let wait a few years for black hat to have a real revelation
money is not fungible
money does not have to be fungible
blackhat just thinks a narrow path that fits whatever he is promoting
2 people working the same job same hours same location.. one only needs to work 40 minutes for $10, the other works an hour for $10
walking between 2 shops on same major road. $2 can buy a whole loaf of bread, however a mile away that same $2 wont be enough to buy a whole loaf of same brand bread, same day within 20 minutes..
money does not mean the same value to different people
heck even someone receiving $100 from a relative on their birthday is treated differently by the tax man than someone receiving $100 from a days income from work. or $100 in investment gains from a investment sell
1btc to someone in a icelandic/slavic region is worth $25k of mining cost
1btc to someone in the pacific island regions is worth $110k of mining cost
1btc to the market traders is worth $67k
someone would prefer to mine a fresh mined coin for a premium than receive mixed coin even at discount
Topic: Do you think Bitcoin is fungible? - page 2. (Read 592 times)
If Bitcoin's original plan was total privacy, what's the essence of the blockchain?
- Total privacy wasn't the original plan.
- Just because the blockchain is transparent, it doesn't mean coins are non-fungible.
This isn't supposed to be an argument BlackHat, Bitcoin isn't fungible
The fact that you can spend any coin at the exact same exchange rate as any other coin proves it is fungible. Literally, point me to any coin you want and I can point you to a place where you can spend it or trade it normally. That's the definition of fungibility.
I think you're both confusing privacy with anonymity. Bitcoin was never anonymous and it cannot stop the government from snooping on you through centralized means. (Although you could maintain anonymity as well as privacy, if you really wanted to.)
There are way more similarities than differences between those two words; only that the latter would mean - being given permission based on user's discretion - Big question is, do the government seek a user's attention to snoop into their TRN history? Secondly, do you not know that the blockchain is served as a public ledger? Which means, in most cases, without mixers or any other interference, there's absolutely no guarantee for privacy?The sentence on quote from my post (which isn't part of this particular point) has a correlation with these; without a robust procurement for "anonymity/privacy", Bitcoin isn't entirely "fungible"!
If Bitcoin's original plan was total privacy, what's the essence of the blockchain?
And in that case, the police would knock your door... you'd have some explaining to do.
For once more, that's a privacy problem, not a fungibility problem. The fact that I'd be directly tied with ISIS doesn't make the coins less valuable than the rest.If Bitcoin's original plan was total privacy, what's the essence of the blockchain?
I think you're both confusing privacy with anonymity. Bitcoin was never anonymous and it cannot stop the government from snooping on you through centralized means. (Although you could maintain anonymity as well as privacy, if you really wanted to.)
So bitcoin can be fungible if the merchant doesn't care where your coins coming from.
That's the point!! But I think that's not just gonna workout immediately..YeS! All we ever wanted was having Bitcoin as a full-fledge decentralized coin Thus, the lightening network was made for offchain transactions [without having to be recorded on the block chain already]. Mixers are also on the same spot, all to fully achieving bitcoiner's anonymity..The governs are fully aware of the loopholes in transacting "tainted" coins, which is why they're issuing out censorships.
If you can track its history, how can it be fungible?
Being able to track the history is a privacy problem, not a fungibility problem.
Might be. I am getting my coins from an exchange and sig camp payments. I don't have any other coin income. So If my sig camp payments are tainted, It might cause me problems. I heard binance locking people's accounts randomly without a reason and these people did their KYC already. That might be the reason why they do that.
That might be a good reason to dump Binance.So, when cryptosize above said, people can take them bad coins for a discount, his example already violated the description of fungible.
No, it didn't. Just because there might be dumb people who want to trade their "tainted" coins at a 50% discount, doesn't make it the truth. These people can use decentralized solutions to trade them anonymously with no "discount" BS. And when nobody wants these tainted coins, that means these coins can't act as currency anymore. If nobody wants them, they ain't fungible. They can't perform. They can't function. (except for you, to you they are still fungible.
Except for me, and for every single person out there who's using decentralized exchanges, or exchanges which don't discriminate their traders based on inaccurate blockchain analysis. And in that case, the police would knock your door... you'd have some explaining to do.
