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legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 1008
October 03, 2014, 11:06:03 PM
Been gone 2 days and just wasted 1/2 hour trying to catch up, but fuck that 20 more pages of this crap is too much.

Someone wanna sum up whats going on right now?

In the time of chimpanzees
 I was a monkey
 Butane in my veins
So I'm out to cut the junkie
 With the plastic eyeballs,
 Spray-paint the vegetables
 Dog food stalls with the beefcake pantyhose
 Kill the headlights
 And put it in neutral
 Stock car flaming' with a loser
 And the cruise control
 Baby's in Reno with the vitamin D
 Got a couple of couches,
 Sleep on the love seat
 Someone keeps saying'
 I'm insane to complain
 About a shotgun wedding
 And a stain on my shirt
 Don't believe everything that you breathe
 You get a parking violation
 And a maggot on your sleeve
 So shave your face
 With some mace in the dark
 Saving' all your food stamps
 And burning' down the trailer park

 (Yo. Cut it.)
 Soy un perdedor
 I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me?

 (Double-barrel buckshot)

 Soy un perdedor
 I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me?

 Forces of evil in a bozo nightmare
 Banned all the music with a phony gas chamber
 'Cuz one's got a weasel
 And the other's got a flag
 One's on the pole, shove the other in a bag
 With the rerun shows
 And the cocaine nose-job
 The daytime crap of the folksinger slop
 He hung himself with a guitar string
 Slap the turkey-neck
 And it's hanging' from a pigeon wing
 You can't write if you can't relate
 Trade the cash for the beef
 For the body for the hate
 And my time is a piece of wax
 Falling' on a termite
 Who's choking' on the splinters
 Soy un perdedor
 I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me?
 (Get crazy with the cheeze whiz)
 Soy un perdedor*
 I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me?
 (Drive-by body-pierce)
 (Yo, bring it on down)
 Soooooooyy....
 (I'm a driver; I'm the winner;
 Things are gonna change
 I can feel it)
 Soy un perdedor
 I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me?
 (I can't believe you)
 Soy un perdedor
 I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me?
 Soy un perdedor
 I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me?
 (Sprechen sie Deutsch, baby?)
 Soy un perdedor
 I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me?
 (Know what I'm saying'?) 


 


 



newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
October 03, 2014, 11:01:03 PM
...
Strictly by the definitions, the "Bitcoin Mining Problem" (BMP), the partial inversion of SHA256, is O(1), because it does not matter what the algorithm outputs when n is not 256.  Hence, strictly by the definitions, BMP is in P, and therefore is in NP; but is not NP-complete.  And, indeed, it could be solved by a giant table.  Of course, that table is too big to be built in practice; but that obstacle is not relevant for the theory.

I am not aware of any theory that would give a useful estimate of the practical difficulty of solving some problem with fixed-size inputs, like the BMP.  At best, one can prove theoretically that a certain specific shortcut will not work; but there is no way to prove that there are no practical shortcuts.  The only "proof" that BMP is hard is that many people have tried to find such a practical shortcut, for many years, with no success.

It is a terrible misconception to think that "exponential cost" is bigger (or grows faster) than "polynomial cost".  That is true only for "sufficiently large n", but the theory does not say when n is "sufficiently large"; it could be true only for n greater than 10500...

Indeed you are correct that the theory only makes proofs about the asymptotic complexity. It is analogous to Random Oracle proofs of cryptographic properties, because it is in fact proven that no perfect Random Oracle can be created.

We can prove nothing in this universe with absolute certainty because we are not an external observer (study the assumptions of the Shannon-Nyquist theorem for example). I get into the philosophical discussion of this in my article about the Universe.

However, I can analyze at which ranges of n algorithm resource costs scale more like nk versus n log n. Maybe I can even write a proof for a specific algorithm that it scales approximately like some function over a certain range of n. Are you saying that can't be done? I've never tried, I just intuitively looked at the code and could see it was scaling exponentially and one line was the culprit.

