Are there concerns electronic payment processors, merchant gateways and similar services will hike fees and rates through the roof once they succeed in establishing a centralized monopoly over currency exchange? One analogy to a cashless society could be the demise of internet neutrality with ISP's gradually charging higher fees and throttling bandwidth as telecom providers become more centralized and the format of their business plans proceed in a more centralized and monopolistic direction.
Some credit cards atm charge 0% APR. If paper money were eliminated, credit card companies might decide to hike APR rates 30% or higher and consumers would have little in the way of recourse or alternative options with paper money being banned or unaccepted. The potential for internet blackout preventing transactions at times when they're most needed also is cause for concern.
Some say cashless society represents the future and is a natural progression. I don't see it. Looks like a blatant cash grab and plan with ulterior motives devised to satisfy greed and invoke predatory business practices to me.
Topic: Do internet blackouts highlight a potentially fatal flaw in cashless societies (Read 318 times)
January 24, 2019, 03:56:53 AM
January 24, 2019, 12:56:14 AM
It's true, almost all governments are trying to move to cashless society, but I'm sure that they doesn't care about money laundering. They just want to collect taxes on every single penny around. The end users, ordinary citizens, are always f*cked hard. Like 40%-60% income taxes before covering their expenses while companies are paying 10%-30% after covering their expenses.
Shorts blackouts aren't that scary, but 3-4+ days are in any Western country and could lead to serious troubles. We just need to be careful and have some other options.
One of the worst things about cashless society is when poor and corrupt country is trying to implement it. Tax evasion, smuggled goods, shadow economy are giving people an opportunity to increase their level of life, instead of giving their money to the government that will just steal most of it. Those things are mostly fueled with cash, and it's not a coincidence that those governments are trying to put restrictions on it.
January 23, 2019, 03:40:26 PM
That is why gold is always needed. If the local currency is crap, and the internet is flaky, people can always turn to gold. Bitcoin has it's weakness and that is reliance on the internet
January 23, 2019, 02:16:39 PM
This could highlight one key reason why paper money might never disappear: consumers and businesses need an alternate currency to serve as a last resort in the event of the internet being compromised or shut down. Even a few hours lapse in electronic payment availability could be disastrous for the economy of a nation. Uptime and reliability of paper money carries a potential to rival any purported advantages people associate with a cashless society.
But at the same time many governments seriously hate cash and are actively taking measures against it. A lot of countries have banned high-denomination notes and imposed restrictions on cash transactions. They think that cashless society will help them defeat money laundering once and for all, which means less crime and especially less tax evasion. And I have a feeling that they all are willing to take the risks of cashless society that you've described, because it means more control over the population.
It's true, almost all governments are trying to move to cashless society, but I'm sure that they doesn't care about money laundering. They just want to collect taxes on every single penny around. The end users, ordinary citizens, are always f*cked hard. Like 40%-60% income taxes before covering their expenses while companies are paying 10%-30% after covering their expenses.
Shorts blackouts aren't that scary, but 3-4+ days are in any Western country and could lead to serious troubles. We just need to be careful and have some other options.
January 23, 2019, 10:57:50 AM
Maybe I should start a satellite network for Bitcoin/altcoin transactions only 
(<= I claim copyright )
Actually, this idea already discussed (<= I claim copyright )https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ny1EQo7p5k
Anyway, in general, we don't have to worry about internet blackout. The probability of that happen (globally) is so minuscule. Shit happens in countries like Zimbabwe but doesn't mean we have to worry about it too much. Nevertheless, I agree with some fail-safe mechanism just in case of internet blackout.
January 23, 2019, 10:35:47 AM
If you really want to be worried, think: Solar Flare.
That'll put some fear in you
That'll put some fear in you
January 23, 2019, 10:31:30 AM
It will be completely hypocritical to promote "cashless" policies all the name of security, then wage war against cryptocurrencies.
Not only that, but most governments don't see crypto as a threat, not even in the slightest possible way. Crypto will only become a threat if it is being adopted as currency by the mass, which isn't likely to happen any time soon. The only thing governments need to do is to advance their fiat system and offer people more speed, convenience, etc. That's more than enough to shake off crypto in its entirety as long as their fiat currencies don't implode.
The very fact that most governments have been surprisingly friendly towards crypto, just shows that they don't see it as a threat. I'm glad for that actually, because the longer they let it grow, the harder it will be to combat whenever they finally start seeing it as a legit threat to their own fiat currencies.
