ETF rejected - page 5. | Bitcointalksearch.org

bobo012

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Quote from: cellard on August 22, 2018, 05:24:58 PM

https://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/nysearca/2018/34-83904.pdf

Who would have guessed it? (/sarcasm)

Of course, no one but deluded noobs think that the SEC is going to pass an ETF, if not ever, at least any time soon.

The reason they allowed Futures is because with Futures they can apply a strong bearish manipulation on the market. They will not allow an ETF until they have kicked out 100% of noobs out of the market, and once they have more BTC in their hands than the rest of the world, they will allow an ETF.

BTC is going to $100,000+ with or without ETF, but without an ETF it will be slower and TPTB continues amassing BTC by extending the bear period. The only reason all these phantom derivative scams are allowed is for them to manipulate prices in their favor.

ETF is not important so much. We dont need it. Bitcoin was created to not comply with the legacy system, and as such can stand without the parts of broken economy. We will see bitcoin stronger and stronger

BartS

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Quote from: cellard on August 22, 2018, 05:24:58 PM

https://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/nysearca/2018/34-83904.pdf

Who would have guessed it? (/sarcasm)

Of course, no one but deluded noobs think that the SEC is going to pass an ETF, if not ever, at least any time soon.

The reason they allowed Futures is because with Futures they can apply a strong bearish manipulation on the market. They will not allow an ETF until they have kicked out 100% of noobs out of the market, and once they have more BTC in their hands than the rest of the world, they will allow an ETF.

BTC is going to $100,000+ with or without ETF, but without an ETF it will be slower and TPTB continues amassing BTC by extending the bear period. The only reason all these phantom derivative scams are allowed is for them to manipulate prices in their favor.

I have been thinking something similar for some time, all of those that thought that there was a good chance the ETF was going to be approved because there were many people pushing for it do not really know what this is about, powerful people are understanding that there is no way to kill this market, so they are taking a new stance, if you can't beat them, join them, and as such they are suppressing the price of bitcoin for as long as they can so they can get in this market while it is still cheap.

cellard

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Quote from: Hell-raiser on August 23, 2018, 01:42:06 PM

Quote from: cellard on August 23, 2018, 01:27:28 PM

Well, "once people realize" includes many things.

I didn't say I expect it to happen any time soon, even if it's out. First of all, it's still in the very early versions, devs are advising against doing any transaction that you cannot afford to lose because the risk is still there.

What will trigger goods and services being traded for Bitcoin (via LN) is when governments completely ban cash, so people that are basically able to subsist and have a decent life quality by working under the radar, will look for an alternative and LN will be the most viable one.

Accepting anything else but Bitcoin will not be sound, because the underlying networks will be weak and the token will have no liquidity compared to BTC. These things take time. BTC first needs to reach 1 $trillion marketcap to start scaring all the goldbugs and co and snowball effect will kick in.

It is not like I'm somehow opposed to your view. In fact, I support it fully. LN seems to effectively and efficiently solve the issue of scalability, even though some may rightfully claim that with it we are back to square one, that is, back to centralization through LN hubs, which would be blockchain banks just like our regular fiat banks are today. But that's not my point. What you say can happen but it can't happen due to or because of LN. All these good things you mentioned might not happen if there is no LN but it doesn't mean that LN is the cause of or the primary driver behind them.

It is basically the same old cart-before-the-horse problem in new clothing.

Sure LN brings some risks of centralization and it's far from ideal, but then what are the alternatives? there isn't a single altcoin that can scale for mainstream transactions on-chain without fatal consequences at layer 0. So what we have is building on top of a decentralized network.

LN will be better than the current bank system because LN will not magically raise the limit of the underlying token in which it is functioning (21 million coins) as opposed to fiat banking. Some have questioned this and claimed fractional reserve is possible, we'll have to see.

Anyway, LN and ETF, these things are optional. Who am I to stop people from using ETF or LN, people will have to assume the risks and rewards and do what's best for them.

