Pages:
Author

Topic: Do we really need Bitcoin? - page 2. (Read 2944 times)

newbie
Activity: 59
Merit: 0
July 18, 2014, 02:32:40 PM
#21
Thank you for your answers, most of which pose interesting points of view. Before answering the points I consider the most relevant, I noticed some hostility in some of the answers, stating things like I hate Bitcoin and even the reason, apparently because I was scammed to bankrupcy. Since I want to keep the discussion focused on Bitcoin, I will answer briefly your concerns.
I absolutely do not hate Bitcoin. What is more, I already made my part to the community selling some at the time. With Paypal indeed. And no, I was not scammed one single time. I stopped because it was more a proof of concept, I enjoyed building the system but not so much running it and, above all, because I discovered that in the US one can buy a prepaid SIM card withoud providing ID.   


The tone of some of the answers really shocked me. I did not expect to make people angry and that raises some concerns about how do we interpret this. I had seen this reaction with extremely religious and political people, but never in a technical field (maybe in some Windows/Linux and XBox/PS2 discussions among teenagers). In other threads I saw how some users are pushing their friends to join in, others who invest all their life savings and some who blame the victim when someone loses their wallet. Being myself passionate about Bitcoin, I am doing this exercice of scientific skepticism to try to validate my beliefs about this matter. I am educated about the technicalities of Bitcoin and I follow the current news. I would like to invite you to make this exercise of introspection with a neutral and passion-less mentality.


Now I would answer some of your most interesting points. Thank you again for your time.

Bitcoin gives me the freedom to easily and securely store and transfer value without the help of a middleman or the permission of an authority.

In a world of ever increasing capital controls, yes I need this freedom.

Does it require some responsibility on my part? Of course. Freedom isn't free.

You are right, and this is an important fact. Nevertheless, I fail to see the practical implications in the everyday life. Could you please provide an example were these controls pose a regular problem to people? It is true that it would be hard to move large capitals to another country, but people do not have regulations to pay for groceries, electronics or a house, for example.

Simple don't use an PRNG.
Here is a very powerful, unhackable and easy to use RNG
Good point. After all one cannot have both security and convenience. But careful when intutively using systems as throwing two dices. Often times the distributions are not as constant at it may seem.

May we ask why your site is down - http://www.donotcompare.com? Did you get scammed by accepting an insecure currency in exchange for a more secure currency ?
inBitweTrust, thanks for your long answer. I already explained what happened to my site and why I don't think that it is relevant. Anyway, even if I were scammed, what does it have to do with the security of the currency?


A)I agree, that might work. But at this point I don't see the difference with traditional metal coins and paper bills. And the risks of the previous point.
If someone steals my wallet full of fiat usd there is little hope of getting my cash back. If someone steals by cellphone with my bitcoin wallet that is secured than I can retrieve and use my bitcoins with my backup and the thief has almost no chance of using or stealing my bitcoins.
Good point. You solved the problem of losing/stealing the phone. But there is still the problem with malware. Sure, fiat has it too, and it happens often. But with fiat these problems are reversible, with Bitcoin unfortunately they are not.

A)  I agree that the governments (or the classes that control them) have way too much control over the currency. But this problem comes from really long ago. And the traditional way to deal with it are offshore investments.

Offshore investments are much more expensive and complicated to setup than bitcoin. They are also far less secure as governments have been successfully going after "terrorist" and money laundering individuals no matter which country they hide their wealth in.
I am talking about about offshore investments, not capital/tax evasion.



A)  National (or global) instabilities are a problem of the rich. If you have less wealth than a threshold ($100,000 I think?) your deposits are guaranteed.

Inflation actually hurts the middle class and poor most. Your deposits are not guaranteed to do anything but decrease in value. You can guarantee that you will lose 5-8% a year in the US and 25-55% in countries like Argentina. You are also making the false assumption that Fiat currencies never fail completely as history has shown otherwise.
That is a good point, fiat currencies can lose all their value.


A)   So are Paypal/Visa/MasterCard, etc.
Making the assumption that the unbanked and underbanked don't exist in the world. How provincial.
A)  Security
Bitcoin is as secure or insecure as you choose to make it. Example - selling Bitcoin for paypal fiat is just plain stupid.
I appreciate your passion and I understand that it is a sensitive subject. I'd rather keep the tone neutral and a rational discussion.


