Topic: [Edited]How To Build A Better GB?[Old ver.]>What Miner Do You Want For This GB? (Read 2867 times)

Just an update: I am currently working on documentation to provide some details to you (keeping in mind 'KISS.')

As Vanderi indicated, KnCMiner has announced there Next Gen Miner (20nm asic.) Details are sketchy atm, I think it would be a good idea to consider a GB for these units. Does anyone have more information other than what is(n't) on the KnCMiner website?

OK, so here is the plan so far.

I have asked Bicknellski for some details (particularly about cost) and he provided me with even more information than I asked for (Thanks Bicknellski!) Bicknellski also had some very useful suggestions.

Here is a portion of his response:


He added:


I think that going with Bicknellski's advisement is the direction that I would like to see this go. So here is a call for qualified individuals to join SWMC (HIVE .

The best option for SWMC is to serve a dual function. If there is support amongst you guys, I suggest we: 1. Fabricate Wasp and Hive units to power SWMC's very own mining farm. 2. Provide a low cost/at cost fabrication service for SWMC partners (and offer low cost hosting.)

It seems logical that #2 is the best way atm to hedge against corporate dominance over the bitcoin network (e.i. keep cost as low as possible for the average individual.)

As I have learned (the painful way), there is only so much that I can do as a single individual. There is allot of work that needs to be done and, although I could do any particular task myself, I cannot do all the tasks myself (at least not in any realistic time frame.) So this is a call for participation to join SWMC by offering your talents to the HIVE.

I do not expect anyone to offer their services for free, so we will also have to all agree on a way to provide future compensation to current participants.

I will start a ZOHO project (
I will continue to add additional details as I work through the options available and as I gain greater insight into the costs and needed tasks.

We will also need to raise capital to cover some of the initial costs. SWMC will not except donations, but if you would like to help support this GB project you can make a contribution in several ways; Make a pledge (e.i. exspress that you are willing to cover certain cost and pay them directly,) Make a contribution by starting an escrow account to fund specific tasks for the project, Make a contribution to the address in my sig.

All of these methods will entitle the contributor to a stake in the SWMC mining farm or credit towards fabricated hardware and perhaps additional benefits.

I want this to be OUR porject, not just my project. So, if you have anything to add or wish to suggest changes or certain additional features,... PLEASE... DO SO!

Thanks,
James

**Prototypes for the Wasp Project are expected in December.

Thanks Vanderi, like I said, I knew I liked you for some reason. 

I have PMd you with my (potentially, they're people after all) resources - cutting edge asic engineering, IT-tech at officer level,
early btc investors. Even a vagabond, ready to travel.

Now it's up to you to inspire:)

I cannot believe SWMC has spammed me with PM answers on my stick-sharp questions, until I was silent. Just to show that he very much has the small peeps in mind.

He's the real McCoy.

Just to state my current stand to SWMC - you have my axe.

*edit KnC just announced their 20nm tech nextgen on their site incase you missed it

Thanks for the offer! Let me know what skills or resources you can bring to this project and I'll see what you might be able to help with.

Sound like FUN!) please keep us post it:) let me know how I can help:?)

Thanks DZ,

I am very happy that You have allowed me to join your group. I believe that we have common goals and I see great potential in our partnership.

I do. Bicknellski and the Wasp Team are "good people" IMHO. We've talked over Skype about various projects and about potential future collaborations.

==

Also, OT, but just to clarify: I had absolutely no hand in our co-op having exclusivity to BA Group Buys. I was notified of this myself and neither sought nor asked for this exclusivity.

I pride myself on my hardware neutrality, having doing arbitrage on electronics since the days of pre-order Nintendo Wiis and when people used to actually pay to ship giant CRTs weighing 50+ lbs. We've sold GB shares from 4 different manufacturers so far, and look forward to working with other manufacturers in the future.

One more thing to keep in mind: Bitcoin miners themselves are a result of the combination of East and West. The people who make our miners come from an entirely different culture from ours, and social mores are different then they are in the West.

