Does this sound like a good idea for hot / warm wallet

Captain-Cryptory

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Quote from: bob123 on August 06, 2020, 12:03:56 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Their major concern is not bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency but the pirate software that may be installed.

I heavily doubt that pirated software is what they are looking for when inspecting electronic devices at the border Grin

You only doubt but I do know for sure and that is the difference. BTW, you can test it by yourself. Come close to officer at border control and say "I have pirate OS installed on my laptop". I guess after that any of your doubts on this matter will disappear for ever.

Pmalek

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I have never seen border agents snoop around in someone's phone looking for Bitcoin. I think the paranoia levels are a bit too high here. Bitcoin is not accepted as money and therefore I don't see why I would declare it. I have traveled from the US to Europe carrying different amounts. Almost $20.000 in cash at one point. Of course, I had the necessary documents to prove everything and no one seemed to care.

I have also traveled with laptops, multiple phones, PC components, etc. I was stopped only once when I purchased an external hard drive in the States. I was take to a lab of some sort. They checked the hard drive under some laser. Didn't ask me a thing, said they were sorry for the wait and wished me a good trip.

Don't worry about your Bitcoin, I am sure the border agents wont either.

bob123

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Their major concern is not bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency but the pirate software that may be installed.

I heavily doubt that pirated software is what they are looking for when inspecting electronic devices at the border Grin

I wouldn't even be surprised if they didn't care at all about a cracked version of windows or whatsoever. That's definitely not what they are looking for.

hulla

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 05, 2020, 02:20:17 PM

Quote from: hulla on August 05, 2020, 02:15:58 PM

However, the idea said by the OP is still better but the mobile wallet icon still needs to be deleted because of surprise occasion.

Deleting or hiding an icon will only fool the most cursory of checks. Any slightly in depth examination of your phone would still find the wallet application, and therefore prompt the search for your wallets themselves.

I agreed with you but deleting or hiding the BTC wallet icon will still limit public involvement and I don't see any reason why an in-depth examination will be performed by the customs if the traveler has no criminal record.

HCP

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This conversation is starting to head down the "what if?" rabbit hole...

I've travelled internationally a number of times whilst carrying hardware wallets... both Ledger and Trezor... never been looked at twice, nor asked what the devices were... including North America who have some of the nosiest border agents! Tongue

Most seem more concerned about drugs, weapons, how long I want to stay and exactly why I'm visiting...

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: bitmover on August 05, 2020, 11:55:33 AM

You can setup a second wallet in your ledger nano (using a mnemonic phrase) and put only what is permitted in the legislation in your main wallet. Keep most of your funds in the hidden ledger nano wallet. Sync your laptop with your main wallet.

Sure, and I have multiple different passphrases I use for multiple different wallets, but the point Captain-Cryptory made was how to travel with no trace of bitcoin and avoid all scrutiny by border agents. A border agent who is specifically looking out for bitcoin hardware wallets is probably well aware of what passphrases are and how they work. If you want to carry bitcoin secretly across a border checkpoint or through airport security, then a hardware wallet is not the best bet.

Quote from: hulla on August 05, 2020, 02:15:58 PM

However, the idea said by the OP is still better but the mobile wallet icon still needs to be deleted because of surprise occasion.

Deleting or hiding an icon will only fool the most cursory of checks. Any slightly in depth examination of your phone would still find the wallet application, and therefore prompt the search for your wallets themselves.

hulla

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 05, 2020, 10:18:14 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I would travel with Ledger and laptop with no trace of bitcoins on it thus eliminating all unnecessary questions (if any) at the border checkpoints.

If hiding the fact that you are traveling with bitcoin is your goal, then using a hardware wallet is a poor choice. The common ones (Ledger, Trezor, Coldcard, etc.) are instantly recognizable to someone who is looking for them, and there is literally no other reason you would be carrying one if not to carry around cryptocurrency.

I don't support the idea of traveling with hardware wallet because it always raise something suspicious and most of the customs official seems to be looking for something that looks like a crypto wallet. However, the idea said by the OP is still better but the mobile wallet icon still needs to be deleted because of surprise occasion.

Quote from: LoyceV on August 04, 2020, 04:09:35 AM

Have you considered a BIP38 encrypted paper wallet? I carry one in my wallet (created offline using bitaddress.org). I've never used it (I also hold a small amount in Mycelium), but if I ever find a shop that accepts Bitcoin, I'm ready for it.
This topic convinced me I don't have to worry about someone easily brute-forcing BIP38: I'm BIP38 curious, please help me out!.

Of course I keep a backup of the paper wallet at home

Speaking of brute-forcing BIP38 which was also the reason why I never used BIP38 or bitaddress, I went through the link you provided but I don't understand how the third wallet was generated.

bitmover

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Quote from: DaveF on August 04, 2020, 04:26:54 PM

So I now have $8125 in BTC, $2200 in ETH and $275 in LTC. I now have $10,600.
If I do not declare it did I violate the law?

And hell no I am not traveling with that much crypto; it's more of a what if.

-Dave

This is a gray area.

