Electrum Features - Less is More - page 2.

newbie

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Quote from: Pmalek on April 15, 2022, 02:54:51 AM

If you are a hodler like you said in your first post, but you saw the arbitrary messages that malicious server operators posted in the past, you are using Electrum as a hot wallet and that's not the recommended way. The positive thing is that you didn't fall victim to the phishing messages. If you used Electrum as a cold wallet, you wouldn't have to worry about server messages, LN, invoices, etc. You can't drown if there is no water and if you are in a desert. Wink

I never said I have only one wallet/setup/electrum/device. My hodling wallet and stacking wallet are on different devices and have a different setup.
You can (if you want that) even run different setups/electrums on the same device by combining the installed, stand alone and portable versions of electrum.

Quote from: Pmalek on April 15, 2022, 02:54:51 AM

Sorry, I don't see it. If you don't want to use some of the features, don't do it. It really is that easy.

Electrum wasn't developed to fit just one type of person. I have never used an Invoice on Electrum. But I have also never clicked on it by mistake or just for the fun of it. I have never used the console tab either (can be switched on/off from the settings), but I have never accidently opened it when trying to generate an address. Just use the stuff you need and forget about those you don't.

Hiding features doesn't make them go away. Hiding possible vulnerabilities doesn't make them go away...

Greets.

Pmalek

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Quote from: thefirstnamelessdude on April 12, 2022, 04:27:09 AM

Electrum can be used as a hot/cold and watch only wallet, so I don't see any problems there. It is my number one BTC (SPV) wallet.

If you are a hodler like you said in your first post, but you saw the arbitrary messages that malicious server operators posted in the past, you are using Electrum as a hot wallet and that's not the recommended way. The positive thing is that you didn't fall victim to the phishing messages. If you used Electrum as a cold wallet, you wouldn't have to worry about server messages, LN, invoices, etc. You can't drown if there is no water and if you are in a desert. Wink

Quote from: thefirstnamelessdude on April 12, 2022, 04:27:09 AM

...although I still think unused features should be removed entirely (maybe available as downloadable extra modules).

Sorry, I don't see it. If you don't want to use some of the features, don't do it. It really is that easy.

Electrum wasn't developed to fit just one type of person. I have never used an Invoice on Electrum. But I have also never clicked on it by mistake or just for the fun of it. I have never used the console tab either (can be switched on/off from the settings), but I have never accidently opened it when trying to generate an address. Just use the stuff you need and forget about those you don't.

thefirstnamelessdude

newbie

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 12, 2022, 05:50:52 AM

Quote from: thefirstnamelessdude on April 12, 2022, 04:27:09 AM

This could indeed be the one size fits all, although I still think unused features should be removed entirely (maybe available as downloadable extra modules).

But features unused by you are not unused by everybody.
...

But features used by you are not used by everybody.
We need figures to make sense. This was the purpose of this topic but nobody says if they actually using invoices or lightning other than for testing...

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 12, 2022, 05:50:52 AM

Quote from: thefirstnamelessdude on April 12, 2022, 04:27:09 AM

Hiding isn't enough in my opinion, see above.

If your concern is the attack vector presented by additional features, then your risk model is probably all messed up.
...

I don't think my risk model is messed up as it's the only thing I don't have under my own control which I always consider the biggest risk.
Servers sending malicious messages (in the past) illustrates this perfectly. The software didn't stop anything, my own caution saved me.

Greets.

pooya87

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Quote from: dkbit98 on April 12, 2022, 06:48:29 AM

Quote from: thefirstnamelessdude on April 11, 2022, 03:37:24 PM

What are your opinions? Would you prefer a slimmed down version (like the older 2.x and 3.x versions) or do you like it more the way it is now?

Electrum wallet is open source, so if you don't like something you can always fork it and remove what you don't want to use.
In theory this could be done but the question is who is going to maintain this release and fix all the bugs that could always come up in future.
You would need to be a developer or to hire someone to do this for you, but I think this is just a waste of time and money.
Lightning Network is getting more popular every day and more exchanges and services are adding support, so I think it would be wise to keep LN in Electrum.