You are correct that if our best known algorithms are impractical to implement with current resources, it doesn't mean there isn't any possible algorithm that will. But here I want to take you back to my discovery about the edge of the universe. I was toying around with the duality of the Bottom and Top type in the two difference classes of programming languages and it made me realize that time and the universe is co-inductive and thus the finality or edge is indeterminate, which is analogous to undecidable in the Halting problem.

Thus in the real world all we have are the observations we've made, i.e. the calls we made to our co-inductive universe.

In summary, you were talking about what is provable and I was talking about what is observable. That is why we were talking past each other. And I used the wrong terminology, because O() and NP/P have very specific meanings that are essentially meaningless, because they can't ever be observed. I get your point now, yes indeed.



Edit:

I have seen several computer scientists and students who, trusting that "O(log n) is much better than O(n)", tried to use this  method for things like pattern matching, where each site is an observed pattern, represented by a point in some high-dimensional space.  Only to find that, for that application, the quad-tree method is often much slower than plain sequential search.

In the real-world there is no absolute referential transparency, thus we can never be sure there aren't other input variables other than n that impact the performance.

It turns out that the quad-tree begins to work only if the number of sites n is at least 2d.  It works quite well for n = 1000 and d = 2 or 3; but, for  d = 30, it is a total waste of time unless n is a lot greater than a billion.  Not "smallish" at all...

The big-O notation was invented by pure mathematicians, to describe the limiting behavior of functions from reals to reals, such as the solutions of differential equations.  It was adapted to algorithm analysis by Don Knuth, IIRC.  However, for Knuth it was only a working tool, that would give an idea of the type of formula that had to be determined.  For example, if the number t(n) of inner block executions was found to be O(n2), one could write t(n) ≤ A n2 + B n + C, and then look for suitable values of A, B, and C.  If t(n) was found to be exponential, one would look for a formula like t(n) ≤ A × Bn. An so on.

However, finding those constants requires lots of boring algebra, so Knuth's lazy followers tacitly agreed that finding the big-O of the running time was good enough.  And then came the really lazy ones, who decided that "polynomial time" was all one needed to know.

Ah so you do agree with me that we can apply the concept of approximated scaling to analysis of algorithms, with caveats. Yeah we can't prove anything absolutely.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
October 03, 2014, 10:44:13 PM
Auroracoin (which btw rpietila invested in

He suggests that he didn't. What is your evidence?

Even though I was interested in this before the great pump in March (and would have made up to 100x gains if I had bought), now it is in a "following" mode after crashing back. If I moved to Iceland, I would probably start using it. Not an unconditional "sell" though.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
October 03, 2014, 10:40:46 PM
and.. you couldn't have just contributed to the Cryptonote project itself ?

Certainly not, since the Cryptonote project is and was a premine scam, complete with a fake blockchain, made up "deep web" backstory, forged document signatures, and both overt and covert coin mills pumping out clones to flood the market and try to crowd out any independent competitors (Monero is the only one I can definitively say is in that category, though there could be others), etc. The primary and original purpose of Monero was to take what valid technology Cryptonote had developed (though in many ways unfinished, since they rushed it to market as they saw the window for altcoin premine scams closing) and extract it from the premine scammers who were using it to rip people off (and in the process either inadvertently or deliberately broke their own anonymity tech, as our research showed) as well as continuing development on it with a somewhat less rushed "money grab" schedule.




so you built your beloved Monero clone coin (minor fork) from one of the scammiest coins of all time ?

Exactly right, and that explains why we are even doing it. The technology has merit, the original coin did not.

The people involved with the project are not what you normally think of as clone coin creators. (You are wrong BTW that we had anything to do with NEM or NXT.) We're mostly Bitcoin people, with a smattering of interest in alts here and there. For example, my interest in alts has mostly been limited to mining and dumping dumb alts that other people have created, sometimes directly and sometimes via multipools.



sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
October 03, 2014, 10:40:06 PM
Have your say, enter CryptoFest!