For once more, that's a privacy problem, not a fungibility problem. The fact that I'd be directly tied with ISIS doesn't make the coins less valuable than the rest. I agree that "tainted" Bitcoin is nonsense.
Since decentralized swaps, mixers etc. are possible for Bitcoin, it is technically impossible to filter out "tainted" coins.
If I use a decentralized atomic swap to trade my untraceable Monero for somebody's "tainted" Bitcoin, then how would the simple act of owning that Bitcoin make it legal for some third party to harass me? Even if the last owner did something illegal with that Bitcoin, that connection is severed the moment I become the new owner.
Any business that supports withholding a users funds over such unlawful reasoning such as: 'the user supposedly owns tainted coins' is a criminal business and should be avoided like the plague.
Since decentralized swaps, mixers etc. are possible for Bitcoin, it is technically impossible to filter out "tainted" coins.
If I use a decentralized atomic swap to trade my untraceable Monero for somebody's "tainted" Bitcoin, then how would the simple act of owning that Bitcoin make it legal for some third party to harass me? Even if the last owner did something illegal with that Bitcoin, that connection is severed the moment I become the new owner.
Any business that supports withholding a users funds over such unlawful reasoning such as: 'the user supposedly owns tainted coins' is a criminal business and should be avoided like the plague.
you can filter out tainted coins
Ok. I swap my mixxed Bitcoin for Monero, send that Monero between wallets and swap that Monero back for a mixxed Bitcoin. Explain how you would justify or even filter out a "tainted" Bitcoin in this situation. The fact that you cannot tear up a 1 dollar bill and reconstitute it with the parts of a different dollar bill is what makes it non-fungible. The same cannot be said for 1 Bitcoin.
BTW, do you know your coins' history? You do know that ISIS coins might be sitting on your wallet right now, right?
Might be. I am getting my coins from an exchange and sig camp payments. I don't have any other coin income. So If my sig camp payments are tainted, It might cause me problems. I heard binance locking people's accounts randomly without a reason and these people did their KYC already. That might be the reason why they do that.
part of a AML investigation is for CEX to analyse coins.. let the transaction process but report it authorities if it meets a suspicion threshold
if they get an alert back in the form of court order then the CEX would freeze an account, but the CEX cannot explain why. its then upto the authorities to contact the user and explain when the authorities are ready with their investigation..
yep under court order and AML policy CEX cant explain or inform a user is under investigation
yep under AML policy CEX cant freeze/seize funds without a court order
CEX's that dont quite follow all of regulations adopt their own business practices of putting terms&conditions into their user agreements that pretty much give them permission to halt account activity.. so its worth reading regulations and specific T&C's of CEX you use, to see if your coins will be held up by regulation after a certain point. or earlier by businesses own T&C's
most ethical CEX wont add on T&C's that hold onto funds without a court order. most they will do is stop facilitating service and just ask you to withdraw funds without a regulator court order
but for all other people interested
if you do a deal with a mining pool whereby you will pushtx your coin privately to them as a transaction spending your coin as fee's (to them). (destroying coinage/taint) that then becomes fresh new coin as a coin reward(the fee excess)
this new coin has no taint(it appears on blockchain as new mined coin reward). which a pool can then give to a user as new coin, clean coin..
enjoy a proper way to 'clean coin', just have to do a deal with a mining pool to get it
How do you know that your transaction will end up in that specific pool and not somewhere else (maybe even a random solo miner)?if you do a deal with a mining pool whereby you will pushtx your coin privately to them as a transaction spending your coin as fee's (to them). (destroying coinage/taint) that then becomes fresh new coin as a coin reward(the fee excess)
this new coin has no taint(it appears on blockchain as new mined coin reward). which a pool can then give to a user as new coin, clean coin..
enjoy a proper way to 'clean coin', just have to do a deal with a mining pool to get it
answered and asked
Obviously there should be a way to push it to a specific mempool, otherwise the risk of randomness is not worth it...
And of course you'd need some "networking" in regards to pool owners to cut such a deal.
'pushtx' is a known term to push a tx directly to mining pool
some mining pools have their own communication page to cut and paste your rawtx(hex) to them directly. where they have deals inplace for that access page
Well, yes bitcoin is fungible because we can exchange it for fiat and once that happens we can use it to buy prime commodities that we need every day. And not only does it become a form of investment in the short and long-term, it also becomes an opportunity for unemployed people and opportunities for business people.
