DGM pools -- bitparking, EMC, etc. | Bitcointalksearch.org

drlukacs

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Quote from: pyra-proxy on April 30, 2013, 09:43:17 PM

No because the pool can't tell the difference between a hopper and one that is down due to technical difficulties on their side (at least that is what I would suspect)

Does hopping (in an optimal way) not have a very specific pattern that can be detected (specifically, by means of the time of the hopping)?

pyra-proxy

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Quote from: drlukacs on April 30, 2013, 09:37:44 PM

Quote from: doublec on April 29, 2013, 08:20:43 PM

This is the last 'justification' post I'm going to contribute to this thread because it's completely unproductive. Any answer is a 'right' answer depending on individual miners wants and needs. That's why it's great having so many pools to choose from.

First, I wanted to thank you for providing some explanation. I am sorry if any of this discussion appeared to you as unproductive. I can assure you that I found it very interesting and informative.

I am particularly grateful for sharing with me the link https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf about the various pool reward systems -- it brings me back my kindest memories as an undergraduate student. I had a great professor for Probability Theory.

I wanted to toss out another, quote open-ended question (and again, none on this is directed against you or your pool in any way): Is there a "fair" way of rewarding miners without punishing those who may stop mining from time to time due to technical difficulties, faulty hardware, etc.?

No because the pool can't tell the difference between a hopper and one that is down due to technical difficulties on their side (at least that is what I would suspect)

drlukacs

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Quote from: doublec on April 29, 2013, 08:20:43 PM

This is the last 'justification' post I'm going to contribute to this thread because it's completely unproductive. Any answer is a 'right' answer depending on individual miners wants and needs. That's why it's great having so many pools to choose from.

First, I wanted to thank you for providing some explanation. I am sorry if any of this discussion appeared to you as unproductive. I can assure you that I found it very interesting and informative.

I am particularly grateful for sharing with me the link https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf about the various pool reward systems -- it brings me back my kindest memories as an undergraduate student. I had a great professor for Probability Theory.

I wanted to toss out another, quote open-ended question (and again, none on this is directed against you or your pool in any way): Is there a "fair" way of rewarding miners without punishing those who may stop mining from time to time due to technical difficulties, faulty hardware, etc.?

doublec

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Quote from: drlukacs on April 29, 2013, 08:10:09 PM

My questions is: What is the reason that this is not how the pool operates? It would be a win for the operator (more profit), and a win for all miners, because the opportunity to do pooled mine at 0% fee would attract many miners. So, if the information provided earlier is correct, this would be a win-win situation.

I can give you the reasons why I don't do it, but understand that there is no right approach. Anyone can do whatever scratches their own person itch. The pool is designed to protect alt coin chains via merge mining and to distribute these coins to users who want to get them via mining. Their use of the coins will hopefully (if they don't immediately sell) help with the exchange rate of the coins. If I were to only provide bitcoin and receive fees via selling the alt coins then my selling would dump the alt coin market and drop their prices quite a bit. I'd also be tied to the risk that the alt coin prices drop, or the alt coins fail, making the pool lose money while offering a zero percent fee.

This is the last 'justification' post I'm going to contribute to this thread because it's completely unproductive. Any answer is a 'right' answer depending on individual miners wants and needs. That's why it's great having so many pools to choose from.

drlukacs

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Quote from: Ascholten on April 29, 2013, 07:04:31 PM

I think you will be better off at a different mining place. You seem to act like this place is out to rip you off or something.

Why should he NOT charge a fee, running mining pools cost money, bandwidth cost money, hosting cost money. A run of bad luck costs money.

If he took the money from the other currencies then you would probably cry that he is ripping you off by stealing your other currencies Roll Eyes

Again, if you do not like the fees, you are free to go mine elsewhere. Or better yet, open your own mining pool, maintain it and run it however you want to.

I was not suggesting that bitparking is out to rip off anyone. I simply asked a question about an alternative way of recovering not only costs, but making profit for bitparking, namely, by retaining all revenue from alternative coins mined in the process, but not charging any fees for bitcoin mining.