I think that no insult was intended to anyone, simply cold hard business sense such as: based on past experience from bad GBCs that ran away w/ funds, we may save x percentage of operating expenses and reduce our risk if we don't have to deal with GBs ourselves.

I don't know if this is the case but I'm just trying to give you the background conditions of the massive societal and cultural differences between egalitarian and non-egalitarian cultures.

We try to run our co-op in as open and transparent a manner as possible. I instituted a direct representative democracy in our miner's co-op as soon as I started it. I believe it's made all the difference in the world and our co-op members can look at it proudly knowing that their input is taken seriously and real changes are made based upon their input and passion. My opinion from this democratic experiment is to heed the feedback you get from your customers and be willing to be adaptive and even keeled.

Encouraging new GBCs is something I've done since I've been here. I also wanted offload some work from John K., hence my GBC and/or miner host specific vetting which I offer for free, in the hope of doing future business with these people in the future.

==

Also: I've offered James my editing skills if he so chooses to utilize them for a GB re-launch. I apologize that we're too busy right now to juggle a 3rd GB with the free tools we have available at the moment. I've given him a number of suggestions which I hope are worthwhile

I am considering whether to base the first GB on The Wasp project. Do you support for this?

On the contrary, I want this to be done with average individuals. I want DECENTRALIZATION. To join with a single, or small group of entities would be just the opposite of what I am working for. I want 'We the People' to own the factory and therefor we will own [our own] the future. So the foul stench you sensed in the air was not from me.

Yeah,

you're looking for a rich funder. Preferably with a factory.
I smelled that already when I said you're maybe looking for some answers which you don't want to say out loud.

I'm out.

Thanks bobsag3,

Although, in order to stay ahead of the curve, I think we are trending towards a matter of hours to day's on execution for miningware purchases. There are very deep pockets out there who can easily afford to purchase the vast majority of available miningware. Those deep pockets have leverage on multiple fronts so their pockets will only get deeper. How will the current GB methods be able to be effective when the only way to afford to mine bitcoin (e.i. not operate at a lose) is to have the ability to purchase in high volume with, say, $100,000, $250,000, $500,000 or more? It is possible that the long term trend will be towards manufacturing proprietary hardware, chips and all. It may even come to the point that you have to produce new chip architecture on a monthly (weekly?) bases just to remain competitive. How do you organize a group buy for $100,000,000 to purchase an entire high-tech manufacturing facility? This is a threat to the decentralized nature of bitcoin.

On a positive note, the whole push towards faster, cheaper miningware combined with the profit motivation (I predict) is going too lead to the most astounding and rapid advancements in human technology in the entire history of man. (Ahha... the wonders of bitcoin!) [As a side note, I have conceived of a rather novel approach towards a new kind of processing architecture of which one of my physics professors agreed was revolutionary in concept and is plausible in practice. ]

I am really enjoying this discourse, lets keep it going!

Thanks,
James

I will definatly agree with #1. People outside of BTC, and even some of those in the know, dont understand the urgency and speed in witch these things are necessarily put together. A month in a normal business could need to be compressed and executed in a week within BTC.

@Vanderi: I think that you are beginning to grasp the difficulty of what I (believe is necessary) trying to accomplish. The most difficult aspects are:

1. Conveying the urgency of the need.

2. Gaining acceptance as a solution provider to a problem that is only being hinted at currently [most aren't presently convinced of or recognize the need (or the urgency).]

Present this in a consumer friendly package, why not as discussed earlier on in the thread.
Give dates. Links to hardware. Spreadsheet calcs. PRICES. And above all exactly what people get for their btc, they want to know this. You can't in an ambivalent way just say "we need monies but haow?".
You are the one with the plan. A credible, simple plan.


The timing is bad as we are between generations of "miningware". But you are going to need to get leverage by liquid funds before proceeding to the next stage and next. After that, get help from thomas, bob, or, uh, send the bitterdog to attack BA, to challenge them. I think the beforementioned people will appreciate what else you wrote in that tl;dr post of yours.

You will need to compose along the way.
Ironically, what comes to my mind is a pre-order of a GB.

