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Topic: [Discussion] Taro: A new protocol for multi-asset Bitcoin and Lightning (Read 1165 times)

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
Again, I am not sure, but Tether is not on LN, but it is issued as a Taproot Assets. An asset can have different rules thai the underlying protocol (Lightning Network): it is the particolare asset tuo be permissioned, not the LN.
Perhaps my last post wasn't clear enough. Of course I was referring on "Taproot Assets on Lightning".

The creation of a "permissioned asset" is possible due to the "universe" function (as written before, an universe in Taproot Assets is sort of an "official block explorer", but it's not necessarily centralized on a single server). See a description of universes here. This indeed gives the issuers (in this case: Tether) some control: they can create custom rules for the assets which will be included in this universe. It's likely that Tether will designate their own universe as "default" for USDT.

Lightning Labs also creates and manages universes, and thus it's also possible that Tether and Lightning Labs agree that LL always will use Tether's universe as well, although this for sure would be seen as controversial and a step towards centralization. It is however also simply possible that LL agrees to abstain from creating an own universe for USDT, so Tether's universe becomes the only "official-looking" one.

So if an USDT transaction X is marked as "disavowed" by Tether (e.g. as the result of a hack, or sanctions evading etc.), I imagine they can create a rule in the vein of "has no antecessor:X" for the universe, and thus the subsequent transactions won't be displayed on this "official block explorer" of the universe. Everybody who's aware of the universe (including wallet software) would thus not "recognize" these transactions as valid.

Those owning the "disavowed" tokens would likely try to create an own universe where the transactions are still valid (like Pmalek wrote here), and lure other users into buying or accepting these tokens by using other "alternative" universes for the USDT token. But that won't be easy, I think.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
I'm taking this quote from another topic here:
they can "disavow" them, i.e. they can "mark" some transactions/UTXOs, and then these tokens lose their 1:1 USD peg because Tether no longer would exchange them (and thus, all other users would also not accept them).
They can do the exact same thing to every token all at once. I'm not in crypto to trust companies.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 17063
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
I'm curious though, for those who are familiar with the tech side, I would imagine that as a token issuer, Tether would still have the ability to freeze assets if they chose too, just like they would on other EVM compatible chains? Meaning nothing will change from that side, just because they're going to use bitcoin?

As far as I understand the Lightning protocol, I guess "freezing" like with ETH would not be possible, at least without some completely new LN "extensions" (a kind of "centralized backdoor" would be needed, I guess).

I however found this post on stacker.news which discusses the exact question and explains how Tether could at least build obstacles for certain funds for example.

The crucial question seems to be that the asset issuers can build a so-called "universe" with custom rules around the asset; this is basically an "overlay" to the blockchain, which can be described like a kind of semi-centralized block explorer recognizing only "valid" transactions according to these custom rules.

The asset creators can't prevent the asset being transferred, because this would occur with an (uncensorable) Bitcoin or Lightning transaction. But they can "disavow" a transaction or declare transactions from a certain origin "invalid", if I understand the Stacker post correctly. This would make it very difficult for those owning the funds to exchange them to fiat or other tokens without losing (a lot of) value, they would have to set up an own "universe", and of course Tether would never exchange these funds themselves to USD.

Here's the crucial part of the post:

Quote from: stacker.news
It’s possible to clone a universe and run alternates that someone can publish a disavowed transaction to - although this shouldn’t work. Since the value of USDT is dependent on tether’s ability to convert to USD, if tether says “for this specific asset tx, we will not convert back to USD for whichever reason” then anyone who accepts the tx now potentially has an asset that has no value. So - no one ought to accept the asset. Even though the asset still exists, can move unilaterally, and without permission.

Again, I am not sure, but Tether is not on LN, but it is issued as a Taproot Assets. An asset can have different rules thai the underlying protocol (Lightning Network): it is the particolare asset tuo be permissioned, not the LN.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
I'm curious though, for those who are familiar with the tech side, I would imagine that as a token issuer, Tether would still have the ability to freeze assets if they chose too, just like they would on other EVM compatible chains? Meaning nothing will change from that side, just because they're going to use bitcoin?