If the information provided earlier is correct (that these alternative coins provide another 10% revenue), the pool operator would be much better off keeping this revenue, and not charging any fee for bitcoin mining.

My questions is: What is the reason that this is not how the pool operates? It would be a win for the operator (more profit), and a win for all miners, because the opportunity to do pooled mine at 0% fee would attract many miners. So, if the information provided earlier is correct, this would be a win-win situation.

Ascholten

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I think you will be better off at a different mining place. You seem to act like this place is out to rip you off or something.

Why should he NOT charge a fee, running mining pools cost money, bandwidth cost money, hosting cost money. A run of bad luck costs money.

If he took the money from the other currencies then you would probably cry that he is ripping you off by stealing your other currencies Roll Eyes

Again, if you do not like the fees, you are free to go mine elsewhere. Or better yet, open your own mining pool, maintain it and run it however you want to.

Aaron

drlukacs

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Quote from: doublec on April 28, 2013, 09:54:58 PM

Right now namecoin adds 8.13%, devcoin 0.62% and ixcoin 2.18% to your earnings in terms of the price ratio to btc.

If so, then why do you charge any fees on bitcoins?

You could instead keep some or all of the rewards from these other currencies, and have a no fee BTC pool. Or at least offer such an option.

pyra-proxy

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Quote from: twobits on April 29, 2013, 01:01:55 AM

Quote from: drlukacs on April 29, 2013, 12:03:16 AM

Quote from: doublec on April 28, 2013, 09:54:58 PM

Quote from: drlukacs on April 28, 2013, 09:12:39 PM

If so, then for 1 share that I submit, I am to receive both 1 unit of reward for bitcoin mining, but also 1 unit of reward for each of the other coins.

Yes, that is how it works: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/273/how-does-merged-mining-work

So, if converted (at today's rates) to bitcoins, what is the total reward per share on a PPS system (assuming 5% fee on bitcoins and 2.5% on all others)? In other words, what is the sum, in bitcoins, of all rewards received?

Right now namecoin adds 8.13%, devcoin 0.62% and ixcoin 2.18% to your earnings in terms of the price ratio to btc.

And with that math if I'm not mistaken, if all your after is btc then this pool is paying out in excess of 100% compared to a btc only pool even with fees....

twobits

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Quote from: drlukacs on April 29, 2013, 12:03:16 AM

Quote from: doublec on April 28, 2013, 09:54:58 PM

Quote from: drlukacs on April 28, 2013, 09:12:39 PM

If so, then for 1 share that I submit, I am to receive both 1 unit of reward for bitcoin mining, but also 1 unit of reward for each of the other coins.

Yes, that is how it works: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/273/how-does-merged-mining-work

So, if converted (at today's rates) to bitcoins, what is the total reward per share on a PPS system (assuming 5% fee on bitcoins and 2.5% on all others)? In other words, what is the sum, in bitcoins, of all rewards received?

Right now namecoin adds 8.13%, devcoin 0.62% and ixcoin 2.18% to your earnings in terms of the price ratio to btc.

doublec

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Quote from: drlukacs on April 29, 2013, 12:03:16 AM

So, if converted (at today's rates) to bitcoins, what is the total reward per share on a PPS system (assuming 5% fee on bitcoins and 2.5% on all others)? In other words, what is the sum, in bitcoins, of all rewards received?

I don't know, sounds like a good project for you to investigate.

drlukacs

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Quote from: doublec on April 28, 2013, 09:54:58 PM

Quote from: drlukacs on April 28, 2013, 09:12:39 PM

If so, then for 1 share that I submit, I am to receive both 1 unit of reward for bitcoin mining, but also 1 unit of reward for each of the other coins.

Yes, that is how it works: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/273/how-does-merged-mining-work

So, if converted (at today's rates) to bitcoins, what is the total reward per share on a PPS system (assuming 5% fee on bitcoins and 2.5% on all others)? In other words, what is the sum, in bitcoins, of all rewards received?

doublec

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Quote from: drlukacs on April 28, 2013, 09:12:39 PM

If so, then for 1 share that I submit, I am to receive both 1 unit of reward for bitcoin mining, but also 1 unit of reward for each of the other coins.

Yes, that is how it works: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/273/how-does-merged-mining-work

drlukacs

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Quote from: Ascholten on April 28, 2013, 09:02:24 PM

Each different currency has it's own hash rate, it's own difficulty, value, etc etc, JUST like bitcoin.

When you signed up, IF you put in an address for these different currencies, you will be mining them along with your bitcoin.
If you did not put in an address then you will NOT be mining them.

Can you elaborate on what it means to mine them along with my bitcoins.

What was suggested here (and I am not sure if it is correct) that the same computation can be used for both mining bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies. In other words, that by putting addresses for more than one currency, I will not lose some of my computational capacity to mining things other than bitcoins.

If so, then for 1 share that I submit, I am to receive both 1 unit of reward for bitcoin mining, but also 1 unit of reward for each of the other coins.

Is this how it works?

If not, then now it works exactly in terms of rewards?

Ascholten

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Each different currency has it's own hash rate, it's own difficulty, value, etc etc, JUST like bitcoin.

When you signed up, IF you put in an address for these different currencies, you will be mining them along with your bitcoin.
If you did not put in an address then you will NOT be mining them.

No worries though simply re register with a different name and then add your wallets for these different currencies.
Then you can take payouts Of them to your respective wallets.

If you do not want to have to search out / download / install/ get working all the different coin type wallets. You can goto an exchange like vircurex for example and create a wallet there.
The money goes there, and you can do what you want with it then.

Aaron

doublec

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Quote from: drlukacs on April 28, 2013, 08:26:24 PM

So, if I submit 1 share, then I will get each of the rewards listed, in the respective currencies?

Yes, if you've registered an address for them.

drlukacs

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Quote from: doublec on April 28, 2013, 07:50:54 PM

Quote from: drlukacs on April 28, 2013, 07:45:25 PM

Can you explain how these rewards (in namecoins, devcoins, and ixcoins) are being calculated?

They are calculated the same as PPS in bitcoin, but with a 2.5% fee.

So, if I submit 1 share, then I will get each of the rewards listed, in the respective currencies?

doublec

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Quote from: drlukacs on April 28, 2013, 07:45:25 PM

Can you explain how these rewards (in namecoins, devcoins, and ixcoins) are being calculated?

They are calculated the same as PPS in bitcoin, but with a 2.5% fee.

drlukacs

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Quote from: doublec on April 28, 2013, 07:19:39 PM

EMC doesn't merge mine, so you are missing out on income from namecoins,devcoins, and ixcoins. EMC doesn't pay orphans, Bitparking does which eats into the fee quite a bit. It may be that none of this matters to you in which case, yes, EMC might be a better pool for you.

Can you explain how these rewards (in namecoins, devcoins, and ixcoins) are being calculated?

cassini

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Quote from: doublec on April 28, 2013, 07:19:39 PM

EMC doesn't pay orphans, Bitparking does

Considering we've had around 1.2 % orphan blocks during the last 12 months, a 1.5 % fee is next to nothing. And if I include losses from "accidents" like the blockchain fork a few weeks ago I'm quite amazed how some of the pools survived at all.

doublec

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Quote from: drlukacs on April 28, 2013, 03:57:11 PM

To be clear, I am not advocating for EMC (or any other pool), rather, I am trying to understand what bitparking has to offer that EMC does not have.

EMC doesn't merge mine, so you are missing out on income from namecoins,devcoins, and ixcoins. EMC doesn't pay orphans, Bitparking does which eats into the fee quite a bit. It may be that none of this matters to you in which case, yes, EMC might be a better pool for you.

Topic: DGM pools -- bitparking, EMC, etc. (Read 1574 times)