This shouldn't be that complicated though because as I said above this could be seen as a UI issue so you don't have to remove the feature, you just have to hid it in the UI so that the average user doesn't have to deal with the confusion those "advanced" options may cause.
You don't necessarily need to fork the project either, you could ask the devs to start working on hiding the features under advanced features for example.

dkbit98

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Quote from: thefirstnamelessdude on April 11, 2022, 03:37:24 PM

What are your opinions? Would you prefer a slimmed down version (like the older 2.x and 3.x versions) or do you like it more the way it is now?

Electrum wallet is open source, so if you don't like something you can always fork it and remove what you don't want to use.
In theory this could be done but the question is who is going to maintain this release and fix all the bugs that could always come up in future.
You would need to be a developer or to hire someone to do this for you, but I think this is just a waste of time and money.
Lightning Network is getting more popular every day and more exchanges and services are adding support, so I think it would be wise to keep LN in Electrum.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: thefirstnamelessdude on April 12, 2022, 04:27:09 AM

This could indeed be the one size fits all, although I still think unused features should be removed entirely (maybe available as downloadable extra modules).

But features unused by you are not unused by everybody. It is far easier from both a development point of view and an end user point of view to simply hide the features you don't want to use than have to install multiple additional add-ons for the feature you do want to use.

Quote from: thefirstnamelessdude on April 12, 2022, 04:27:09 AM

Hiding isn't enough in my opinion, see above.

If your concern is the attack vector presented by additional features, then your risk model is probably all messed up.
If you are using Electrum as a hot wallet, then it is incredibly unlikely your coins will be stolen by some bug in how invoices are generated, but rather from something like clipboard malware or malware stealing your wallet file.
If you are using Electrum as a cold wallet, then it is even more incredibly unlikely your coins will be stolen by some bug in how invoices are generated, but rather from you accidentally connecting your cold wallet to the internet or from a physical attack on your cold storage.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: thefirstnamelessdude on April 12, 2022, 04:27:09 AM

This could indeed be the one size fits all, although I still think unused features should be removed entirely (maybe available as downloadable extra modules).

Removing the features completely would.. what, make the exe smaller? I don't see a real benefit there.
On the other hand, although some may be experienced bitcoiners, may have issues installing and verifying extra modules. Or the installer will need to be more complicated.
Moving the code out, making everything "pluginable" would also mean hella lot of work.
If you also keep in mind that Electrum works from same code on multiple different operating systems, you'd see that splitting electrum would be counterproductive (much more effort and no actual benefits).

Even asking for UI changes means "making requests" for an actually free program. So the developers may or may not consider it.
However, this is discussion. Electrum devs may not pay attention to what we write here. If this kind of requests are to be made, one should write them into Electrum git: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/issues

thefirstnamelessdude

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Quote from: Bitcoin_Arena on April 11, 2022, 06:48:04 PM

What are you looking for from a software wallet every day if you are a hodler?
...

Electrum can be used as a hot/cold and watch only wallet, so I don't see any problems there. It is my number one BTC (SPV) wallet.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on April 12, 2022, 01:57:55 AM

...
Electrum could use some predefined modes. No changes in functionality at all, just (UI/visibility) settings. (I'd go for at least 3 levels though).
A newbie mode should have only the super basic tabs and buttons, a medium one would have more.. and the advanced users... can enable all they want in the (advanced) settings.
It could be a bit of work in the UI and finetuning the modes. And it clearly means a lot more settings to be made up, but the result may worth it.

This could indeed be the one size fits all, although I still think unused features should be removed entirely (maybe available as downloadable extra modules).

Quote from: LoyceV on April 12, 2022, 03:07:47 AM

If you don't use features, just hide them: Electrum > View > Hide Channels.
...
If you really want to slim it down: it's open source

Hiding isn't enough in my opinion, see above.
Yeah, I was hoping someone else would do that as I'm not smart enough to fork the project...

Greets.

