Do whales harm themselves with the dumps?

alani123

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Quote from: AtheistAKASaneBrain on March 21, 2015, 02:17:38 PM

Quote from: cafucafucafu on March 20, 2015, 02:22:19 PM

For all of us holders and non-holders, an organic rise in the price would be beneficial. A steady rise will only bring in new holders and users. However these pumps and dumps really delay a slow rise and they put people off adoption.

Would is not benefit the whales more just to hold rather than keep putting people off with their dumps?

They usually know what they are doing, otherwise they all would end up broke. They buy tons of BTC slowly when the price seems dead and dump later.
To stop this there is only one way: mass adoption.

All big investors prefer to diversify their assets in order to hedge some of the risk. Big Bitcoin traders are most likely keeping a small portion of their funds with Bitcoin. Yet that's enough for the to manipulate the market.

AtheistAKASaneBrain

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Quote from: cafucafucafu on March 20, 2015, 02:22:19 PM

For all of us holders and non-holders, an organic rise in the price would be beneficial. A steady rise will only bring in new holders and users. However these pumps and dumps really delay a slow rise and they put people off adoption.

Would is not benefit the whales more just to hold rather than keep putting people off with their dumps?

They usually know what they are doing, otherwise they all would end up broke. They buy tons of BTC slowly when the price seems dead and dump later.
To stop this there is only one way: mass adoption.

Hfleer

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Quote from: Morecoin Freeman on March 21, 2015, 12:45:21 PM

I think it does. The technology is already developed what it needs now is adoption.

Just my opinion. What do I know.

Bitcoin code is evolving every day. Just check the Github for commits for example. Also the services aroudn bitcoin is what will make it successful or not. the price is just a function of the adoption. Not vice-versa.

btc4lifer

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Whales want to increase their stash/cash just as much as everyone else hence the pump/dump fleeces those who think they can trade but are really gambling.

Morecoin Freeman

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I think it does. The technology is already developed what it needs now is adoption.

Just my opinion. What do I know.

Hfleer

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Quote from: Morecoin Freeman on March 21, 2015, 12:35:10 PM

Quote from: Hfleer on March 21, 2015, 12:32:52 PM

Quote from: Morecoin Freeman on March 21, 2015, 12:28:31 PM

Oh and to answer OP more specifically:
Most big players in bitcoin trading do not care about the bitcoin technology, which saddens me being a bitcoin enthusiast myself.
They will just keep pumping and dumping, leeching more and more money out of the market. That is also one of the many reasons we keep seeing lower prices.

How will this end? No one knows...

Trading has nothing to do with the technologie anyways. One is a financial decision, the other is a technical innovation.

Please show me how your argument is relevant.

Well OP asked how the big players in trading are not concerned with hurting bitcoin by pumping and dumping. That's why I addressed these big players, for the most part, do not care about bitcoin at all. And I believe the pump and dumps indeed hurt bitcoins image and the likelihood of this technology going mainstream.

The thing is, that Bitcoin has nothing to do with the price. The technologie doesn't care if it trades at 1000$ or 10$. Maybe you and OP confuse that aspect of it.

Morecoin Freeman

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Quote from: Hfleer on March 21, 2015, 12:32:52 PM

Quote from: Morecoin Freeman on March 21, 2015, 12:28:31 PM

Oh and to answer OP more specifically:
Most big players in bitcoin trading do not care about the bitcoin technology, which saddens me being a bitcoin enthusiast myself.
They will just keep pumping and dumping, leeching more and more money out of the market. That is also one of the many reasons we keep seeing lower prices.

How will this end? No one knows...

Trading has nothing to do with the technologie anyways. One is a financial decision, the other is a technical innovation.

Please show me how your argument is relevant.

Well OP asked how the big players in trading are not concerned with hurting bitcoin by pumping and dumping. That's why I addressed these big players, for the most part, do not care about bitcoin at all. And I believe the pump and dumps indeed hurt bitcoins image and the likelihood of this technology going mainstream.

Hfleer

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Quote from: Morecoin Freeman on March 21, 2015, 12:28:31 PM

Oh and to answer OP more specifically:
Most big players in bitcoin trading do not care about the bitcoin technology, which saddens me being a bitcoin enthusiast myself.
They will just keep pumping and dumping, leeching more and more money out of the market. That is also one of the many reasons we keep seeing lower prices.

How will this end? No one knows...