For now, I don't see why I would use BTC to do groceries when I have fiat. But when fiat blows up it would be good to have something ready by then if BTC wants to replace fiat too. The question is: Can BTC be both digital gold and digital day-to-day cash?

muddy waters

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JOIN THE NEXT MEGATREND IN CRYPTO!

Quote from: LeGaulois on August 22, 2018, 05:42:14 PM

I told ya guys the SEC won't approve it, a lot of members were saying "this time is different" "for sure it will be approved", etc...
I hope to see them commenting on this topic to see what they have to say now Cheesy

Now I am interested to see how the market will react to this news in the next following days...

The market has already reacted - nobody is interested in investment right now and everybody is waiting for the miracle.
I also felt quite positive about ETF hoping for the recovery of the market, but it seems we all will have to wait for more time.

CryptomartN

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Quote from: cellard on August 22, 2018, 05:24:58 PM

https://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/nysearca/2018/34-83904.pdf

Who would have guessed it? (/sarcasm)

Of course, no one but deluded noobs think that the SEC is going to pass an ETF, if not ever, at least any time soon.

The reason they allowed Futures is because with Futures they can apply a strong bearish manipulation on the market. They will not allow an ETF until they have kicked out 100% of noobs out of the market, and once they have more BTC in their hands than the rest of the world, they will allow an ETF.

BTC is going to $100,000+ with or without ETF, but without an ETF it will be slower and TPTB continues amassing BTC by extending the bear period. The only reason all these phantom derivative scams are allowed is for them to manipulate prices in their favor.

People should simply not allow themselves to be tricked by the ETF rejection. Those who are trying to manipulate the market in their favour shouldn't be given the chance to actualise their goal.

jeronimosuykens

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Quote from: profitgenerator212 on August 23, 2018, 10:42:30 AM

ETF was rejected, But in today's prices are still not falling too much. ETF does not affect the market too much as I think. And I hope the market will rise without the ETF like 2017

The emergence of other currencies also depends on its ability. It may not affect the market either. If the community is low and no use for life. Even this ETF is not excluded. That is the obvious of the electronic market.

Hell-raiser

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Quote from: cellard on August 23, 2018, 01:27:28 PM

Well, "once people realize" includes many things.

I didn't say I expect it to happen any time soon, even if it's out. First of all, it's still in the very early versions, devs are advising against doing any transaction that you cannot afford to lose because the risk is still there.

What will trigger goods and services being traded for Bitcoin (via LN) is when governments completely ban cash, so people that are basically able to subsist and have a decent life quality by working under the radar, will look for an alternative and LN will be the most viable one.

Accepting anything else but Bitcoin will not be sound, because the underlying networks will be weak and the token will have no liquidity compared to BTC. These things take time. BTC first needs to reach 1 $trillion marketcap to start scaring all the goldbugs and co and snowball effect will kick in.

It is not like I'm somehow opposed to your view. In fact, I support it fully. LN seems to effectively and efficiently solve the issue of scalability, even though some may rightfully claim that with it we are back to square one, that is, back to centralization through LN hubs, which would be blockchain banks just like our regular fiat banks are today. But that's not my point. What you say can happen but it can't happen due to or because of LN. All these good things you mentioned might not happen if there is no LN but it doesn't mean that LN is the cause of or the primary driver behind them.

It is basically the same old cart-before-the-horse problem in new clothing.

cellard

legendary

Activity: 1372

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Quote from: Hell-raiser on August 23, 2018, 12:49:10 PM

Quote from: cellard on August 23, 2018, 10:55:31 AM

Quote from: Hell-raiser on August 23, 2018, 10:26:22 AM

I'm afraid this is not how things would work in reality. Actually being a currency means you can buy things with it, it has little to do with the number of decimal places. And right now there are big issues in this department. I remember people were telling that the activation of Lightning Network would help adoption. I don't know whether LN has been activated in the mainnet by now, but the number of people who fall for this cause and effect confusion seems to have diminished dramatically lately.

In this case, the problem with high prices is that people will be hoarding an ever-appreciating asset. There is no reason for them to spend it. There is ever-depreciating fiat for that. So it can be said that high price is not very good for a currency if we expect it to be used as such.