It would appear that the two most 'interesting' stories in crypto at the moment have suddenly collided - "Bluemeanie1 vs NXT" and "BCX vs Monero"

Wow, that's the crypto equivalent of 'Game of Thrones' merging with 'Breaking bad'!!

Everyone, Please feel free to submit an entry to CryptoFest!!

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-cryptofest-short-film-festival-sponsored-by-ora-801933

Quote
Introducing 'Cryptofest': Short Film festival

Sponsored by ORA

http://www.cryptofest.tv/



First Prize - the Palme d'ORA
- 2 bitcoins
- 5 Million ORA assets

People's Choice Award
- 1 bitcoin
- 2.5 Million ORA assets

166,666 ORA assets for each valid entry



Your mission should you choose to accept it
Submit a new short film or multimedia work on the theme of 'Cryptographic currencies'

To help ensure entries are unique & new you must include a "Starfish" as a 'signature item' somewhere in your work.

Conditions
- Your submission must be a new original work

- You can submit as many entries as you want

- Your work must be less than 5 minutes

- You can work in teams, but you can only submit your own work

- You must consent to having your work displayed on ORA affiliated websites

- We might include a small ORA 'watermark' on your video for promotion purposes

- ORA may include your work on a 'festival' DVD (all DVD sales will be in ORA, and go into the ORA charity fund)

- Nothing racist, defamatory, derogatory

- Don't infringe anybodies copyright without permission

- All entries will be vetted for suitability and the organisers decision is final on whether to include a submission in the competition or not

For more information go to http://www.cryptofest.tv/

A BIG thanks to fragORA for making the AMAZING CryptoFest.tv site!!!

legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
October 03, 2014, 10:37:53 PM
You Monero Shills REALLY get off taking credit for Cryptonote don't you ?
In case people don't know Cryptonote was a coin cloning "Platform" designed to make cloning coins easier..
Monero is simply one of many !

There's usually no such thing as bad publicity, however I think in this case, the Monero shills have created an exception to this rule.

Many people I speak to in Crypto are starting to dislike Monero because of all the sock-puppet accounts, whomever is funding this Jihad went too far.

Funny, I see the opposite. All the sockpuppets and retards attacking it are giving it more legitimacy I've seen this thing attacked 3 times (IIRC) since I started watching it and it hasn't faltered.

I'd say the FUd is failing. A minor price drop is nothing more than the weak hands pissing themselves and they will regret it soon enough and buy back in at a loss.

This thread has become a joke.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
October 03, 2014, 10:32:23 PM
and.. you couldn't have just contributed to the Cryptonote project itself ?

Certainly not, since the Cryptonote project is and was a premine scam, complete with a fake blockchain, made up "deep web" backstory, forged document signatures, and both overt and covert coin mills pumping out clones to flood the market and try to crowd out any independent competitors (Monero is the only one I can definitively say is in that category, though there could be others), etc. The primary and original purpose of Monero was to take what valid technology Cryptonote had developed (though in many ways unfinished, since they rushed it to market as they saw the window for altcoin premine scams closing) and extract it from the premine scammers who were using it to rip people off (and in the process either inadvertently or deliberately broke their own anonymity tech, as our research showed) as well as continuing development on it with a somewhat less rushed "money grab" schedule.




so you built your beloved Monero clone coin (minor fork) from one of the scammiest coins of all time ?

wow.. YOU said it not me buddy LOL
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
October 03, 2014, 10:31:41 PM
You ignored my point that each independent coin toss trial outcome is uniformly distributed whereas the Poisson distribution is exponentially distributed.

That is why I asserted that your and xulescu's analogies are inapplicable. Rare trial outcomes in a Poisson distribution occur less often then less rare ones (look at the area under the distribution curve at the tails). Whereas all trial outcomes in a coin toss occur at the same probability.

Ah *snooze*.

Do you really think we're idiots? The analogy was for an error in your modelling that you yourself accepted as valid, not for the numbers.