Technically, none of your bitcoins are in your mobile wallet. Bitcoin is not really stored in your mobile phone, which carries only the private keys.

Your bitcoins are everyone. They are in every bitcoin node around the world.

But authorities won't understand that.
Just move the 600-700 USD to some other wallet not in your mobile phone.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 05, 2020, 10:18:14 AM

If you wanted to hide a wallet to carry it across a border without raising suspicion, I would either disguise a seed phrase in among some hand written notes which look like the minutes to a meeting, notes from a lecture, or something similar, or encrypt a seed phrase and hide it among some data I could plausibly claim was for something else.

There is something else you could do.
You can setup a second wallet in your ledger nano (using a mnemonic phrase) and put only what is permitted in the legislation in your main wallet. Keep most of your funds in the hidden ledger nano wallet. Sync your laptop with your main wallet.

If someone asks, you can show the main wallet balance in your laptop.

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@busyjordy/ledger-nano-s-secret-secondary-wallet-option

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I would travel with Ledger and laptop with no trace of bitcoins on it thus eliminating all unnecessary questions (if any) at the border checkpoints.

If hiding the fact that you are traveling with bitcoin is your goal, then using a hardware wallet is a poor choice. The common ones (Ledger, Trezor, Coldcard, etc.) are instantly recognizable to someone who is looking for them, and there is literally no other reason you would be carrying one if not to carry around cryptocurrency.

If you wanted to hide a wallet to carry it across a border without raising suspicion, I would either disguise a seed phrase in among some hand written notes which look like the minutes to a meeting, notes from a lecture, or something similar, or encrypt a seed phrase and hide it among some data I could plausibly claim was for something else.

pooya87

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Quote from: DaveF on August 04, 2020, 09:04:17 AM

Yes, but having a litecoin wallet, a ether wallet, etc just gets to be a pain. Using the theory of "the phone is worth more then the coins in the wallet" it's really not that big a deal for *me* although security is a concern for those amounts it's not a big one. Others can and do feel differently.

doesn't have to be like that. you can get away with only two wallets instead of one.
a bitcoin wallet using a software that is much more trustworthy and open source than the multicoin wallets (eg. Electrum for Android) and another wallet for multiple coins that is less trusted and sometimes closed source since you have no other option.
that way you still protect your bitcoins while having another shady wallet that holds your altcoins. and if you lose them to the wallet it will only be the altcoins.

HCP

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As far as I'm aware, it has to be actual physical currency on your person/in your belongings when you're crossing borders...

The coins you have are effectively, "in a bank account" (you are being your own bank after all Wink

)... so, as far as I'm concerned, you don't have to declare it any more than you would holding a debit/credit card that had access to a bank account holding $100,000.00... or a laptop that you could use to access your internet banking etc.

DaveF

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Quote from: bitmover on August 04, 2020, 09:11:17 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

If you plan traveling to another country, take note that some border checkpoint require you to surrender your electronic device.

It is important to respect the legislation which usually is to carry at most 10.000 USD.

Quote

You might be surprised to learn that there is no limit on how much cash you can cross the border with. However, if you travel with more than $10,000 USD then you must declare it. You can find the official statement on this at the US Customs and Border Protection website.

If you bring more than $10,000 USD you have to notify customs and fill out a Report of International Transportation of Currency and Monetary Instruments (FinCEN 105).

It’s very important to know that this means any form of cash that equals $10,000 USD. Any combination of “cash” items (more on this later) and foreign currencies counts towards your total amount

https://clearitusa.com/u-s-customs-cash-limit/

I think Bitcoin counts as a foreign currency Wink

So, I would avoid carrying more than 1 BTC on my phone for this reason when travelling abroad.
Additionally, for security reasons I wouldn't carry more than 1k-2k usd under normal circumstances (unless if I would be fleeing away from war or pandemic or whatever lol)

You know that does bring up an interesting thought.
I leave on Monday with .75 BTC 5 ETH and 10 LTC
BTC is worth $10K so $7500
ETH is worth $300 so $1500
LTC is worth $45 so $450
Totals $9450.

I spend .1 BTC, 1 ETH and 5 LTC
BUT BTC goes to $12500 ETH goes to $550 and LTC goes to $55 while I am away for 2 weeks.

So I now have $8125 in BTC, $2200 in ETH and $275 in LTC. I now have $10,600.
If I do not declare it did I violate the law?

And hell no I am not traveling with that much crypto; it's more of a what if.

-Dave

o_e_l_e_o

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My only concern using your set up would be that for a significant period of time, two out of the three devices (your phone and your laptop) will be vulnerable to the same physical attacks. From when you leave your house, in the taxi/bus/train/tram/whatever, through the airport, out the airport, to the hotel, etc. Also, especially since you say business travel, if you are taking your laptop with you to meetings or appointments, to do work on in between times, etc. Provided the wallets are encrypted then you don't have to worry about them being emptied, but you potentially need to worry about your recovery if you've lost or had stolen 2 out of the 3 cosigners.

I would be tempted to create a 2-of-2 wallet between my laptop and my phone, and keep both parts backed up on my encrypted airgapped computer at home.

bitmover

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bitcoindata.science

Quote from: ?? on ??