Lightning Network has been operative for what's now months, probably 6 months now? I lost count. There are a lot of nodes already, and thousands of channels, see here:

https://rompert.com/recksplorer/

This map shows the amount of nodes and connections between each other (channel) and the total amount of money on the network now past half a million USD. It's just the beginning.

Once people realize you can do business with this it will explode in use. Of course for now it's being developed.

Of course, the best use case for Bitcoin remains a store of value to protect against all inflation. It will go up with or without LN adoption, with or without ETFs.. and so on.

Well, that seems to be off-topic here but since you are OP and seem to be interested in this thing, I expand my thought a little. I for one don't expect Bitcoin adoption to explode just because LN has been activated. If it were the case, Bitcoin would have long been substituted by faster coins, which is obviously not the case. Let's recall that LN had been activated in Litecoin over a year ago, for example, but did this increase its adoption? The news greatly contributed to Litecoin's exponential growth in price, that goes without saying (I've been there), but did it actually increase its real use? I think the answer is negative. The same with Bitcoin. Of course, if there is real, explosive demand for Bitcoin as a means of payment, LN will come in quite handy, but we can't say that LN is actually going to contribute to this demand on its own in the first place.

Well, "once people realize" includes many things.

I didn't say I expect it to happen any time soon, even if it's out. First of all, it's still in the very early versions, devs are advising against doing any transaction that you cannot afford to lose because the risk is still there.

What will trigger goods and services being traded for Bitcoin (via LN) is when governments completely ban cash, so people that are basically able to subsist and have a decent life quality by working under the radar, will look for an alternative and LN will be the most viable one.

Accepting anything else but Bitcoin will not be sound, because the underlying networks will be weak and the token will have no liquidity compared to BTC. These things take time. BTC first needs to reach 1 $trillion marketcap to start scaring all the goldbugs and co and snowball effect will kick in.

Hell-raiser

sr. member

Activity: 462

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Quote from: cellard on August 23, 2018, 10:55:31 AM

Quote from: Hell-raiser on August 23, 2018, 10:26:22 AM

I'm afraid this is not how things would work in reality. Actually being a currency means you can buy things with it, it has little to do with the number of decimal places. And right now there are big issues in this department. I remember people were telling that the activation of Lightning Network would help adoption. I don't know whether LN has been activated in the mainnet by now, but the number of people who fall for this cause and effect confusion seems to have diminished dramatically lately.

In this case, the problem with high prices is that people will be hoarding an ever-appreciating asset. There is no reason for them to spend it. There is ever-depreciating fiat for that. So it can be said that high price is not very good for a currency if we expect it to be used as such.

Lightning Network has been operative for what's now months, probably 6 months now? I lost count. There are a lot of nodes already, and thousands of channels, see here:

https://rompert.com/recksplorer/

This map shows the amount of nodes and connections between each other (channel) and the total amount of money on the network now past half a million USD. It's just the beginning.

Once people realize you can do business with this it will explode in use. Of course for now it's being developed.

Of course, the best use case for Bitcoin remains a store of value to protect against all inflation. It will go up with or without LN adoption, with or without ETFs.. and so on.

Well, that seems to be off-topic here but since you are OP and seem to be interested in this thing, I expand my thought a little. I for one don't expect Bitcoin adoption to explode just because LN has been activated. If it were the case, Bitcoin would have long been substituted by faster coins, which is obviously not the case. Let's recall that LN had been activated in Litecoin over a year ago, for example, but did this increase its adoption? The news greatly contributed to Litecoin's exponential growth in price, that goes without saying (I've been there), but did it actually increase its real use? I think the answer is negative. The same with Bitcoin. Of course, if there is real, explosive demand for Bitcoin as a means of payment, LN will come in quite handy, but we can't say that LN is actually going to contribute to this demand on its own in the first place.

BitHodler

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Quote from: dothebeats on August 23, 2018, 12:06:56 PM

It would be great if the community starts to shift their attention towards the fundamentals of bitcoin with which we are lagging behind. Perhaps it's about time to make bitcoin really accessible for most people who needs it and who can really benefit from it.