Er, no I didn't. I said I made no proof whether Poisson distribution is applicable. But note every research paper I read about Bitcoin claims the block chain is a Poisson process.

To my models it makes no difference whatsoever if they're coin tosses, loaded D20's or, indeed, exponentials or Poisson.

And I posited to you that your regression model is blind because you don't know the distribution of the process. You claim there isn't enough entropy to establish one, but that is your assumption. I don't see any proof from you to validate your assumption that block chains are not approximated by Poisson distributions. Why should I believe you when the research papers claim otherwise?

To address your point directly, a uniform distribution CANNOT have a tail by definition.

Exactly I made that point.

In terms of counts, both Poisson and binary distributions have normal tails.

If you mean the Binomial distribution, the random variable is the # of outcomes in a series of trials. I was referring to the distribution of a single trial. In the p=0.5 Bernoulli trial coin toss, the distribution of a trial is uniform—all possible outcomes for each independent trial are equally probable aka uniform. Whereas, for the Poisson trial, the probabilities of the possible outcomes has an exponential tail.

Both also completely fail because they assume complete independence between the samples.

You make two afaik unproven assumptions:

1. Blocks are not significantly independent.

2. Imperfect independence makes the Poisson model a useless approximation.

In the meanwhile you keep wasting your time on this triviality.

I will not let myself be insulted on the math, unless I deserve it (which can happen) in which case I will mea culpa.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
www.dashpay.io
October 03, 2014, 10:30:08 PM
You Monero Shills REALLY get off taking credit for Cryptonote don't you ?
In case people don't know Cryptonote was a coin cloning "Platform" designed to make cloning coins easier..
Monero is simply one of many !

There's usually no such thing as bad publicity, however I think in this case, the Monero shills have created an exception to this rule.

Many people I speak to in Crypto are starting to dislike Monero because of all the sock-puppet accounts, whomever is funding this Jihad went too far.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
October 03, 2014, 10:29:18 PM
-blah-

Jimbob...you read our Monero Research Lab's very first publication, right? You know the one where we spoke about a cascading privacy failure if an attacker owned sufficient outputs? Here's a link for you to save yourself. At any rate, this could occur in a CryptoNote coin where persons unknown to everyone else controlled, to thumb suck an example, 82% of all the outputs. That would be an exceedingly unsafe CryptoNote coin to use, as those person(s) could easily reveal the actual signature of just about any transaction, thus negating any benefit of ring signatures.

When choose a currency to shill for, you really should choose one that doesn't have that flaw.

and.. you couldn't have just contributed to the Cryptonote project itself ?
Was there some reason you had to use the platform and make a clone coin of your own.. to flog around here non stop ?

The whole we had to make our own clone coin excuses routine never gets old around here LOL
1,001 MoneroShill Coin
1,002 HeyLookMathEquations Coin
1,003 IiPostAtBCTalkToomuch Coin
1,004 FartingDinosaur Coin
....

you guys are busted.. your pumping / hyping /spamming about a clone coin to make Bitcoin to cash out to buy Lambo's .
cut the crap.


Your dislike for Monero comes without thought or question for you follow BCX like a man who just found his beloved captain after drifting lost at sea for many years.

Your captain has abandoned you many times and returns only for his satisfaction, while you continue drifting with the utmost faith in him everytime, what will wake you up I say!

naw.. i have been against Monero for ages as well as NEM and NXT etc etc
ALL for the same exact reason.. the guys involved in making and advertising have abused this place with those coins.
i suspect many of the same guys shills involved in all three too LOL

i have been accused of following around BCX agreeing with him or whatever but we have come out with opposing opinions on some topics such as Doge coin.
We are independent people who have a mind of our own.
i can guarantee you all he couldn't care less what coins i do or don't support
and vice versa.. he's a big boy and can do what ever he wants.

but..