Trading has nothing to do with the technologie anyways. One is a financial decision, the other is a technical innovation.

Please show me how your argument is relevant.

Morecoin Freeman

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Oh and to answer OP more specifically:
Most big players in bitcoin trading do not care about the bitcoin technology, which saddens me being a bitcoin enthusiast myself.
They will just keep pumping and dumping, leeching more and more money out of the market. That is also one of the many reasons we keep seeing lower prices.

How will this end? No one knows...

Hfleer

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Quote from: Morecoin Freeman on March 21, 2015, 12:20:01 PM

It is more profitable for traders to have volatility. In this market you can make money every day.

I see holding bitcoin, and waiting for everyone else to push the price up for you, as way more of a gamble. You're not in control of this situation at all which is too risky for me. You let the whales play with your balls. If they decide to dump you are rekt.

Thus, if you know how to trade, multiplying your investment by trading is more likely than by playing the holding and waiting game.

But moving the market can be very bad for you too.

Google slippage.

Morecoin Freeman

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It is more profitable for traders to have volatility. In this market you can make money every day.

I see holding bitcoin, and waiting for everyone else to push the price up for you, as way more of a gamble. You're not in control of this situation at all which is too risky for me. You let the whales play with your balls. If they decide to dump you are rekt.

Thus, if you know how to trade, multiplying your investment by trading is more likely than by playing the holding and waiting game.

Hfleer

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Its a free market anyway, so you don't "harm" anyone, because entering those markets was risky to begin with. It's not like you suddenly cheated someone.

gargantuar

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Usually they just harm others:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/diver-encased-whale-feces-swim-article-1.2091056

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Quote from: cafucafucafu on March 20, 2015, 07:13:26 PM

Quote from: randy8777 on March 20, 2015, 06:16:06 PM

they are whale for a reason. they know exactly what to do without losing a single penny.

Not necessarily. Early miners with thousands of coins are not necessarily good traders.

instead of quoting a small fraction of my post you can also read that i am talking about whale traders and not early miners.

alani123

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http://orderbook.info/ is a great example of why bitcoin sell or buy walls don't really mean all that much.

Orders that would be normal if we were talking about another market are huge for bitcoin. Here's an example: The slaying of bearwhale. An investor puts a large order well below market rates and the market takes about six hours to chunk through it.

Now back to orderbook.info. Do you see how the orders on top rarely exceed the size of $1000? That still happens while we get a trade volume close to $20m each day. If you're looking to find support levels by looking at a bitcoin order book you're a fool. It's so easy to cancel an order in bitcoin exchanges that there's not even a point to base your predictions on order books.

Despite al that, some investors willing to diversify their assets and even take risks put money in bitcoin. They most likely look for quick returns but also don't mind to take loss since they have millions on their hands. Given that manipulating a market of this size and nature by creating fake demand is easy, the come in and out quickly.

Put simply, whales that deal with bitcoin don't care about hurting themselves (especially for the extremely short term), they care about manipulating the market.

Hfleer

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Its amazing what people think that traders with bigger bankrolls do....

If someone has enough money to move a market, does he really need to be intelligent and superior to all other market participants?
I really doubt it...

Many whales beat the market because they can do off-exchange trades for huge amounts. Kind of a dark lquidity pool they can tap into, if they want.

Q7

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I think the whales consist of people or organization which will see a huge benefit if bitcoin is dead. It's not that they will make money in every pump and dump and they actually have the unlimited funding. To them it's not about making money in bitcoin but rather seeing people losing confidence in the bitcoin system by making the price crash and look awful.

cafucafucafu

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Quote from: randy8777 on March 20, 2015, 06:16:06 PM

they are whale for a reason. they know exactly what to do without losing a single penny.

Not necessarily. Early miners with thousands of coins are not necessarily good traders.

JimboToronto

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You're never too old to think young.

Let's not overlook the possibility of people or groups sacrificing a bit by dumping a few thousand coins at a fairly small loss in order to lower the exchange price that determines the price they pay for tens of thousands of coins off-exchange, i.e. from a mining consortium.

Not everyone is a day trader.

Dilla

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Dump coins, cause market drop, buy more back at lower price, repeat.
They hurt themselves if another whale makes a bigger buy just after they dump, and the price jumps higher than they sold.
Many whales work together to manipulate the market.
Everyone holding/trading a small amount of btc are just gambling on the moves of the whales.

Topic: Do whales harm themselves with the dumps? (Read 1862 times)