Mind explaining how exactly we can make Bitcoin more accessible to the people you're referring to? It's not that there is much that we can do other than just helping those around us by providing them useful information.

I am of believe that people who really want to know more about Bitcoin's fundamentals will look up everything themselves. They also do it when it comes to its speculative side, so it's not that they don't know where to go.

If people are too caught up in getting rich with crypto currencies there isn't much that we can do. Everything you advise them to do or not to do will be disregarded because they simply are here for profits only.

indrakusumaindra

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The Standard Protocol - Solving Inflation

Quote from: cellard on August 22, 2018, 05:24:58 PM

https://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/nysearca/2018/34-83904.pdf

Who would have guessed it? (/sarcasm)

Of course, no one but deluded noobs think that the SEC is going to pass an ETF, if not ever, at least any time soon.

The reason they allowed Futures is because with Futures they can apply a strong bearish manipulation on the market. They will not allow an ETF until they have kicked out 100% of noobs out of the market, and once they have more BTC in their hands than the rest of the world, they will allow an ETF.

BTC is going to $100,000+ with or without ETF, but without an ETF it will be slower and TPTB continues amassing BTC by extending the bear period. The only reason all these phantom derivative scams are allowed is for them to manipulate prices in their favor.

Yes everyone expect this etf will got rejected. Many regulations coming and many compliance exchange also coming from different continent. This will really help cryptocurrency and ETF is for sure will be real eventually, the truth is i do still doubt that vaneck and solidx etf will be approved. But i do hope it will be approved.

dothebeats

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Cashback 15%

Lol everyone knows that the SEC has no plans of accepting any ETFs now or even in the future; it's just another form of hype building and perhaps a collaboration between the rich investors involved in bitcoin and the ones in the SEC. They make it look like the ETFs are being approved this time but lo and behold, they haven't really talked about it and considered it one bit. People will just anticipate for ETFs and those who know what's going to happen will be the ones making a buck out of these hypes.

It would be great if the community starts to shift their attention towards the fundamentals of bitcoin with which we are lagging behind. Perhaps it's about time to make bitcoin really accessible for most people who needs it and who can really benefit from it.

Pearls Before Swine

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Quote from: pitiflin on August 22, 2018, 06:23:49 PM

Quote from: LeGaulois on August 22, 2018, 05:42:14 PM

"this time is different"

This isn't the first time they are using these cliche statements.

And that is one of the worst ones for any investor to use. Usually that's a big red flag that a bubble is about to happen. That's not the case here, but it is still one of the most ignorant things they could say.

I did not expect the ETF to pass, but I also don't believe it was critical that it did. Bitcoin is robust enough that it can thrive without any attachment to the stock market or any kind of derivative. The only thing an ETF would do would be to make it more convenient for whales to speculate in btc without having to buy it and keep it in a wallet.

Quote from: profitgenerator212 on August 23, 2018, 10:42:30 AM

ETF was rejected, But in today's prices are still not falling too much. ETF does not affect the market too much as I think. And I hope the market will rise without the ETF like 2017

When the decision was delayed not too long ago, it seemed like the price dropped a lot afterward. I don't know that the delay was causal but the timing would suggest that it was. After the rejection I think people were expecting it, and if they were insiders they would have known ahead of time. Either way, this is not earth shattering news. In 2050 we'll still be talking about people trying to get an etf approved and it still won't be too important.

cellard

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Quote from: Hell-raiser on August 23, 2018, 10:26:22 AM

Quote from: drm on August 23, 2018, 09:31:39 AM

Quote from: pitiflin on August 22, 2018, 05:41:15 PM

Fuck yeah!

satoshi listened to my prayers?

Quote from: cellard on August 22, 2018, 05:24:58 PM

BTC is going to $100,000+ with or without ETF, but without an ETF it will be slower and TPTB continues amassing BTC by extending the bear period. The only reason all these phantom derivative scams are allowed is for them to manipulate prices in their favor.

I wouldn't be so sure on that, bitcoin is supposed to be a currency, and if one bitcoin is worth like 100 $, then its not a good factor, it maybe good in terms of how it looks, but in terms of long term usability, its not.