let's not forget that BCX does not spam this forum.. FOR Profit ..spamming about coins like Monero shills do.
instead he posts informative topics.. when he posts a new topic it's always interesting and informative !
the similarities between us is we are both willing to rock the boat.
some of us are not puppets and we have no "captain"
we do what we want..
Anyone that has ever met me in my life knows i go my own way no matter how much flack i take for it.. online or in real life.
In other words nobody anywhere is going to think that i take orders from a captain of sorts LOL

but uhhhh..
How did we got on this Spoetnik has to defend himself topic again ?
Hmm ? strange i thought we we're all talking about Monero ?
Change the subject cause diversions.. lie outright.. shill some more.. attack and dicredit critics etc etc ..keep playing games
trying to claw my eyes out because i called out Monero Shills for forum abuse here.. you guys have not respected this place at all !

You have abused this place (and us regular visitors) to try and make money off it (us).. which is fair enough but you have taken things too far for too long.
and your so stubborn and pig headed that even though a backlash has materialized you still pound this place..
knowing your turning off potential new Monero coin users but powerless to stop yourself from self destructing
while trying to pin it on me or whom ever all along as the big bad FUD'ing Troll's

Bottom line: I am not forcing you guys to spam this place with Monero bullshit incessantly.. look in the mirror !
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
October 03, 2014, 10:28:56 PM
You also didn't see the point of complexity theory.

Continuind my earlier post:

I emphasize that this is an academic discussion that has no practical consequence except to show that theory has nothing to say on the robustness of SHA256.

Two theoretical fields were used in your post: the theory of complexity classes (P, NP and all that) and big-O analysis.  Neither can be applied to SHA256.

First, both theories only apply to problems where the size n of the input is variable and unbounded; and they consider what happens in the limit when n tends to infinity.  If n is bounded, no matter how big, all the definitions collapse and every problem is not only polynomial, but can be solved in O(1) time.  

In fact, if you cannot let n go to infinity, strictly speaking you cannot even apply the definitions; you get barred at the door.  

But suppose you generalize the problem in such a way that the input size n can go to infinity, and you can analyze its complexity as "polynomial" or "exponential" or "O(n2)".   Still, these results will not say anything about the cost for any specific n, such as n = 256 bits.  

You cannot tell whether an algorithm runs in O(1) time or requires exponential time by looking at what it does forany finite set of inputs; and vice-versa.  

One can easily define two algorthms A0 and B0 such that A0 runs in O(1) time, B0 runs in exponential time, but A0 and B0 give the same output for every input with size n below 10500.  One can easily define two functions F0 and G0, where F0 can be computed in O(1) time while G0 requires exponential time, but such that F0(x) = G0(x) for every input x whose size n is less than 10500.  These are trivial exercises, that do not require any arguments or ideas more complicated than the definitions.

In a previous post you told how replacing an O(n^k) algorithm by an O(log n) one made a huge difference in running time.  I have a few such success stories myself. (Back in 1979, when working as a part-time programer for an egineering firm, I saved a large govt-funded project by substituting an O(1) table lookup for an O(n) search in a COBOL program, with n about 1000, after even the COBOL experts from IBM Brazil had failed to make the program run fast enough.  I never again got so much praise in my life.  Cheesy)

However, justifying those successes in terms of asymptotic (big-O) analysis or P-vs-NP is wrong, because that kind of analysis does not actually let you conclude anything about the actual running time on a specific application.  It is like the explanation of the successful businessman in the old joke at the end of this post.

Your wrote:
The definition of polynomial time is precisely the time complexity class O(nk).

The relevance is that for NP complexity class, very small increases in n causes exponential (not polynomial) increases in computation cost.

If the best known inversions of SHA256 are NP, then NP is relevant because it means there is some smallish value of n for which no inversion is practical. Afaics, this is what complexity theory gains us.

The first sentence is correct, the other two are dead wrong.

First, a formal nit:  the class NP contains P, and no one knows whether NP is equal to P or not. Therefore, proving that something is in NP does not prove that it is not P, and even proving that it is "NP-complete" (which is what people usually mean when they lazily say just "NP") does not prove that it is not P.  

