Topic: Do we need to be more sensible about certain issues here before it goes far? - page 2. (Read 808 times)

Sorry missed this part:




Well to begin with, if someone in 2011 did copy and pasted something, it was likely for completely different motives than what people are doing now. People didn't really care about post count, and they weren't posting just to post, but to share information. In the case that someone did copy and paste, it probably had a fair amount of their own personal text along with it, such as an opinion or interpretation of the quote they had plagiarized. Intent plays a role in the decision. Someone who purposely claims words as their own, versus someone who uses the wrong format to cite a quote are different things. I'd say its a non issue.

Moderators use their own judgement for every single consideration. A member from 2011 that has 3 or 4 posts deleted per year, versus a new member who has 3 or 4 of their 5 total posts deleted will be shown more leniency. As I said before, intent plays a big role as well. Spamming the forum to increase your post count so you can get a signature advertisement is not the same as getting in a heated debate and yelling at someone. Both posts might be deleted, but the spam is more annoying and intentionally malicious.

There is no magic ban algorithm that moderators use. They look at what someone has done, how often they did it, whether they came here to commit offenses, or whether it was a once in a while people make mistakes type of thing, etc.

Reporters don't need to suggest bans and mods don't have to listen to suggestions anyway. There is exactly 0 pressure that a reporter can put on a mod for a certain outcome. Based on discussions I've had with some moderators I'm sure there is a sufficient amount of discretion and leniency being applied already, so your wall of text seems to be speculation on a non-existent problem, again.

Disclaimer: I have reported plagiarism as far back as 2014. If someone ranked up using copy-pasta I don't see how that is good for the forum but moderators will ultimately decide if a ban is needed.


Who are these banned good posters? Modlog is publicly available - find examples and post them here. You've already admitted in the other thread that you were arguing without looking at poster's history so I'm extremely skeptical towards statements like this.

I've bolded a few parts of your post. Moderators don't need to conform to the unofficial rules, and there is no pressure to do so. The unofficial rules are written as they are, as a guideline created by collective ideas by the staff. If someone doesn't want to take any actions against someone for a rule they don't care for, they don't, "have to". Another moderator probably will though.

Moderators aren't supposed to ban and then gather evidence. Thats frowned upon.

The rules regarding copy and pasting have very little to do with stealing credit for others work. They were created relatively recently because of the emergence of people copy and pasting genuine posts to disguise their spam, mainly for paid signature advertisements.

The forum doesn't have a spirit of decentralization or democracy. Its operated by Theymos, and the staff here are in charge of making sure that information collected in the form of posts are accessible to anyone that wants to read it. Spam makes it harder to find information and derails conversation, so it is not allowed. Thats the extent of it. Users of the site have the right to read and discuss any topic that they'd like, as long as they don't ruin it for the others that want to read and discuss.

Bans are not frequently overturned because they are often the decision of multiple moderators. With clear and shut cases where 90% of someone's posts are copy and pasted or one word responses, moderators will act on their own. If there is any ambiguity, the moderators consult with one another typically until a nearly unanimous decision is made. Its still pretty uncommon, but I'd say the majority of ban "mistakes" that are made, are just the amount of time. Maybe a 14 day ban is more appropriate as a 7 day ban and changed to that instead. Permanent bans are almost never overturned, because they aren't made unless its a clear and shut case.

I know a lot of self important high horseman here will be arriving shortly to voice their black and white snitch to teacher about foul language for a pat on the heard and perhaps more ethos.

However, for the people who always wanted to kick those types up the ass for grassing on you for swearing dropping off to sleep last period.


Should we start to look at the UNOFFICIAL rules and start suggesting some sensible and humanist approach to them.

Now let me first say I do not really include the mods in this. If you are a mod and something is reported to you then there is pressure for you to conform to what you believe the unofficial rules say. If you do not then you would have to spend hours looking through the persons entire post history to decide on a reasonable punishment. So therefore best to ban and await appeal to examine.  

Better if the onus was on the snooper reporter. If you want to go sniffing 5 years back for some copy and pastes words on the way back through that members past history here perhaps start factoring into account the value of their membership here and when report suggest a temp ban and duration of that temp ban.