January 23, 2019, 07:48:38 AM
For now, yes, given that most cashless system networks are fully dependent on the workings on the internet. Should there be a problem on the internet, say the infrastructure has somewhat crumbled due to an unforeseen event, the data for cashless systems would still be intact, however the whole protocol wouldn't be operational given that it relies on the internet to produce or mint new coins and continue the chains of transactions coming in on their network. Good thing though that the internet isn't in a single data center that can be a hotspot for nefarious attackers and such, so it's kinda tricky to take down the whole internet using a single attack.
January 22, 2019, 10:06:24 PM
There are many reports in the media how some cities and regions go 100% cash free, so apparently the idea of cashless society is pretty popular. Payment companies and merchants offer people cashback, miles, discounts for using cards instead of cash, and I have a feeling that those things are way more popular than the ideas of privacy and freedom.
Unfortunately, they are. The main reason is that not a lot of people are sensitive to fact they are trading their privacy for these offers, or they just don't care so far they can get the best value for their money with them.
And what scares me is that if governments will keep fighting cash, cryptocurrencies might be next.
I'm not sure, but AFAIK a lot of governments mostly in technologically advanced countries are trying not to get caught in the middle of banning the use or waging war against cryptocurrency. It will be completely hypocritical to promote "cashless" policies all the name of security, then wage war against cryptocurrencies.
January 22, 2019, 09:36:16 PM
Also, I think the reasoning behind doing away with high-denomination currency is to combat drug money being transported so easily, and probably money laundering to some extent--not because the governments inherently hate cash.
I've used the word "hate" metaphorically, in a sense that they actively prosecute cash. And I've made exactly the same point in the rest of my post - the governments are trying to curb money laundering and crime.
It does happen in many countries, recently it was the most notably in India when around 100 people died while waiting in line to exchange their cash.
While I support bitcoin fully, I don't want to see an end to physical cash. One of the reasons is definitely a fear of not being able to pay for something if a store's credit card reader is down, or the electricity goes out, but the main reason for me is that I don't necessarily like my bank (or the government) being able to look at every purchase I make. Cash is still the most anonymous method of payment I know of--and there may be cryptocurrencies with pretty good anonymity characteristics built into them, try finding a merchant who accepts them as a form of payment.
I doubt there's many people on this forum who want to see cash gone, but this forum represents only a small part of the population. There are many reports in the media how some cities and regions go 100% cash free, so apparently the idea of cashless society is pretty popular. Payment companies and merchants offer people cashback, miles, discounts for using cards instead of cash, and I have a feeling that those things are way more popular than the ideas of privacy and freedom. And what scares me is that if governments will keep fighting cash, cryptocurrencies might be next.
January 22, 2019, 07:45:29 PM
But at the same time many governments seriously hate cash and are actively taking measures against it. A lot of countries have banned high-denomination notes and imposed restrictions on cash transactions.
I don't know about other countries, but the US got rid of denominations over $100 years ago, and as far as I know they don't have any plans to do away with $100 bills. Hell, they can't even stop minting those stupid pennies and dollar coins that no one uses. Also, I think the reasoning behind doing away with high-denomination currency is to combat drug money being transported so easily, and probably money laundering to some extent--not because the governments inherently hate cash.While I support bitcoin fully, I don't want to see an end to physical cash. One of the reasons is definitely a fear of not being able to pay for something if a store's credit card reader is down, or the electricity goes out, but the main reason for me is that I don't necessarily like my bank (or the government) being able to look at every purchase I make. Cash is still the most anonymous method of payment I know of--and there may be cryptocurrencies with pretty good anonymity characteristics built into them, try finding a merchant who accepts them as a form of payment.
January 22, 2019, 07:20:07 PM
This could highlight one key reason why paper money might never disappear: consumers and businesses need an alternate currency to serve as a last resort in the event of the internet being compromised or shut down. Even a few hours lapse in electronic payment availability could be disastrous for the economy of a nation. Uptime and reliability of paper money carries a potential to rival any purported advantages people associate with a cashless society.
