Topic: Does Bitcoin have real value? (Read 1045 times)

I think the value of bitcoin is whether people really trust bitcoin, some people just like bitcoin, and some people don't know or even know what bitcoin is.
As much as I love Bitcoin, then there is value to me.

Bitcoin does not have a real values which people can stamped at that without this particular volume bitcoin will be crash on the planet Earth but it is not like that because it's not centralised currency and looking at Bitcoin bitcoin is decentralized currency which it cannot be regulated by anyone or it volume in the market, so therefore Bitcoin value is spherical, because it have more specific base from the value and the value is a rotational value.

I agree, except I see you possibly equivocating between value and price with your "Every person at different times value everything at different prices." A version of this that does not suggests equivocation is "Every person at different times are willing to pay different prices for what they think is a value."

The other thing I would add to what you wrote is "The market can be mistaken or defrauded about both price and value." This is why some people used to (and many still do) pay a "price" for the "value" of snake oil.

An independent person will perform his own analysis to determine both whether something is a value (by figuring out the why) and, once it's determined to be a value, whether the price is a fair one. At least for the major purchases in his life and just rely on existing pricing mechanisms (e.g., Amazon, Best Buy) for the little things.

People can be mistaken in holding an internal standard that their self-worth is dependent on the evaluation of others. Like I said, people can be mistaken or defrauded about values.

What about all the things people buy to show off? These things add value to some people's lives because having them and being able to display them makes them feel better. They like to see the envy in other people's eyes, but these things are not vital to our lives. They don't make our lives better in any other way than by allowing us to feel better. Shouldn't these things have price?
IMO everything that has demand should have price.

Oxygen is very valuable for human life, but the price is free.

It's not always the case that something very valuable is very expensive.

Also value depends on the individual and the area they live

Some people value different things differently, and so on.

Basically there's no single price for something. Every person at different times value everything at different prices.

The markets try to get close to that real value with estimates, and people react accordingly.

One thing I've come to learn from the conversations on this thread is to distinguish between value and price. Value is qualitative and price is quantitative.

Something is of value if it enhances the life of the valuer in some way. Water, for example, is of value to human life. We need to consume it at least every 3 days to survive (in hot climate the time period is shorter).

Something should be assigned a price ONLY if it is of value to your life. The price reflects the cost to acquire that thing from someone else and/or the existence of alternatives. So in a place where there are a variety of places to get water, then the price of water will be low. However, in a place where water is scarce, then the price will be high. The fact that the price is high doesn't mean water is more valuable, and the fact that the price is low doesn't mean that value has decline. It just means the costs to acquire it from someone else has change. The value (i.e., needing to consume it every 3 days to survive) remains the same.

Now, people can be mistaken or defrauded into thinking that something is a value when in fact it does not. And so they can be mistaken or defrauded into assigning a price to it when they shouldn't. This is why relying on the fact that others have assigned a price to something as a determinant on whether it is a value or not is not a good methodology to operate from.

The answer of this question is very simple.

If you're able to trade Bitcoin for anything else of certain value, then the value of Bitcoin is exactly that.

There doesn't need to be intrinsic value in the money itself.

For example, today, the bills in Venezuela are worth less than the material it is printed on. That's a waste of resources.

There's no need to have intrinsic value, money has it's own value depending on many external factors.

Bitcoin is great because it's remarkably cheap to store, operate, use, etc, and it's value is designed to increase over decades.

Those who are dumping Bitcoin, are in for short term basis and the fact is since Bitcoin have the intrinsic value and that make it hard for Bitcointo totally lost that value unless it is exchange for the dollar, and even at the moment Bitcoinis still being sold at a high price, so let leave it at that and enjoy the whole process of Bitcoin development and advancement.

Of course not Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. People are very scared for this because bitcoin is being dumped a lot. But I believe bitcoin will reach a better value very soon. Currently bitcoin price is $20458. I believe bitcoin price will not be dumping anymore. But if bitcoin market behaves like this, People will stop believing in cryptocurrencies. But the current price of Bitcoin is 20458.

Never ceases to amaze me how little people know of history.

This reminds me of that harry potter line. When harry "dies" and he is in the train station with dumbledore, he asks if any of this is real or is it in his mind, dumbledore says just because it's in your mind doesn't mean that it's not real. This is about the same thing basically for bitcoins value.

Just because we are the only ones that give it a value and make it 20k+ doesn't mean that it doesn't have a value, we have a "real" value and that's the price, we decide its value. This is how you should approach it, why? Because for the first time in all of human history, "people" have money, not governments, not nations, not armies, literally just people.