A)    If you say that Visa's fee is higher... well, that doesn't seem to be a problem for most people, considering the advantages (chargebacks and insurances).
Xapo and other merchants offer insurance as well. Clients can use escrow to protect themselves and businesses prefer not to deal with chargebacks.
The problem I see with escrow is that it must be trusted by both parties. These entities (trusted by many people) will be scarce and thus they can impose high fees. In addition, these trusted entities can always side with the buyer (for example) if they chose to. Is it the same as Paypal? Isn't it centralization? Theoretically you can use whatever payment gateway you can find, but the trusted ones are few (Paypal and few others).


A)    Bank accounts are NOT frozen for the most part of people. If you bank freezes your account often, I guess that you are still a niche market.
Bank accounts are temporarily frozen or permanently all the time for many people even if they are conducting 100% legal business. Ever hear of Operation Choke point or the Cypress Bail ins?
I agree. The current banking system has big flaws.


A)    Your wealth can be gone in a matter of seconds for reasons you might don't event understand
This does happen all the time with traditional payment methods. You don't think hackers attack traditional fiat too?
Crackers attack the fiat system all the time. And they succeed. And you call the bank and have your money back. With Bitcoin you call the Waaaahmbulance (I liked that picture!).


A)    Centralization problem. 

So because there is a risk of less decentralization with Bitcoin we should go straight back to using a centralized solution instead. What is your point?

My point is that I'd rather trust an established system with accountability and traceability than an anonymous mining pool without accountability to make them self-control. I think it is immensely more likely that a mining pool starts a 51% attack to take as many Bitcoin as possible and then disappear than my government to start printing money non-stop and the responsibles disappear. Of course it could happend (and happened, unfortunately, as well as in Bitcoin with MtGox, Bitcoinica et al and their hacks). I am just talking about posibilities. Nirvana fallacy if you want. Just because the current banking system is not perfect it doesn't mean that we need to go all-in in an experimental, anonymous currency.


A)  Anonymous transfers incentive thefts and blackmail.
You are ignoring all the thefts and corruption that exist within Fiat that dwarfs the corruption scam artists using bitcoin. You don't have to be anonymous to steal money from people. People can easily be manipulated into thinking that they aren't being robbed blind. one example out of many - Economists now have over 5 different ways of calculating the CPI. When they normally cite inflation they use the formula that doesn't include food or fuel. Real inflation is actually closer to 5-8 % in the US. This is theft and hurts the middle class and poor more-so. 
Yes, I see your point. But again, the fact that you can extort with fiat doesn't mean we should use a currency with which extorsion can be easier.

A)  ....price instability and deflation.

Volatility is a valid criticism but Bitcoin is provably becoming more stable so in the longterm should not be an issue. The deflationary spiral argument is unfounded and research from payment processors like Bitpay have proven that spending actually increases during rapid deflationary bubbles.

I meant that I don't find these two criticisms valid. Price volatility and deflation have nothing to do with Bitcoin itself. They are just market eventualities and, as you say, it will stabilize over time.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
July 18, 2014, 11:04:21 AM
#20
Well,I suppose yes,due to many reasons.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1029
July 18, 2014, 10:39:11 AM
#19
If there wasn't such a need and a demand for bitcoin. Bitcoin wouldn't be as big as it is. The free market has decided. Yes we need bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
July 18, 2014, 10:25:39 AM
#18
We don't need anything really...I mean do we need Cash?  Nope...it is nice to have though.

Bitcoin is something of a game for me anyway...I used to play a lot of video games trying to collect items...now I try to collect bitcoins and at least they have some value....none the less it is just a game/fun for me
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
July 18, 2014, 10:06:52 AM
#17
Quote
Some proposed solutions involve hardware wallets, but this solves no problem. How can we be sure that the RNG is not backdoored?

Simple don't use an PRNG.

Here is a very powerful, unhackable and easy to use RNG
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 501
July 18, 2014, 10:05:25 AM
#16
May we ask why your site is down - http://www.donotcompare.com? Did you get scammed by accepting an insecure currency in exchange for a more secure currency ?


