying that those have more premined which (allegedly) turns out to be a bold-faced lie. Combined with the other half-truths which he spews to deliberately mislead folks.... yeah, I say a 'Scammer' label could possibly be in order.

doublec

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Quote from: johnj on October 11, 2011, 08:56:24 PM

Wait, so the premine was actually 12m?

The coins are apparently unspendable - the client is hardcoded not to allow spending from the premined supernode addresses.

Bobnova

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Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Don't forget the (70k? 37k? I can't remember) for the Coin Protection Fund (in RS/CH's wallet) and the 1.2m "for reimbursing 1.04 coins".

So something like 13.3m premine. New record!

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