The problem with perm bans getting over turned .... it does not seem to take place.


The one thing that seems to be most talked about here ( I mean so far only how to get merit for discussing the merit system and it's implications seems to dominate) is the complex issue of plagiarism - taking work and claiming it is your own.  

Now surely this is to protect the original source and the value in what they have created?  (anyway that can be discussed later). and to stop the board being filled with copy and paste material that makes it low value and destroys incentive to post for others.


Let's ask ourselves how can we apply some logic and human reasoning to this entire issue that seems to be blowing up.


1. why does the board care about this?

a/ rampant copy and pasters are sometimes bots or scammers trying to power up accounts to sell or simply to pump posts for sig money?
b/ in extreme cases could be copyright theft?
c/ when copying and pasting from the net can it lower google rankings? and internal copy and past could do the same thing?
d/ even memes may soon constitute copyright theft leave the board open to financial claims?

2/ the most obvious distinction between people copy and pasting without correct or implied reference/citation

a/ rampant copy and pasters bots and scammers ruining the board for financial gain = perm ban yes for sure

b/ those thinking they are being helpful posting an answer to a question from the net (no financial gain) =?

c/ those copy and pasting to be helpful with no financial gain ( incorrect source or mispelling or thinking url will suffice)= ?

d/ those that have copied and pasted something to be helpful years ago perhaps even before the board rules were there =?

e/ those that have copied and pasted a couple of things before icos and financial gain but have been good members for years since =?

f/ meme posters with no (what ever they may now be required to put next to a meme or permission to even use it first =?


So let's imagine the extreme where some poster from 2011 had once copy and pasted a famous quote (obviously not his own more like meme)  from a film as a joke in a certain context or copy and pasted even for instance theymos's own words for guidelines to a noob asking for guidance . He has 25k great posts and done a lot for this board and made some real difference here. (unlike most of the high merit back slappers and high horsemen ). Are we really going to believe this is a net gain for the board to perm ban him for something he posted with no bad intent 5 years ago?

Are we to put them in exactly same zero tolerance catergory as a deliberate scam team member with their bots or low paid copy and paste teams?

Would not a warning for future action be more suitable for the 2011 member?

As far as I can see copy and pasting anything as a joke, helpful or any reason is not a great idea for the user or the board.
This was not even a major thing before the ico scams came along. Perhaps those and the sigs are the main issue.

You have to realise that this could result in a lot of otherwise good posters (people that have made a big difference here) getting banned. I mean of course the only posters that the high merit back slappers believe are good posters are themselves. However asking them to point to one thing they have done or a total of everything they have done and how anything would be different is not met with much except silence.
That does not include all of the top merit holders some are indeed very valuable but I notice the very high self importance ones and those determined to nitpick on the "smaller guy" are essentially not able to provide actions that have made a big difference or any real difference.

Is there forming here a clique of tyrants pushing their own self importance and agendas that do not seem in the spirit of decentralisation and transparency or even democracy.

I may edit this if discussion brings forth some information that I have not considered and requires alteration.

Tip to small guys here - stop trying to ass kiss up to tyrants in the hope of some merit crumbs, better that a fair system (where the top 0.06% don't hog all the merits on an obscure sub board) where your opinion is not instantly of less import because of some gamed board circle jerk system... where your take on things is considered/measured and analysed for worth on an equal footing. Where you are not talked down to like absolute shit for an honest mistake and ridiculed for getting banned.

Once a small clique like this starts to form and starts to gather some support from the usual asslicking mindless slathering saps waiting for a pat on the head you better immediately stand up to it because soon anyone without the 5000 merits and a seat in the backslappers club is going to have a hard time here going against their ideology.

Again not all top merit holders or meta hermits are like this but for sure I have already seen a few.

But of course that is just my own opinion and some may claim groundless ... let's get back to the plagiarism issue and see if through discussion a broad board consensus can be reached on a sensible approach. Even if it changes nothing I would be interested to hear from others (not necessarily the self important tyrants since they are quite boring and predictable).