It doesn't follow that the fact that the subjective theory is wrong means you have to assume that things are inherently valuable in themselves (the intrinsic theory). It is a false dichotomy to assume that it's either subjective or intrinsic. There is a third choice: the objective. Value based on facts and a valuer.



I applied the objective theory of value to gold. I am unable to apply the objective theory of value to Bitcoin.


It looks like you're conflating subjective value and price. These are two different things. Subjectivity (and objectivity) has to do with methodology. Being subjective means to go by your feelings. Being objective means to go by facts. Value and price are not methodologies, they are information about some thing. Value identifies whether that thing is positive for your life whereas price identifies the difficulty to acquire that thing. I do think that price can be determined objectively based on qualities like scarcity and the existence of alternatives. But a thing should only have a price IF it is a value. If it is not a value, then any price assigned to it is unwarranted because the scarcity of it is irrelevant.

You said the subjective theory of value is wrong because people are sometimes mistaken about value. People might well be mistaken about gold being valuable too, yet it doesn't mean that gold has no value now. For your theory to work correctly, we should assume that some things are inherently valuable in themselves, regardless of whether people value them or not. This claim does not stand up to criticism since, in order to prove its validity, we need the absence and presence of valuing human beings at the same time, which is an absurdity.



The price of water depends on many factors, but the main factor that commands the price is the scarcity or abundance of the thing in question. Water in NYC is more abundant than that in the desert, hence the difference in price. If it had been otherwise - water had been distributed equally among all places, and everyone had unlimited access to it - the price of it would depend on other factors.

Bitcoin' scarcity and its fair distribution are given, unchangeable factors, the price of it fluctuates because people recognize both fundamental factors (objective) and factors that they subjectively value. Some people fail to recognize even fundamental factors, therefore, they will find nothing to subjectivity value either.

Bitcoin is a limitless currency of the Internet that gives people the freedom to financial freedom, whereas fiat currency gives a limit Bitcoin will give that freedom to go. beyond, as a decentralized currency Bitcoin is a utility coin that is used for payment over the internet and that is why Bitcoin is referred to as the currency of the Internet.

By saying "aren't allowed", are you saying that I will use force on people who are mistaken? Because I've made no such claims. People are allowed and are often mistaken. They also pay for the consequences of their mistakes all the time.


It may be true that gold is scarce. It may be true that gold has high stock-to-flow ratio. It may be true that it's hard to destroy. These are not the attributes that makes gold value. Gold is valuable due to its affect on the valuer, specifically, Man. Now, those attributes may make gold expensive (i.e., cause it to have a high price), but price and value are two different things.

Let me give you an example. Water has a specific affect on Man. It is needed for survival. Now, you may think that water is of higher value to a Man who has been walking in the desert without water for several days vs. a Man living in NYC. I disagree. The need of Man for water is the same. What is different is the price. It's a lot easier to get water in NYC than it is to get water in the desert; hence a Man in the desert is willing to pay more for water than a Man in NYC.

It has real value, but the fiat to Bitcoin conversion rate is not a very accurate assessment of it. Tends to get overbought and oversold as the mood varies from euphoria to panic.

You keep repeating the same argument while not explaining why people aren't allowed to be mistaken about objects of their valuation. Take gold as an example of a valuable object that still keeps maintaining its value. Gold is seen as a valuable commodity because it is scarce in supply, has a very high stock-to-flow ratio, is very hard to destroy due to its chemical passiveness, etc. All these properties are a part of its nature and literally, all people on planet Earth recognize its significance, therefore, gold is more than just "subjectively valuable." Can all people on Earth be erroneous about the "undeniable value" of gold? Certainly yes, because once humanity comes up with a cheap way to synthesize gold or extract it from asteroids, or find better alternatives, or whatnot, gold will immediately lose all its value and turn out to be a scam or the greatest failure of all times. Or not? Maybe gold won't be called a scam but simply an obsolete type of money which are meant to be replaced by something better? People will be seeking a replacement, namely perfect money, money that can't be debased, can't be found on asteroids and other planets, can't be synthesized in a laboratory, but that can be sent digitally with a speed of light to another person without having to be dependent on the intermediary. Don't you think such money is worth being valued?

Humans are not 100% rational which is fine. This is what makes us human.
I think this is more of a philosophical concept.

Theranos stock was once usable to “obtain objects, things of value”. That doesn’t mean the stock in the company had value. So the answer to your question is, because people can be mistaken or defrauded. That’s why you want to practice objectivity and look at the supporting facts and not just go with the crowd (aka group subjectivity).