If you plan traveling to another country, take note that some border checkpoint require you to surrender your electronic device.

It is important to respect the legislation which usually is to carry at most 10.000 USD.

Quote

You might be surprised to learn that there is no limit on how much cash you can cross the border with. However, if you travel with more than $10,000 USD then you must declare it. You can find the official statement on this at the US Customs and Border Protection website.

If you bring more than $10,000 USD you have to notify customs and fill out a Report of International Transportation of Currency and Monetary Instruments (FinCEN 105).

It’s very important to know that this means any form of cash that equals $10,000 USD. Any combination of “cash” items (more on this later) and foreign currencies counts towards your total amount

https://clearitusa.com/u-s-customs-cash-limit/

I think Bitcoin counts as a foreign currency Wink

So, I would avoid carrying more than 1 BTC on my phone for this reason when travelling abroad.
Additionally, for security reasons I wouldn't carry more than 1k-2k usd under normal circumstances (unless if I would be fleeing away from war or pandemic or whatever lol)

DaveF

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Quote from: pooya87 on August 04, 2020, 12:29:53 AM

the 2 of 3 multisig wallet seems like a good setup to me, just want to remind you to make physical (eg. paper) backups of the keys used by each of them and store them somewhere safe. you'll never know what disasters can happen in the future.

but i particularly dislike the multicoin wallets for bitcoin. they should never be used in my opinion, this type of wallets are usually closed source and/or very weak in sense of security. they are also not popular so they aren't really reviewed by any experts the way actual bitcoin wallets (eg. Electrum) are reviewed.

Yes, but having a litecoin wallet, a ether wallet, etc just gets to be a pain. Using the theory of "the phone is worth more then the coins in the wallet" it's really not that big a deal for *me* although security is a concern for those amounts it's not a big one. Others can and do feel differently.

Quote from: LoyceV on August 04, 2020, 04:09:35 AM

Have you considered a BIP38 encrypted paper wallet? I carry one in my wallet (created offline using bitaddress.org). I've never used it (I also hold a small amount in Mycelium), but if I ever find a shop that accepts Bitcoin, I'm ready for it.
This topic convinced me I don't have to worry about someone easily brute-forcing BIP38: I'm BIP38 curious, please help me out!.

Of course I keep a backup of the paper wallet at home

I used to (printed on revlar) and some other things. Was just trying to streamline stuff a bit, since I carry the phone & laptop anyway.

Quote from: ?? on ??

If you plan traveling to another country, take note that some border checkpoint require you to surrender your electronic device.

The setup itself is fine (balanced between security and convenience), but make sure your smartphone doesn't use weak security (e.g. biometric to unlock your smartphone)

Yeah, not leaving the country for a while. But I think business travel is going to pick up a bit for me soon.
You can unlock the phone with a fingerprint, BUT you need a pin & password to send from the wallet.

-Dave

LoyceV

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Have you considered a BIP38 encrypted paper wallet? I carry one in my wallet (created offline using bitaddress.org). I've never used it (I also hold a small amount in Mycelium), but if I ever find a shop that accepts Bitcoin, I'm ready for it.
This topic convinced me I don't have to worry about someone easily brute-forcing BIP38: I'm BIP38 curious, please help me out!.

Of course I keep a backup of the paper wallet at home

pooya87

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the 2 of 3 multisig wallet seems like a good setup to me, just want to remind you to make physical (eg. paper) backups of the keys used by each of them and store them somewhere safe. you'll never know what disasters can happen in the future.

but i particularly dislike the multicoin wallets for bitcoin. they should never be used in my opinion, this type of wallets are usually closed source and/or very weak in sense of security. they are also not popular so they aren't really reviewed by any experts the way actual bitcoin wallets (eg. Electrum) are reviewed.

DaveF

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Yeah, I just wanted to make sure I was not missing anything.
I used to have this stupid complicated way of taking crypto with me while travelling.
And I was just thinking that there had to be a simple solution.
Either way we are not talking life altering amounts, just more then I want sitting in a vulnerable environment all at once.

-Dave

HCP

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Quote from: DaveF on August 03, 2020, 05:17:10 PM

Seems really simple, like to the point that I am missing something.

It's a hot/warm wallet setup... so it shouldn't be complicated! Tongue

Seems like you're essentially prioritising convenience rather than security, so the simple wallet app on phone for quick access funds and the 2-of-3 multsig setup for slightly more secure access seems like a perfectly acceptable solution.

sheenshane

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Yeah, sounds good and this is what I did with my custodial wallet which is I have on my laptop and in my phone.

But sometimes I'm afraid of getting hack if someday I will be lost my phone and someone know how to recover my wallet through Gmail or even phone number. That's why I didn't store too much amount on the custodial wallet and most likely in my cold wallet.

It seems good but I advise not to store big amount of Bitcoin with your hot wallet. If you're not on travel, transfer it to your cold wallet. And don't leave your wallet details and information in your phone and laptop. Just like password and seed phrase.

Topic: Does this sound like a good idea for hot / warm wallet (Read 257 times)