Also another nit: there are many classes of asymptotic complexities between "polynomial" and "exponential", so "not polynomial" includes for example algorithms that run in O(n log log log log n) time, which for some problems would be very interesting indeed.  

The terms "exponential" and "polynomial" can be applied to the increase in running time only when they can be applied to the running time itself; that is, if there is a problem size variable n that can grow without bounds.  And, even then, they describe how the cost increases when n tends to infinity.  I repeat: those terms are meaningless if the size n is bounded (and doubly so if n is fixed).

Strictly by the definitions, the "Bitcoin Mining Problem" (BMP), the partial inversion of SHA256, is O(1), because it does not matter what the algorithm outputs when n is not 256.  Hence, strictly by the definitions, BMP is in P, and therefore is in NP; but is not NP-complete.  And, indeed, it could be solved by a giant table.  Of course, that table is too big to be built in practice; but that obstacle is not relevant for the theory.

I am not aware of any theory that would give a useful estimate of the practical difficulty of solving some problem with fixed-size inputs, like the BMP.  At best, one can prove theoretically that a certain specific shortcut will not work; but there is no way to prove that there are no practical shortcuts.  The only "proof" that BMP is hard is that many people have tried to find such a practical shortcut, for many years, with no success.

It is a terrible misconception to think that "exponential cost" is bigger (or grows faster) than "polynomial cost".  That is true only for "sufficiently large n", but the theory does not say when n is "sufficiently large"; it could be true only for n greater than 10500.  See the example algorithms A0 and B0 above, and the functions F0 and G0 above.  There is nothing in the theory that justifies saying that the breakpoint is "smallish".

You may object that examples like F0 and G0 are contrived and unreal.  But my statement remains correct even if the costs grow smoothly with n, according to some simple formulas.  Suppose that algorithm A1 finishes after 10200×n operations, algorithm B1 finishes after 10×n50 operations, and algorithm C1 finishes after 10×1.00000000000001n operations, all three formulas being exact (up to rounding) and valid for all inputs.  By the definitions, A1 runs in polynomial, O(n) time; B1 is polynomial too, with O(n50) time; nd C1 is exponential.  According to the "polynomial good, exponential bad" mantra, algorithm A1 should be better than B1, which should be better than C1.  However, plug n = 1000 in those formulas, and you get exactly the opposite order -- and only C1 will be fast enough to use.  

There are some very important real problems where the algorithms with best asymptotic complexity lose in practice to algorithms that in theory are much worse.   I recall that, perhaps 10 years ago, two students from India found a polynomial-time algorithm to decide whether a number is composite.  At the time, their algorithm ran in O(n14) time, where n is the number of bits in the input.  It was a great result for the theory; but, for the sizes n that are relevant to cryptography, their algorithm was much slower than the super-polynmial algorithms that crypto people were using.  (It may have been improved since then, I haven't checked.)

The Closest Point Problem (CPP) is like this: given a fixed set S of n sites (points) in a square, and then a series of query points, find for each query q the site p in S that is nearest to q.  One solution is to scan the set S each time; the query cost then is proportional to n. A more efficient solution begins by preprocessing S into a quad-tree Q: the square is divided into 4 smaller squares, and some of these are divided in turn, recursively; until each square has at most 1 site.   Then one can find the nearest site to a given query q by sweeping down through this tree of nested squares.  Theory says that, once the quad-tree Qis built, each query can be processed in O(log n) expected time (with some reasonable assumptions on the distribution of S).

The quad-tree method works well for points in a square, and the same idea can be used if the sites are scattered inside a cube, or a hipercube of any dimension d.  Theory says that the expected query cost remains O(log n), for any d. I have seen several computer scientists and students who, trusting that "O(log n) is much better than O(n)", tried to use this  method for things like pattern matching, where each site is an observed pattern, represented by a point in some high-dimensional space.  Only to find that, for that application, the quad-tree method is often much slower than plain sequential search.

It turns out that the quad-tree begins to work only if the number of sites n is at least 2d.  It works quite well for n = 1000 and d = 2 or 3; but, for  d = 30, it is a total waste of time unless n is a lot greater than a billion.  Not "smallish" at all...