As far as I understand the Lightning protocol, I guess "freezing" like with ETH would not be possible, at least without some completely new LN "extensions" (a kind of "centralized backdoor" would be needed, I guess).

I however found this post on stacker.news which discusses the exact question and explains how Tether could at least build obstacles for certain funds for example.

The crucial question seems to be that the asset issuers can build a so-called "universe" with custom rules around the asset; this is basically an "overlay" to the blockchain, which can be described like a kind of semi-centralized block explorer recognizing only "valid" transactions according to these custom rules.

The asset creators can't prevent the asset being transferred, because this would occur with an (uncensorable) Bitcoin or Lightning transaction. But they can "disavow" a transaction or declare transactions from a certain origin "invalid", if I understand the Stacker post correctly. This would make it very difficult for those owning the funds to exchange them to fiat or other tokens without losing (a lot of) value, they would have to set up an own "universe", and of course Tether would never exchange these funds themselves to USD.

Here's the crucial part of the post:

Quote from: stacker.news
It’s possible to clone a universe and run alternates that someone can publish a disavowed transaction to - although this shouldn’t work. Since the value of USDT is dependent on tether’s ability to convert to USD, if tether says “for this specific asset tx, we will not convert back to USD for whichever reason” then anyone who accepts the tx now potentially has an asset that has no value. So - no one ought to accept the asset. Even though the asset still exists, can move unilaterally, and without permission.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 17063
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
So for those who have not read the news, USDT will be coming to Taproot assets: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5528322.0;topicseen

I'm curious though, for those who are familiar with the tech side, I would imagine that as a token issuer, Tether would still have the ability to freeze assets if they chose too, just like they would on other EVM compatible chains? Meaning nothing will change from that side, just because they're going to use bitcoin?

One of the  key feature of the Tether protocol is actually the possibility of the suer to control the coin at an atomic level. Take for example the case of the Ledger CEO ransom, paid in Tether, and actually stolen from the Kidnapper as Tether froze those coins!
So I guess they will retain the possibility over he LN network, but I am not sure about this.
staff
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6152
So for those who have not read the news, USDT will be coming to Taproot assets: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5528322.0;topicseen

I'm curious though, for those who are familiar with the tech side, I would imagine that as a token issuer, Tether would still have the ability to freeze assets if they chose too, just like they would on other EVM compatible chains? Meaning nothing will change from that side, just because they're going to use bitcoin?
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 17063
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23


I find it's unsettling to see 2 similar protocol compete, especially when Taproot Asset is based on RGB. If people behind Taproot join RGB or vice versa, we could see faster/more efficient development.

As I understand, Ardoino is a fan of L2 solution, actually both of them:

The Block released an interview with the Tether CEO:
Bitfinex's Ardoino expects 'quantum leap' in Bitcoin scaling solution adoption
Quote
However, he also appears to be a fan of Taproot Assets — which aims to transform Bitcoin into a scalable multi-asset network without compromising its core tenets — calling it "the future we deserve."

In this interview so he clarifies he is confident in the L2 scaling solutions, and open to the best protocol emerging from the competing one (TaAs and RGB) or even new ones that could emerge).
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 17063
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
An exciting, yet puzzling news caught my attention the other day:

Paolo Ardoino sees RGB as 'best opportunity' to issue stablecoins on Bitcoi

tl;dr
Quote
Quick Take

  • Paolo Ardoino called the RGB protocol the “best opportunity” for issuing stablecoins on Bitcoin.
  • Ardoino said RGB is the “rightful successor” to Omni for Tether’s USDT stablecoin issuance.


Why RGB?
We know that Taproot Assets is a copycat of RGB, but we also know that it has better documentation and probably a better team. He was referring to RGB as the protocol per se or RGB as "Asstet transfer protocol on BTC L2?" opening the competitive race between RGB and TARO?
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
Thank you for linking the news Smiley

I think NostrAssets (mentioned in one of the articles) is quite an interesting approach. I've not looked at it in detail, but it seems to combine the Nostr communication protocol (which is used for messaging and similar communication activity, it has also a protocol extension for marketplaces) and Taproot Assets for DeFi-Lightning applications. There seems to be no whitepaper however, so investigating its inner workings could be a bit bothersome ...