BTC being worth 100k or more wouldn't be a problem and it wouldn't stop btc from actually being a currency, we have decimals to take care of that.

I'm afraid this is not how things would work in reality. Actually being a currency means you can buy things with it, it has little to do with the number of decimal places. And right now there are big issues in this department. I remember people were telling that the activation of Lightning Network would help adoption. I don't know whether LN has been activated in the mainnet by now, but the number of people who fall for this cause and effect confusion seems to have diminished dramatically lately.

In this case, the problem with high prices is that people will be hoarding an ever-appreciating asset. There is no reason for them to spend it. There is ever-depreciating fiat for that. So it can be said that high price is not very good for a currency if we expect it to be used as such.

Lightning Network has been operative for what's now months, probably 6 months now? I lost count. There are a lot of nodes already, and thousands of channels, see here:

https://rompert.com/recksplorer/

This map shows the amount of nodes and connections between each other (channel) and the total amount of money on the network now past half a million USD. It's just the beginning.

Once people realize you can do business with this it will explode in use. Of course for now it's being developed.

Of course, the best use case for Bitcoin remains a store of value to protect against all inflation. It will go up with or without LN adoption, with or without ETFs.. and so on.

profitgenerator212

sr. member

Activity: 714

Merit: 251

ETF was rejected, But in today's prices are still not falling too much. ETF does not affect the market too much as I think. And I hope the market will rise without the ETF like 2017

BrewMaster

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There is trouble abrewing

Quote from: cellard on August 22, 2018, 05:24:58 PM

BTC is going to $100,000+ with or without ETF, but without an ETF it will be slower and TPTB continues amassing BTC by extending the bear period.

not necessarily. you can only push the price down for so long before it blows up in your face. we have seen this many times before. and with ETF bitcoin may not go up as fast as you'd expect because it still isn't bringing money into bitcoin and we need people who buy bitcoin for it to go up in price.

Hell-raiser

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 515

Quote from: drm on August 23, 2018, 09:31:39 AM

Quote from: pitiflin on August 22, 2018, 05:41:15 PM

Fuck yeah!

satoshi listened to my prayers?

Quote from: cellard on August 22, 2018, 05:24:58 PM

BTC is going to $100,000+ with or without ETF, but without an ETF it will be slower and TPTB continues amassing BTC by extending the bear period. The only reason all these phantom derivative scams are allowed is for them to manipulate prices in their favor.

I wouldn't be so sure on that, bitcoin is supposed to be a currency, and if one bitcoin is worth like 100 $, then its not a good factor, it maybe good in terms of how it looks, but in terms of long term usability, its not.

BTC being worth 100k or more wouldn't be a problem and it wouldn't stop btc from actually being a currency, we have decimals to take care of that.

I'm afraid this is not how things would work in reality. Actually being a currency means you can buy things with it, it has little to do with the number of decimal places. And right now there are big issues in this department. I remember people were telling that the activation of Lightning Network would help adoption. I don't know whether LN has been activated in the mainnet by now, but the number of people who fall for this cause and effect confusion seems to have diminished dramatically lately.

In this case, the problem with high prices is that people will be hoarding an ever-appreciating asset. There is no reason for them to spend it. There is ever-depreciating fiat for that. So it can be said that high price is not very good for a currency if we expect it to be used as such.

tepakpak

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News that never ends, I am confused about this, is it true that etf affects the price of bitcoin until it falls and continues to fall, can anyone help me to convince it? I just think this is market manipulation.

darthmaul

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I think it is the time we should stop talking about the SEC, because I am very "SICK" to read about them. Its been long time since when these absurd are just playing stuff around and thinking that they are going to put big ban on the crypto currency. I am now sure that they dont want to see the growth of the ban and they have already done the hand shake with government and signed contract to reject all the decisions further, and take down the crypto by creating distress news among the people. You see where I am going with this Roll Eyes

bongnor531

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And it did not really affect the price. I do not think that if it was approved alone would have brought mecca to the market.

Topic: ETF rejected - page 5. (Read 916 times)