Apparently, everything that bitcoin can do is here to help all people who will understand and find out how it can contribute to the lives of every individual, right?
Apparently, everything that bitcoin can do is here to help all people who will understand and find out how it can contribute to the lives of every individual, right?
but for all other people interested
if you do a deal with a mining pool whereby you will pushtx your coin privately to them as a transaction spending your coin as fee's (to them). (destroying coinage/taint) that then becomes fresh new coin as a coin reward(the fee excess)
this new coin has no taint(it appears on blockchain as new mined coin reward). which a pool can then give to a user as new coin, clean coin..
enjoy a proper way to 'clean coin', just have to do a deal with a mining pool to get it
How do you know that your transaction will end up in that specific pool and not somewhere else (maybe even a random solo miner)?if you do a deal with a mining pool whereby you will pushtx your coin privately to them as a transaction spending your coin as fee's (to them). (destroying coinage/taint) that then becomes fresh new coin as a coin reward(the fee excess)
this new coin has no taint(it appears on blockchain as new mined coin reward). which a pool can then give to a user as new coin, clean coin..
enjoy a proper way to 'clean coin', just have to do a deal with a mining pool to get it
answered and asked
you do a deal with a pool to specifically handle your transactions and not broadcast it to the relay network but purposefully send it to a specific pool
now you know this, care to wonder why the junk scammers are soo happily spending their scam wins as fee's...
1+1=2
this cleaning trick has been used for a while now.. and the cat is out of the bag.. its why government are now trying to identify miners at the electric supply(mining electric tax) and also at the income/gains side (reward splits/payout) to see whom gets more than deserved to find whom are doing these deals
Obviously there should be a way to push it to a specific mempool, otherwise the risk of randomness is not worth it...
And of course you'd need some "networking" in regards to pool owners to cut such a deal.
BTW, do you know your coins' history? You do know that ISIS coins might be sitting on your wallet right now, right?
You'd never use them, but the guy who sold you the house most likely would.Because, you know, when you buy a house, the state knows who you are, it's not an anonymous transaction for some weed, so prepare yourself for some trouble if even a single satoshi is deemed "tainted"... 
It stops being peer-to-peer cash if you deposit it in a CEX. Their platform, their rules. If they discriminate based on inaccurate bullshit, then I'd never use them, especially for such large amount. If you want instant liquidation, then you'll probably have to weigh the tradeoffs.And in that case, the police would knock your door... you'd have some explaining to do.
I know people who bought their first house with Bitcoin. Due to ridiculous rent prices (it's not just Airbnb) it makes sense for someone to buy a house if he can afford it.
Regarding your question, I think some people would accept them, but they would probably ask for a discount (maybe up to 50%). Paying 0.5 BTC for 1 "tainted" BTC would seem like a good deal. As always, it's the free market that dictates what should be done.
Some would even exchange it for XMR afterwards, temporarily at least.
Some would even exchange it for XMR afterwards, temporarily at least.
Yes I have heard about deals like that before.
So are you telling me, it wouldn’t make any difference to you if I wanted to sell you some coins with very bad history? (Maybe Isis used my coins to fund their operations or I got my coins from an exchange hack and I am that hacker) I want to sell you my coins directly, without using any third party exchange/mixer. Would you take this deal?.
Yep. No problem. Amazing.
BTW, do you know your coins' history? You do know that ISIS coins might be sitting on your wallet right now, right?
Might be. I am getting my coins from an exchange and sig camp payments. I don't have any other coin income. So If my sig camp payments are tainted, It might cause me problems. I heard binance locking people's accounts randomly without a reason and these people did their KYC already. That might be the reason why they do that.
Would he take that deal?
What kind of question is that? Is it fungibility or morals the topic?Fungi.
