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Topic: Enhanced privacy with Wasabi & Samourai wallets - page 2. (Read 969 times)

copper member
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With the enchanced privacy of Wasabi using coin join feature, I have read some topic in this forum that some parts of addresses used in coinjoin may used with some criminals, that's why coinjoin is illegal in some countries. (I don't know if this is true, I just read those before)

Here is the topic before about that.
some exchanges have terms (or at least suspected policies) against mixers. but i've never seen any terms specifically against coinjoins, and i've never heard of anyone getting their account closed over it.
Aantonop said in one recent video that coinjoin is even considered "illegal" in some countries. I wasn't able to find something backing this up in a quick search.

It would be stupid for an exchange to block CJ, for multiple reasons (too long to explain but an example, it's like if the banks refuse deposits in cash because the banknotes are tainted with cocaine) But if they do, it's not difficult to bypass it, just need to add a few "hops"
Aantopnop was wrong by saying CJ is illegal, simply because it's not a centralized service but rather a mixing protocol (or a transaction model). But he corrected himself later about this

The video concerned is this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soeFxWkM5qI
Quote
CORRECTION: At 1:57 I say that the European Union has deemed CoinJoin to be illegal. This is completely false. While various centralized / custodial mixing services have been shut down (https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/...), there are a few CoinJoin wallets which are not custodial and there has not been any European Union legislation banning CoinJoin.
legendary
Activity: 2576
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You may want to include the following reference:

nopara73 - One of the creator of Wasabi wallet. He is a regular on our forum.

https://medium.com/@nopara73
https://twitter.com/nopara73?lang=en

Wasabi Wallet 1.0 Is Released - Discussion thread about Wasabi wallet (self-moderated).
legendary
Activity: 2338
Merit: 1354
With the enchanced privacy of Wasabi using coin join feature, I have read some topic in this forum that some parts of addresses used in coinjoin may used with some criminals, that's why coinjoin is illegal in some countries. (I don't know if this is true, I just read those before)

Here is the topic before about that.
some exchanges have terms (or at least suspected policies) against mixers. but i've never seen any terms specifically against coinjoins, and i've never heard of anyone getting their account closed over it.
Aantonop said in one recent video that coinjoin is even considered "illegal" in some countries. I wasn't able to find something backing this up in a quick search.
legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 4085
Farewell o_e_l_e_o
    • Using CoinJoin increases your privacy but you have to read rules of platforms before sending your funds to them. Platforms tend to restrict CoinJoin transactions.
    • Only use Coin Join transactions if you have fully control.
    • Avoid using Coin Join transactions on third-party platforms that don't allow it.[e].



    "Not your keys, not your bitcoin" [3]
    It is a vital rule, so if one want to enhance privacy, s/he should learn to use non-custodial wallets that provide enhanced privacy, like Wasabi and Samourai. There are so many mixing platforms but it is risky to store your coins too long on those platforms. Someone made that mistake and lose their coins on scam mixing platforms.

    There are two wallets for this purpose:
    • Wasabi wallet
    • Samourai wallet
    They are both use Coinjoin to give users modification options to enhance their privacy.

    It is worth to warn you all that those wallets only enhance your privacy, and not give your completely privacy. Additionally, the personal practice of user will determine level of privacy they have.

    Now, let's see what is Coinjoin
    • CoinJoin: Bitcoin privacy for the real world
    • CoinJoin is a trustless method for combining multiple Bitcoin payments from multiple spenders into a single transaction to make it more difficult for outside parties to determine which spender paid which recipient or recipients. Unlike many other privacy solutions, coinjoin transactions do not require a modification to the bitcoin protocol. [1]
    • In very simple terms, coinjoin means: “when you want to make a transaction, find someone else who also wants to make a transaction and make a joint transaction together”. [2]

    Wasabi wallet
    Wasabi Wallet 1.0 Is Released
    Website: https://wasabiwallet.io/
    FAQs

    Why Wasabi ?
    #1 - Wasabi wallet

    The Wasabi wallet uses CoinJoin in order to anonymize BTC.

     - Pros: Easy to use; fairly cheap ~0.15% fee; pretty good privacy; automatically uses Tor
     - Cons: ~0.1BTC minimum; with a great deal of effort and investigation, transaction analysis may still be possible, especially if you leave other traces; the coordinator could possibly do an active sybil attack against specific coins

    Wasabi wallet has processed 5372 Coinjoin transactions as of writing

    What's the legal status of Wasabi/CoinJoin? [5]
    USA: On May 9, 2019, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) issued an interpretive guidance that stated the following in section 4.5.1(b):
    Both Wasabi and Monero can be thought of in terms of "anonymity sets". If you're spending some BTC with an anonymity set of 50, this means that an observer can see that the sender is one of 50 people, but they can't tell which. So someone investigating a particular transaction you sent would have you "in their sights" to a certain extent from the start since you're among the 50, but in order to prove that you sent it, they'd have to either eliminate 49 other people from consideration or find some other evidence linking you to it.

    Wasabi always aims for an anonymity set of 50 when mixing. Monero has an anonymity set of 11 per transaction. If you cascade transactions as I suggest above, then this multiplies, so after two transactions you have an anonymity set of 11*11=121, and after a cascade of three you'd have an anonymity set of 1331.

    The quality of each member in the anonymity set isn't quite comparable, though. Monero is able to hide transaction amounts, which is helpful, but I tend to consider the quality of Monero anonymity-set-members to be lower on average, since many are probably owned by hosted wallets or other possible global adversaries.

    See also

    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Privacy

    Fees for Coinjoins
    Relating to Mimblewimble and Grin, I’ve come across a couple of recent interesting reads, fresh from the oven:

    https://medium.com/dragonfly-research/breaking-mimblewimble-privacy-model-84bcd67bfe52
    https://medium.com/grin-mimblewimble/factual-inaccuracies-of-breaking-mimblewimbles-privacy-model-8063371839b9 (counters arguments to the former link).

    I don’t really know how much certainty the above articles provide, but it casts some doubt as to exactly how far the anonymity goes. At least if it’s what I was after, I’d keep reading these sort of articles for a few days to get a better idea of the extent.

    AFAIK, that medium post is nothing new.

    Base mimblewimble isn't really designed to be a "black box of reliable anonymity" in the way that Monero or Wasabi-CoinJoins are, where connections are hard-broken. It's more of a framework on which you could build solid anonymity using techniques that have largely not yet been perfected, plus major scaling benefits. Monero = CT + stealth addresses + ring signatures. Grin = CT + "stealth addresses" + mimblewimble. Because grin replaces ring signatures with mimblewimble, its privacy is less reliable than Monero's. Probably the grin developers have tried to make their mimblewimble transaction aggregation methods good, but I currently wouldn't put much faith in it, and IMO it'll take many years of research to get something really solid. That said, CT + stealth addresses offer a certain base level of privacy, and grin's method of handling stealth addresses (using an interactive protocol, exchanging "slates") is both more scalable than Monero and probably more private.

    If your goal is to mix coins, grin is definitely not for you right now, and it may never be. Monero's goal is maximal privacy, regardless of the cost. Grin's goal is excellent privacy, consistent with scaling.


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