The big-O notation was invented by pure mathematicians, to describe the limiting behavior of functions from reals to reals, such as the solutions of differential equations.  It was adapted to algorithm analysis by Don Knuth, IIRC.  However, for Knuth it was only a working tool, that would give an idea of the type of formula that had to be determined.  For example, if the number t(n) of inner block executions was found to be O(n2), one could write t(n) ≤ A n2 + B n + C, and then look for suitable values of A, B, and C.  If t(n) was found to be exponential, one would look for a formula like t(n) ≤ A × Bn. An so on.

However, finding those constants requires lots of boring algebra, so Knuth's lazy followers tacitly agreed that finding the big-O of the running time was good enough.  And then came the really lazy ones, who decided that "polynomial time" was all one needed to know.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
October 03, 2014, 10:26:52 PM
and.. you couldn't have just contributed to the Cryptonote project itself ?

Certainly not, since the Cryptonote project is and was a premine scam, complete with a fake blockchain, made up "deep web" backstory, forged document signatures, and both overt and covert coin mills pumping out clones to flood the market and try to crowd out any independent competitors (Monero is the only one I can definitively say is in that category, though there could be others), etc. The primary and original purpose of Monero was to take what valid technology Cryptonote had developed (though in many ways unfinished, since they rushed it to market as they saw the window for altcoin premine scams closing) and extract it from the premine scammers who were using it to rip people off (and in the process either inadvertently or deliberately broke their own anonymity tech, as our research showed) as well as continuing development on it with a somewhat less rushed "money grab" schedule.


legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
October 03, 2014, 10:20:55 PM
Thus you can add the good transactions (from the bad fork) back to your good fork if you can untangle them. No blacklisting needed.

You can't do this unless you can identify the "good" from the "bad," which gets back to blacklisting. If the transactions don't reference outputs from the dead fork, then they are still valid. That will often be the case for coins with and without ring sigs, but not always. Certainly ring sigs don't automatically cause massive numbers of otherwise-unrelated transactions to suddenly depend on a rejected fork, especially if the fork is of limited duration. Granted there are slightly more dependencies, but that is quantitative difference not a qualitative one. Some recipients will simply be out of luck (due to double spending) and some will need to rely on the sender to resend (or not, it is really up to the sender). Again this is no different than other coins.

You actually did this in describing the existence of stronger-than-MRL-0001 deanonymation attack (though not its scope and practical effect).

Oh I see you are recognizing that. Thanks.

Exactly, and this is not meant to personalize the issue with respect to you or anyone else or Monero or any other project. Specific, well-supported and well-presented contributions are more valued than vague ones. Always and everywhere.

Quote
It is very intuitive to me mathematically that you've got aliasing error in your difficult adjustment.

Show a specific example (or more general mathematical proof, but I'm guessing that proof-by-example might be easiest here).
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
October 03, 2014, 10:14:38 PM
Someone wanna sum up whats going on right now?

Can anyone dig up that link to the blog that was summarizing the thread? Has the author updated his summary?
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
October 03, 2014, 10:13:16 PM
Come-In-My-Behind, please.

Fine I will stop, only because I respect you.

I was just cracking a joke. Carry on.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
October 03, 2014, 10:11:30 PM
Been gone 2 days and just wasted 1/2 hour trying to catch up, but fuck that 20 more pages of this crap is too much.

Someone wanna sum up whats going on right now?
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
October 03, 2014, 10:11:11 PM
Come-In-My-Behind, please.

Fine I will stop, only because I respect you.
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
October 03, 2014, 10:10:08 PM
Come-In-My-Behind, please.

no PDA, please
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
October 03, 2014, 10:08:04 PM
Come-In-My-Behind, please.
legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 1008
October 03, 2014, 10:07:47 PM

A randomly selected post


Such words are as worn down as pebbles at the seashore.

Happy birthday Bridgette. 
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