Let's see what fungibility means again.
being something (such as money or a commodity) of such a nature that one part or quantity may be replaced by another equal part or quantity in paying a debt or settling an account
"One part or quantity may be replaced by another equal part or quantity"
So, when cryptosize above said, people can take them bad coins for a discount, his example already violated the description of fungible. And when nobody wants these tainted coins, that means these coins can't act as currency anymore. If nobody wants them, they ain't fungible. They can't perform. They can't function. (except for you, to you they are still fungible. The FBI will buy that story I think, good luck
)btw this description of fungible is the first result on google. I didn't cherry pick it.
but for all other people interested
if you do a deal with a mining pool whereby you will pushtx your coin privately to them as a transaction spending your coin as fee's (to them). (destroying coinage/taint) that then becomes fresh new coin as a coin reward(the fee excess)
this new coin has no taint(it appears on blockchain as new mined coin reward). which a pool can then give to a user as new coin, clean coin..
enjoy a proper way to 'clean coin', just have to do a deal with a mining pool to get it
How do you know that your transaction will end up in that specific pool and not somewhere else (maybe even a random solo miner)?if you do a deal with a mining pool whereby you will pushtx your coin privately to them as a transaction spending your coin as fee's (to them). (destroying coinage/taint) that then becomes fresh new coin as a coin reward(the fee excess)
this new coin has no taint(it appears on blockchain as new mined coin reward). which a pool can then give to a user as new coin, clean coin..
enjoy a proper way to 'clean coin', just have to do a deal with a mining pool to get it
answered and asked
you do a deal with a pool to specifically handle your transactions and not broadcast it to the relay network but purposefully send it to a specific pool
now you know this, care to wonder why the junk scammers are soo happily spending their scam wins as fee's...
1+1=2
this cleaning trick has been used for a while now.. and the cat is out of the bag.. its why government are now trying to identify miners at the electric supply(mining electric tax) and also at the income/gains side (reward splits/payout) to see whom gets more than deserved to find whom are doing these deals
So are you telling me, it wouldn’t make any difference to you if I wanted to sell you some coins with very bad history? (Maybe Isis used my coins to fund their operations or I got my coins from an exchange hack and I am that hacker) I want to sell you my coins directly, without using any third party exchange/mixer. Would you take this deal?.
Yep. No problem. BTW, do you know your coins' history? You do know that ISIS coins might be sitting on your wallet right now, right?
Because, you know, when you buy a house, the state knows who you are, it's not an anonymous transaction for some weed, so prepare yourself for some trouble if even a single satoshi is deemed "tainted"...
It stops being peer-to-peer cash if you deposit it in a CEX. Their platform, their rules. If they discriminate based on inaccurate bullshit, then I'd never use them, especially for such large amount. If you want instant liquidation, then you'll probably have to weigh the tradeoffs. Would he take that deal?
What kind of question is that? Is it fungibility or morals the topic? Why does the history matter? We all receive cash that has been used to buy or sell cocaine, we know it. So what? For once more, coin history a privacy problem, not a fungibility.
Let’s say you want to buy some bitcoins but you can’t buy it from an exchange for some reason and I happen to own some coins on sale. So are you telling me, it wouldn’t make any difference to you if I wanted to sell you some coins with very bad history? (Maybe Isis used my coins to fund their operations or I got my coins from an exchange hack and I am that hacker) I want to sell you my coins directly, without using any third party exchange/mixer. Would you take this deal? (You want to buy coins and I am the only option you have, this is the situation basically)
According to your logic, you should.
If you say “no”, now you see why it matters.
It is exactly the reason why some bad people use mixers too. It is because they can't spend these coins. Nobody wants them.
Some would even exchange it for XMR afterwards, temporarily at least.
Why does the history matter? We all receive cash that has been used to buy or sell cocaine, we know it. So what? For once more, coin history a privacy problem, not a fungibility.
Let’s say you want to buy some bitcoins but you can’t buy it from an exchange for some reason and I happen to own some coins on sale. So are you telling me, it wouldn’t make any difference to you if I wanted to sell you some coins with very bad history? (Maybe Isis used my coins to fund their operations or I got my coins from an exchange hack and I am that hacker) I want to sell you my coins directly, without using any third party exchange/mixer. Would you take this deal?
According to your logic, you should.
If you say “no”, now you see why it matters.
In that case I think it's fair to do some tracing and return them to the owner...
Drugs don't bother me that much TBH, but stealing someone's BTC is another thing.
Another possible scenario I can think of:
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/house-sold-in-portugal-for-3-bitcoin-in-countrys-first-ever-direct-transaction
Let's say that you spent 3 BTC to buy a house...
What happens if the new BTC owner decides to deposit them to a CEX for instant fiat liquidation?