A) If you do so, you trust that Google(Android) or Apple(iOS) are not evil (modifying the RNG, keylogging you...) or incompetent (allowing a rogue third-party app to do the former). If you lose your phone (or it is stolen) your money is gone. If you are scammed by the seller, it is lost.

Nirvana fallacy. Just because Bitcoin isn't 100% secure doesn't mean that it cannot be used much more securely than cash or credit cards.

A)I agree, that might work. But at this point I don't see the difference with traditional metal coins and paper bills. And the risks of the previous point.


If someone steals my wallet full of fiat usd there is little hope of getting my cash back. If someone steals by cellphone with my bitcoin wallet that is secured than I can retrieve and use my bitcoins with my backup and the thief has almost no chance of using or stealing my bitcoins.


A)  I agree that the governments (or the classes that control them) have way too much control over the currency. But this problem comes from really long ago. And the traditional way to deal with it are offshore investments.

Offshore investments are much more expensive and complicated to setup than bitcoin. They are also far less secure as governments have been successfully going after "terrorist" and money laundering individuals no matter which country they hide their wealth in.

A)  National (or global) instabilities are a problem of the rich. If you have less wealth than a threshold ($100,000 I think?) your deposits are guaranteed.

Inflation actually hurts the middle class and poor most. Your deposits are not guaranteed to do anything but decrease in value. You can guarantee that you will lose 5-8% a year in the US and 25-55% in countries like Argentina. You are also making the false assumption that Fiat currencies never fail completely as history has shown otherwise.


A)   So are Paypal/Visa/MasterCard, etc.

Making the assumption that the unbanked and underbanked don't exist in the world. How provincial.

A)    If you say that Visa's fee is higher... well, that doesn't seem to be a problem for most people, considering the advantages (chargebacks and insurances).

Xapo and other merchants offer insurance as well. Clients can use escrow to protect themselves and businesses prefer not to deal with chargebacks.

A)    Western Union can send money to many places. Of course with a fee.

Bitcoin 6 pennies or free and I get the money instantly. W/U costs 22usd for 1-2 business day transfer.
Day and night difference.

A)    Bank accounts are NOT frozen for the most part of people. If you bank freezes your account often, I guess that you are still a niche market.

Bank accounts are temporarily frozen or permanently all the time for many people even if they are conducting 100% legal business. Ever hear of Operation Choke point or the Cypress Bail ins?

A)    Your wealth can be gone in a matter of seconds for reasons you might don't event understand

This does happen all the time with traditional payment methods. You don't think hackers attack traditional fiat too?

A)    Centralization problem.  

So because there is a risk of less decentralization with Bitcoin we should go straight back to using a centralized solution instead. What is your point?

A)   Future transaction fees. It is not clear how it will work once the block reward is negligible.

In a free market without government regulations you can expect fees to remain low if not get cheaper. Keep in mind that even when the block reward drops the value of Bitcoin will also be higher as well.

A)  Conversion to other currencies (in anonymous but somehow not shady exchanges)

What?

A)  Security

Bitcoin is as secure or insecure as you choose to make it. Example - selling Bitcoin for paypal fiat is just plain stupid.

A)  Anonymous transfers incentive thefts and blackmail.

You are ignoring all the thefts and corruption that exist within Fiat that dwarfs the corruption scam artists using bitcoin. You don't have to be anonymous to steal money from people. People can easily be manipulated into thinking that they aren't being robbed blind. one example out of many - Economists now have over 5 different ways of calculating the CPI. When they normally cite inflation they use the formula that doesn't include food or fuel. Real inflation is actually closer to 5-8 % in the US. This is theft and hurts the middle class and poor more-so.  

A)  ....price instability and deflation.

Volatility is a valid criticism but Bitcoin is provably becoming more stable so in the longterm should not be an issue. The deflationary spiral argument is unfounded and research from payment processors like Bitpay have proven that spending actually increases during rapid deflationary bubbles.

full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
July 18, 2014, 08:42:45 AM
#15
Interesting read, I would say that we don't NEED Bitcoin in the traditional sense of what need means, it's just an alternative preferred by some.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
July 18, 2014, 05:22:00 AM
#14
No we don't. Bitcoin will be replaced with bitcoin 2.0 of some form soon enough.