There could be interesting synergies as Nostr uses the same kind of cryptography as Bitcoin (and thus, TA and Lightning) does. For example, I could imagine temporary addresses being used as identification in the Nostr network but only valid for one payment to maximize privacy when trading TA assets. (I'm willing to overlook that the NostrAssets team seems to come originally from the BRC-20 bubble Wink )
legendary
Activity: 3402
Merit: 9199
icarus-cards.eu
✂️
Today Lightning Labs released their first main net alpha of the product: Taproot Assets v 0.3 where developers and tester can start playing with financial assets issued on chain!


for this release, there is also a very detailed article that also shows why TA provides builders with all the tools needed to make bitcoin a multi-asset network, but in a scalable manner that maintains bitcoin's core values
https://lightning.engineering/posts/2023-10-18-taproot-assets-v0.3/
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 17063
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Lightning Labs rebranded their first product rgb TARO as Taproot Assets, and today they are launching their first mainnet alpha.
 
Taproot assets is a protocol for issuing assets on the Bitcoin blockchain that can be transferred leveraging the Lightning network.

The protocol is described here:
Taproot Assets

Quote
Taproot Assets (formerly Taro) is a new Taproot-powered protocol for issuing assets on the bitcoin blockchain that can be transferred over the Lightning Network for instant, high volume, low fee transactions. At its core, Taproot Assets taps into the security and stability of the Bitcoin network and the speed, scalability, and low fees of Lightning.

For a brief explanation of the protocol, here there are the FAQ.

Today Lightning Labs released their first main net alpha of the product: Taproot Assets v 0.3 where developers and tester can start playing with financial assets issued on chain!
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 19
As for updates on Taproot Assets:

1.) Yes there has been a change because Tari Labs filed a lawsuit against Lightning Labs that Taro sounds too similar. as a result Lightning Labs decided to rebrand rather than fight the lawsuit.

2.) The Taproot Assets Protocol Deamon tapd that run on top of LND is now pretty stable. It sometimes crashes when you don't wait for one black between making transactions.

3.) Taro Assets now only works on-chain. The part with making lightning channels is not yet started but they have some blueprints on how to do it.

As for Tiramisu wallet:

1.) We deployed a test Taproot Assets store that can be found here
https://tapd-store.tarowallet.net
This can be used for testing of your TAPD node.

2.) We newly track testnet asset prices as you can see here
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/3

3.) We support a bunch of faucets also intended for testing
NFT faucet:
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/faucet/?currency=nft
Other currency faucets:
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/faucet/?currency=7
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/faucet/?currency=3
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/faucet/?currency=8

4.) We maintain a list of NFTs and fungible currencies that you can sell, buy, send, receive or mint your own:
Currencies
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/57
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/3
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/56
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/5
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/7
NFTs
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/121
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/94
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/102
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/115

5.) Here is our web wallet:
https://testnet.tarowallet.net
staff
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6152
Someone from the Arabic local board just brought this to my attention[1]: It looks like Taro has rebranded to "The Taproot assets"[2] and released a new update (0.20.0v) a few days ago

[1] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5453391
[2] https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/taproot-assets
[3] https://github.com/lightninglabs/taproot-assets/releases
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6320
Crypto Swap Exchange
Bad news for the project. It looks like they're not going to be able to develop the project any further or even announce the next stage of the protocol until this is sorted out:

Lightning Labs’ Taro Project Faces Halt as Judge Issues Temporary Injunction for Trademark Infringement
-snip-
On Wednesday, Judge William H. Orrick issued a temporary injunction forcing Lightning Labs to halt further development of Taro until the project has been sufficiently rebranded. In its complaint, Tari argued that it and Lightning “compete in the same digital blockchain ecosystem, provide similar, and in some instances identical, goods and services, market to similar developers and users, and appear on the same blockchain platforms.”
-snip-

This is ridiculous. Even though there's only 1 character difference (Tari and Taro), it has different spelling and reference (Taro refer to vegetable, while Tari refers to "newly minted coin"[1]). It's a shame both party (Tari Labs and Lightning Labs) works on open source, but Tari Labs decide to attack Lightning Labs.