Most people will argue "hodl, don't sell for fiat", but personally I consider it a miracle for a no-coiner to accept BTC as a currency. Hodling/studying 4-year cycles takes another whole level of effort/discipline, so you cannot expect that from everyone.
What if that 3 BTC is deemed to be "tainted"?
Because, you know, when you buy a house, the state knows who you are, it's not an anonymous transaction for some weed, so prepare yourself for some trouble if even a single satoshi is deemed "tainted"...
Let's ask the question again but this time change it a little bit.
This time blackhat wants to buy some gold and I happen to have some gold on sale. Blackhat can't buy it from somewhere else for some reason and I am his only option. Here is the catch, I stole the gold coins (coins don't have serial numbers on them) from a jewelry store. I am a thief but blackhat doesn't know it. To him, I am a legitimate seller.
Would he take that deal?
I'd bet he would.
Why does the history matter? We all receive cash that has been used to buy or sell cocaine, we know it. So what? For once more, coin history a privacy problem, not a fungibility.
Let’s say you want to buy some bitcoins but you can’t buy it from an exchange for some reason and I happen to own some coins on sale. So are you telling me, it wouldn’t make any difference to you if I wanted to sell you some coins with very bad history? (Maybe Isis used my coins to fund their operations or I got my coins from an exchange hack and I am that hacker) I want to sell you my coins directly, without using any third party exchange/mixer. Would you take this deal?
According to your logic, you should.
If you say “no”, now you see why it matters.
In that case I think it's fair to do some tracing and return them to the owner...
Drugs don't bother me that much TBH, but stealing someone's BTC is another thing.
Another possible scenario I can think of:
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/house-sold-in-portugal-for-3-bitcoin-in-countrys-first-ever-direct-transaction
Let's say that you spent 3 BTC to buy a house...
What happens if the new BTC owner decides to deposit them to a CEX for instant fiat liquidation?
Most people will argue "hodl, don't sell for fiat", but personally I consider it a miracle for a no-coiner to accept BTC as a currency. Hodling/studying 4-year cycles takes another whole level of effort/discipline, so you cannot expect that from everyone.
What if that 3 BTC is deemed to be "tainted"?
Because, you know, when you buy a house, the state knows who you are, it's not an anonymous transaction for some weed, so prepare yourself for some trouble if even a single satoshi is deemed "tainted"...
Why does the history matter? We all receive cash that has been used to buy or sell cocaine, we know it. So what? For once more, coin history a privacy problem, not a fungibility.
Let’s say you want to buy some bitcoins but you can’t buy it from an exchange for some reason and I happen to own some coins on sale. So are you telling me, it wouldn’t make any difference to you if I wanted to sell you some coins with very bad history? (Maybe Isis used my coins to fund their operations or I got my coins from an exchange hack and I am that hacker) I want to sell you my coins directly, without using any third party exchange/mixer. Would you take this deal? (You want to buy coins and I am the only option you have, this is the situation basically)
According to your logic, you should.
If you say “no”, now you see why it matters.
It is exactly the reason why some bad people use mixers too. It is because they can't spend these coins. Nobody wants them.
Are you saying btc coming from a certain mixer/casino and binance are the same?
Yep.Many exchanges surely don't treat them the same way.
I don't care what a group of businesses have decided to do. The fact is that decentralized solutions like Bisq, or even more centralized like HodlHodl, eXch and Robosats treat all coins equally. That's enough to rightly claim that every bitcoin is equally valuable. Why is that? These coins have the same everything except for one thing: their history. You can't identify a gold coin's history as you do it with btc.
Why does the history matter? We all receive cash that has been used to buy or sell cocaine, we know it. So what? For once more, coin history a privacy problem, not a fungibility. If you can track its history, how can it be fungible?
Being able to track the history is a privacy problem, not a fungibility problem.Are you saying btc coming from a certain mixer/casino and binance are the same? Many exchanges surely don't treat them the same way. Coinbase for example don't like it if your coins coming from an online casino (so I've heard)
Nobody is using monero, gold/silver coins to purchase something so the gov don't care about them.
Off-topic, but Monero is pretty neat currency, and used quite a lot as medium of exchange lately. (Not as Bitcoin, of course)Not by the general public. No big business accepts monero. I don't know (m)any at least I can say that much. People do p2p deals probably.
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