Bitcoin will eventually be bitcoin 2.0.

It is bitcoin .9.2.1 right now.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
July 18, 2014, 05:18:41 AM
#13
No we don't. Bitcoin will be replaced with bitcoin 2.0 of some form soon enough.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
July 18, 2014, 05:06:31 AM
#12
OP's website is "Buy Bitcoin with Paypal".

I would hate Bitcoin too after trying to sell a non-refundable currency via a haphazardly refundable payment processor.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
July 18, 2014, 04:49:28 AM
#10
newbie
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
July 18, 2014, 04:45:54 AM
#9
Quote
If you do so, you trust that Google(Android) or Apple(iOS) are not evil (modifying the RNG, keylogging you...) or incompetent (allowing a rogue third-party app to do the former). If you lose your phone (or it is stolen) your money is gone. If you are scammed by the seller, it is lost.

The answer to Bitcoin's security problem is very simple: do not place all your trust in one place. A very simple example: suppose a traditional wallet on your average person's computer. One set of keys in one place. Very easy to steal. Vulnerable to drive-by exploits, trojans, social engineering attacks - etc. But we can add as many keys and factors as we need to protect a wallet. If the standard Bitcoin client included SMS security codes, it would make stealing coins extremely difficult. Now you need control over the victim's phone to move money and they can issue the final approval by inputting a code. Ultra-paranoid mode would use additional isolated devices.

Though I agree that realistically, anyone can be hacked given enough time and effort... but there does come a point where the probability vs reward isn't worth it for the attacker. Creating these conditions is trivial.


Quote
I agree, that might work. But at this point I don't see the difference with traditional metal coins and paper bills. And the risks of the previous point.

A better idea would be to use multiple redundant keys. Once again, there is no reason to put all your eggs in one basket. With the above security proposal - backup keys could be written to a USB drive or encrypted and saved to a remote server at wallet creation for use in the event that access to the phone was lost. Most of these security proposals are already in wide use.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
July 18, 2014, 04:41:27 AM
#8
maybe you don't need it, but i think most of users here need it Grin

Quote
A) So are Paypal/Visa/MasterCard, etc.
3 of these payment are credit card. (paypal needs credit card). i know in advance country it's very easy to apply credit card, but in third world country it will be harder, too many requirements and it's annoying. don't forget monthly fee Sad
and i don't like credit card, they urge me to spend more for consumer product with their discount

Quote
A) Western Union can send money to many places. Of course with a fee.
I used this service once and never want to use again
their fee is horrible. with bitcoin i can send money to my family with smaller fee, and quick confirmation
hero member
Activity: 592
Merit: 500
July 18, 2014, 04:38:46 AM
#7
Do we really need Bitcoin?

Yes, I really need Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
July 18, 2014, 04:36:37 AM
#6
Welcome to Bitcoin, I suggest you read the White Paper

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
full member
Activity: 127
Merit: 100
July 18, 2014, 04:32:53 AM
#5
You seem to ask a question really is not the right forum, because everyone in this forum will tell you yes, then I do not understand what you're trying to get the message
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
July 18, 2014, 04:20:33 AM
#4
we need a tl;dr for the tl;dr...

also, if the OP has given up on bitcoin then why not go to another forum entirely, maybe PayPalTalk or VisaTalk where so much must be happening that he approves of?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
July 18, 2014, 04:16:02 AM
#3
Look into gen 2.0 cryptos, they are designed to solve many of those issues.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
July 18, 2014, 04:14:35 AM
#2
1) My bank don't allow to withdrawn my money in 1 hour.

2) My bank block at a certain amount pay per card ... per day and per week and per month.

3) In 2014, My gov. allow to bank to freeze or stealth money from my account without my approbation (Bail out to Bank run)


... that why, since december 2013 ... i convert all my life economy in Bitcoin.
... because, money IS MY MONEY.



Global crisis is in party because PEOPLE are dumb and trust the bank to allow withdrawn money.
At this moment, only bitcoin allow this.

not the silver (bank deposit)
not the gold (bank deposit)
not other fucking toilet paper money (eXXXXtra fee to convert)
Pages:
Jump to: