Topic: Did Karpeles lie? - page 3. (Read 3424 times)

They didn't say the Bitcoin side of things was relevant at all. You assumed that.
What is relevant is the unlicensed money transmission. Read it again, it is written very clearly.

It performs a currency exchange each time it matches orders with different currencies. That is factual.
Whether random people on the internet think it is important or not doesn't change that.
It is not because some X thing is judged more important than some other Y thing that the Y thing immediately disappears.

If you want to discuss legalities it's best to remain factual.

No, the evidence DHS presented to the judge is how a CI sends USD to Gox to exchange it to BTC and exchange it back to USD for six months, obviously they are targeting BTC specifically as a currency. And did you see that they only call Gox a "digital currency exchange" immediately after they call BTC a "digital currency"? Some smoke-screen is going on here.


I don't think you can consider a multi-currency platform buying/selling apples as a currency exchange/money transmitter ,  even if it's being done somehow implicitly, what's really being bought/sold is more important than anything else.

So what, it mentions "currency exchange" which is what my point is about, they exchange currency automatically because their trading engine is built that way, USD orders could match EUR orders and it would transparent for the users.

Which is technically brilliant, but legally stupid.

See previous comment, you miss the detail, their engine does it *automatically*.

I'm not saying that it's what they're being charged for, but it's one of the things they *could* be charged for if a judge bother to look into the details.

1. The warrant itself never mentions other foreign currencies.

2. After you have bought bitcoins on Gox, there is nothing they can do to stop you from exchanging it for other foreign currencies. The exchange cannot prove that the buyer/seller are the same person. And this is at best something Gox facilitates, not participates in, the site is not built to serve and profit from this purpose, so the first thing the government should do when they find soemone is using Gox to exchange currencies is to inform them to take actions against such users, not just forfeiting their account.

I think you are wrong, their multi-currency engine does it implicitly.
Devil is in the details.

And surprisingly, the great majority of gay community support the FED and consider it a solid case, because deepceleron has screwed them by processing their orders slowly, so he must be a loser/liar.

Yes, and if deepceleron complains about this "due process" he can stand in the queue behind the Benghazi widows, Tea Party activists and AP journalists.

I was just reading the seizure PDF, and the judge is probably a DHS rubber-stamper; if she didn't sign drone strikes, wiretaps, and seizures daily, she would be replaced.

The evidence presented that mtgox is a money transmitter fails analysis. It is an assault on personal property without trial or process. I could make the same statements:

deepceleron has a bank account,
he regularly sends money to paypal account with the moniker gay-love-supplies,
the paypal money is transmitted to customers in exchange for goods,
a confidential informant had money transmitted to him in exchange for one used inflatable sheep. The informant then transmitted the money back to the account holder in exchange for "TSA anal lube".

Therefore based on my training and experience, deepceleron is a money transmitter and the contents of his accounts are subject to forfeiture.

So I read the warrant against Gox, http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Mt-Gox-Dwolla-Warrant-5-14-13.pdf , and I think basically they are trying to justify the seizure by saying Gox is involved in dealing in currency and transmitting money for their customers, which Karpeles denied when he registered the account with the bank, however, I doubt whether such accusation is really well-founded.

First, the warrant is very assertive that Bitcoin is a digital currency, and Gox is a digital currency exchange, nevertheless, according to http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=d5570d7646c5fc13fe1fa42a61d1dcf1&rgn=div5&view=text&node=31:3.1.6.1.2&idno=31#31:3.1.6.1.2.1.3.1(search for "(m) Currency")  Gox cannot be called a currency exchanger or dealer because it doesn't deal in foreign currencies, you cannot exchange dollars for other currencies on Gox directly, you can only exchange them for bitcoins, which is not a currency by their definition.(In fact, the Japanese authority considered Bitcoin a ledger and decided not to regulate)

Second, Gox cannot be called a money transmitter either, according to the definition from the same source(search for "money transmitter"):"(5) Money transmitter —(i) In general. (A) A person that provides money transmission services. The term “money transmission services” means the acceptance of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency from one person and the transmission of currency, funds, or other value that substitutes for currency to another location or person by any means. " Especially the following two exceptions:

"(ii) Facts and circumstances; Limitations. Whether a person is a money transmitter as described in this section is a matter of facts and circumstances. The term “money transmitter” shall not include a person that only:

(A) Provides the delivery, communication, or network access services used by a money transmitter to support money transmission services

......

(E) Provides prepaid access; or

(F) Accepts and transmits funds only integral to the sale of goods or the provision of services, other than money transmission services, by the person who is accepting and transmitting the funds."

So my conlcusion is there should have been no need for Gox to register as a money transmitter, as they never engaged in exchanging one person's currency and funds for another person's, and Karpeles should indeed answer "No" to the two questions. Any legally knowledgeable guy please enlighten me if I am wrong.