[1] https://tarilabs.com/faq/

I do not see it as that big a deal, you can continue to develop and test and work on it, you just can't release market it. So development continues without public releases until they come up with a new name. Stupid, but this is why a lot of huge international mega corps spend more time working on naming and branding then they do on some products. Unless they have some other reason to stop development I don't see it being more then a waste of time and money. And having to give money to lawyers.

Lawyers gotta lawyer, but there is a solution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35rErQtJ6uA  (warning some a lot bad words)

-Dave

staff
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6152
Bad news for the project. It looks like they're not going to be able to develop the project any further or even announce the next stage of the protocol until this is sorted out:

Lightning Labs’ Taro Project Faces Halt as Judge Issues Temporary Injunction for Trademark Infringement
-snip-
On Wednesday, Judge William H. Orrick issued a temporary injunction forcing Lightning Labs to halt further development of Taro until the project has been sufficiently rebranded. In its complaint, Tari argued that it and Lightning “compete in the same digital blockchain ecosystem, provide similar, and in some instances identical, goods and services, market to similar developers and users, and appear on the same blockchain platforms.”
-snip-
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 17063
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
I have created a web wallet for Taro that you can find here
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/

You can use it to test your taro nodes.

The wallet is now only active on testnet but will move to main net as soon as I can.

I have also created a Taro NFT faucet that you can find here
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/faucet/?currency=nft
(went with tarot cards as NFTs, sorry I know it is lame)

as well as some standard fungible asset faucets
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/faucet/?currency=294
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/faucet/?currency=293

Hope it helps you with testing and development.


This is an incredibly well done work.
I will play on this, and for sure I can see this kind of use being moved up quickly from base layer to L2 solutions, due to fees.
OF course I hope that people will exchange more interesting stuff than jpg's on TARO, but I understand futile uses are a necessity in the first place.
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 19
For those who are interested here are a few NFTs and currencies that I have minted on Taro represented as summary website pages.

An initial test NFT
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/308

A girl investing in Bitcoin NFT
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/332

Diamond hands NFT
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/328

You can get more NFT for testing of your node here https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/faucet/?currency=nft

A test fungible currency called Beckycoin
https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/currencies_public/294
there is a faucet for this currency as well here https://testnet.tarowallet.net/walletapp/faucet/?currency=294

Right now I am including the images into metadata resulting in pretty long genesis_bootstrap_info as well as long invoices. Lightning Labs have a PR to fix this https://github.com/lightninglabs/taro/pull/249 .

[ Sorry the images are not showing here ]
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 19
Hi,

sorry, I am now only supporting the testnet legacy adresses (P2PKH) .

Not ideal I know.
staff
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6152
-snip-

Thanks for the response. I've also tried to send BTC from the wallet, and apparently, there's a problem decoding the address (tb1....):

Code:
Invalid character '0'

Or should the address be a taproot one in order for this to work?
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 19
Hi,

thanks for your reply.

Yes. Right now it is a CUSTODIAL web wallet. Developing a non-custodial Taro wallet is possible but it would require more implicated approach. I know that privacy-wise there are MILES to go. I am planning to expose an API and release a web app but this is what we have for now.

As for the license - yes I will add this to my TODO list. You are correct this is kind of crucial.

As for username and password - I decided to only go with the basic necessities. I am intentionally not collecting emails.

Is there something wrong with generating invoices? I filled in the description and clicked the button, but I wasn't given anything and the page just keeps refreshing every few seconds.

Hi,

thanks for the feedback.

Right now some operations can be kind of slow.

It is because at the time I wrote the web app tarod would crash if you tried to mint and generate invoices at the same time.

It would also break if you try to mint multiple assets in the same block.

So the web app waits with generating the invoice until all minting requests are processed.

It is a very shitty UX I am sorry and have added this on my list of things to fix.

Also thanks a lot for giving this a test ride - very helpful.
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