LoyceV

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If you don't use features, just hide them: Electrum > View > Hide Channels.
As for the malware attack: I'd say you're keeping too much money in a hot wallet if you worry about that. Besides, removing features from Electrum won't change the risk caused by other software you have on your system already.

If you really want to slim it down: it's open source

hosseinimr93

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Advaned features such as lightening, coin control and console have been located in separate tabs and I don't think they make any confusion for newbies. By default, these tabs are not visible and any user who enables them should have some information about them.

In my opinion, the only thing which may need to change is how invoices work.
The expiry time makes many newbies think that addresses expire and they have to make the transaction before that time. In my opinion, it would be better if electrum only generated an address once a user clicks on "New address" button and there was another button for creating requests.

NeuroticFish

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I somehow agree with OP. Important: somehow.
Electrum is the swiss knife of Bitcoin light wallets. It is recommended by basically everybody. But it can be a pain for the newbies; I remember it was confusing even for some older users with the changes introduced in 4.0.

Electrum could use some predefined modes. No changes in functionality at all, just (UI/visibility) settings. (I'd go for at least 3 levels though).
A newbie mode should have only the super basic tabs and buttons, a medium one would have more.. and the advanced users... can enable all they want in the (advanced) settings.
It could be a bit of work in the UI and finetuning the modes. And it clearly means a lot more settings to be made up, but the result may worth it.

pooya87

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I disagree. I think it is good to have many features in a software, some of which are very advanced. But that doesn't mean that software has to become hard to use for regular beginners. Those advanced features could be hidden under an advanced option where the user has to enable them or access them manually after seeing a warning that they are entering "advanced mode". Like the console option that Electrum has.

For example the UI could change to have a button under Tools saying "enable advanced mode" and then make all those features appear.

Bitcoin_Arena

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What are you looking for from a software wallet every day if you are a hodler?
Shouldn't you be having your Bitcoins stashed away in a well-kept hardware wallet or some offline address you generated.

And why do the other features bug you so much if you are rarely going to see or even use them? Wink

BitMaxz

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Why don't you just ignore the lightning network?

Take note of older versions lower than 3.3.4 it's vulnerable to any phishing attacks. So we don't prefer to use a lower version than using up to date version of Electrum.

Hackers are developing from time to time so it is advisable to use the latest version than using the lower version of Electrum. It's not a problem having a lightning network in your wallet it won't run if you didn't open a channel.
I'm actually not using them but I already have experienced opening a channel and using their lightning network. The advantage is you can get fewer transaction fees than the mainnet and the transaction is almost instant.

If you want to use Electrum for cold storage then just ignore the whole lightning feature it won't be a problem having an offline wallet with the latest Electrum wallet.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: thefirstnamelessdude on April 11, 2022, 03:37:24 PM

I think Electrum has too many features for the average user and certainly for the hodler. I'm mainly a hodler and have no real use for invoices and the lightning parts in the wallet.

The lightning part should be a separate wallet, if you ask me.

You do not have to use lightning network on Electrum. If you are a holder, you can create an electrum cold storage or going for M-of-N multisig wallet on Electrum, you have no issue with the lightning network so far you do not use it. You also do not have to make frequent transactions as you are a holder, you are in full control of your coin.

thefirstnamelessdude

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Just my opinion but I like to know how other Electrum users think of it.

I think Electrum has too many features for the average user and certainly for the hodler. I'm mainly a hodler and have no real use for invoices and the lightning parts in the wallet. Invoices is more for people who do many transactions or even for entrepreneurs who need the invoice part. Many people even get confused about it. The lightning part should be a separate wallet, if you ask me.

Something I remember considering safety is "the less features software has, the less the attack vector is for malware". For a hodler this is very important. For me an Electrum version with send and receive options including setting automatic and manual fees would be enough. Coin control is also very nice. That's about all I need.

What are your opinions? Would you prefer a slimmed down version (like the older 2.x and 3.x versions) or do you like it more the way it is now?

Greets.

Topic: Electrum Features - Less is More - page 2. (Read 511 times)