But at the same time many governments seriously hate cash and are actively taking measures against it. A lot of countries have banned high-denomination notes and imposed restrictions on cash transactions. They think that cashless society will help them defeat money laundering once and for all, which means less crime and especially less tax evasion. And I have a feeling that they all are willing to take the risks of cashless society that you've described, because it means more control over the population.
after all we have to choose one that we think is comfortable in its use, not all cash applications must be hated because each place must have different needs, as well as cashless, we only need to adjust according to the needs of the moment.
January 22, 2019, 05:30:11 PM
This could highlight one key reason why paper money might never disappear: consumers and businesses need an alternate currency to serve as a last resort in the event of the internet being compromised or shut down. Even a few hours lapse in electronic payment availability could be disastrous for the economy of a nation. Uptime and reliability of paper money carries a potential to rival any purported advantages people associate with a cashless society.
We've all read countless threads and posts on crypto forums posing the question: "when will bitcoin replace paper money". While mainstream bitcoin adoption could benefit many of us HODL'ers the answer to this question could be: never. Electronic currencies may never be 100% reliable or guaranteed availability around the clock. They are vulnerable to disruptions in service which could carry catastrophic consequences.
If supporters of cashless societies disagree with this base assessment, I would be curious to hear their reasons.
I am more worried about the electric grid shutting down than the internet, losing the Internet for a few days will terrible for the economy but things will go back to normal, losing the electric grid will put at risk the survival of the human civilization, however I agree that for now a form of money that we can touch is necessary which is why governments still print paper money even if they have wanted to make it disappear for decades. We've all read countless threads and posts on crypto forums posing the question: "when will bitcoin replace paper money". While mainstream bitcoin adoption could benefit many of us HODL'ers the answer to this question could be: never. Electronic currencies may never be 100% reliable or guaranteed availability around the clock. They are vulnerable to disruptions in service which could carry catastrophic consequences.
If supporters of cashless societies disagree with this base assessment, I would be curious to hear their reasons.
January 22, 2019, 12:02:08 PM
Quote
This could highlight one key reason why paper money might never disappear:
never say never. cash will also become obsolete some day as the ancestors it replaced. it has its own flaws too. and it is harming the planet as we need to keep cutting trees to print more of it!
besides the world is moving towards digitalization, it is not just money. cash may not be replaced by bitcoin but it will be fully digitized soon. heck it has already started. i can't remember last time i paid for something with cash!
January 22, 2019, 11:27:57 AM
Trust me a lot of more important things depend on the internet compared to cryptocurrencies. With the internet shutting down the most worst thing could happen is that majority of the countries' economy will fall. I didn't mean cryptos are not important but what I mean about that is by the time a blackout happens the government will already be busy having a solution to fix it because a lot of their activities depend on it which mostly can affect their economy and that is counting the digital assets you are concerned about.
January 22, 2019, 11:25:58 AM
Even without internet blackouts, blockchain technology and fiat money will exist simultaneously. Blockchain technology will revolutionize significant transactions and processes but not all. This is the reason why fiat will still exist.
January 22, 2019, 11:18:16 AM
Internet is part of freedom, try to black it out to the world today and we will have World War III just kidding I might be but the impact of internet today is quiet bigger than before almost every institutions involved. Before internet was being criticised until it proved a lot, same thing will happen to crypto I’m pretty that we can have our cashless society in the near future.
January 22, 2019, 11:15:25 AM
I don't think a government can stand without internet for just the whole week, it will crash its economy since banking system rely to the connections. Bitcoin doesn't aim to eliminate paper money, its always going to be there no matter what. Our money has the photos of important people in the history, we can't just throw that away.
January 22, 2019, 10:50:37 AM
Your point is not valid. There are many ways to do transactions offline if "Internet shutdowns" is the case and the most important problem you are referring to.
Yes there are other ways to make transactions, using unique codes, but the article borders on the importance of cash in our rapidly digitalizing world.
In sense when you talk about centralization of the internet (which I should note is only happening in few countries and far between), the governemt also has influence in banks and the distribution of fiat currencies.
January 22, 2019, 09:08:42 AM
Maybe I should start a satellite network for Bitcoin/altcoin transactions only (<= I claim copyright )
Actually, this idea already discussed (<= I claim copyright )https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ny1EQo7p5k
Anyway, in general, we don't have to worry about internet blackout. The probability of that happen (globally) is so minuscule. Shit happens in countries like Zimbabwe but doesn't mean we have to worry about it too much. Nevertheless, I agree with some fail-safe mechanism just in case of internet blackout.
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