Jesus Christ, what has the btc world come to.

Just atleast prepare what you can do - sites, sheets, payment mechanisms, social networking. Keep your target in focus all the time. A perpetual group buy and  "managing profit potentials".

I'm not sure at all you will be able to pull this off. We're talking a GBC 2.0, after all.

Surprise us.

Vanderi suggested that a Dream Group Buy would be with a GBC that had many connections to hardware suppliers. I am requesting information from anyone who is or has connections with miningware suppliers/manufacturers as well as those who would like to facilitate such arrangments. Please send me a PM with your info.

Thanks,
James

I love to challenge absurdity, but I am not in a strong enough position to cause BA to notice or care. Otherwise I would consider it.

Credit were credit is due. You are a very astute individual (I knew I liked you for some reason. )

Now to explain, I know what I want to say (or rather offer) and I have attempted too. My purpose is to understand better how to best present this idea as well as to gauge its support. Perhaps the point of the 'perpetual group buy' was lost in the heavy thatch of the rest of my persistent diatribe.

My reasoning behind this is that my assessment of the future of bitcoin mining is a rather bleak one for the small time miner (actually, for any sized 'mining farm' besides a handful of 'mega mining farms.') The necessity of constantly increasing ones hash rate to continue profiting from bitcoin mining has also resulted in the necessity for larger lump sums of cash to purchase the mining equipment, even though the cost per hash rate continues to decline.

The push for the 'holy grail' of miners has resulted in faster and more efficient 'miningware' (<< new term, lets adopt it  ) but most of this equipment is too costly for the majority of individuals (at least in the sense of keeping up with the ∆difficulty level) hence the need for the group buy. I believe that the next two or three waves of new miningware will push the cost of said equipment up so high as to be out of range of even today's GBs ability to raise funds to purchase them.

The group buy was formed to solve the problem of the high cost of new mining equipment when the cost became prohibitive for the majority, but the current GB model is becoming less viable and will become just as obsolete as the model of individuals building GPU and FPGA clusters at home. What we need now is something akin to pooled mining. Just as we rely on the pool managers to keep everything going smoothly, we need to begin relying on miningware purchaser/operators to manage our profit potentials. Doing this will lead to a more efficient model for buying miningware and increasing bitcoin mining profits.

We must, and I mean MUST, come to terms with this new paradigm and create such a system. I know many are working on different aspects of this concept but it is time to pull these diverse efforts together into one cohesive and more effective mechanism (although, we need to continue to view this an open-source like effort.)

This is a large part of why I began this venture. I am a 'true believer' of what bitcoin stands for (or at least what it has come to represent.) Because bitcoin (as an icon) means a great deal to me, I have been troubled by the direction that the bitcoin dynamic has been taking. The decentralized nature of bitcoin is at odds with the trend towards centralized mining. I perceive a danger in this trend as it makes large mining farms vulnerable to the trappings of large corporations (greed, political pressures, usurpation and a host of other nasty consequences.) The best way to prevent these negative predictions is to inspire a greater community effort, based on cooperation for mutual return, to steer this behemoth back onto its intended course. Essentially...

We, As Members (Dare I Say The Progenitors) Of The Bitcoin Community, Must Show Care And Concern For One Another And Realize That Doing So Will Benefit Us As Individuals Just As It Benefits The Group.

Otherwise...   we may endure a kind of bitcoin 'dark age' were the promise of bitcoin has been usurped by the self interest that naturally forms from large industry....

I think that I have reached the limit of my allowed time on the soapbox... at least for now....  

As stated in regards to Vanderi, I also will give credit were credit is due in regards to thoma_s, you indeed did offer advice (of which I am much appreciative.) And I don't really mind so much about the discourse between thoma_s, [bobsag3] and bitterdog (who also deserves credit for his stance in regards to fairness,) so long as the point of the OP is not a casualty of war.  

@StefanThePro Looking forward to your contribution!

I have noticed the viewed count is growing but there is a limited exchange of ideas, if your reading this and think that you have a good idea, please contribute to the discussion,

Thanks!
James