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Topic: EU cripples future graphics cards (by regulating max. energy consumption) (Read 3008 times)

legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
Here's what I have been observing also:

1) CFLs are more expensive to manufacture than incandescents

2) CFLs are therefore considerable more expensive to buy than incandescents.

3) There is therefore a strong downward pressure on price for incandescents

4) Chinese knock out cheap, low quality incandescents

5) Cheap, low quality incandescents fail early, meaning that their claimed cost savings are not reached and their energy and resource TCO suck donkey parts compared to incandescents.

6) Statism does the fail thing once more.

7) Statism apologists scramble to make rationalizations. Cue:
This post makes no sense.

perverse incentives created by the state result in sub optimal behavior of the market.

Actually the reason for the low quality incandescent bulbs is lower demand, less research into them and everyone knowing there is not much future there.  They are a niche market.  There will be junk ones and good high end ones as well. 

So far incandescents have not been taxed and here the POWER COMPANY is subsidizing CFL's so they can avoid building an expensive power plant.  I got 4 CFL's for $1.99 last week.   
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
perverse incentives created by the state result in sub optimal behavior of the market.
To be fair, I had a brain fart and typed incandescent when I meant CFLs and ended up making my argument about incandescents vs incandescents.  Undecided
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 500
Here's what I have been observing also:

1) CFLs are more expensive to manufacture than incandescents

2) CFLs are therefore considerable more expensive to buy than incandescents.

3) There is therefore a strong downward pressure on price for incandescents

4) Chinese knock out cheap, low quality incandescents

5) Cheap, low quality incandescents fail early, meaning that their claimed cost savings are not reached and their energy and resource TCO suck donkey parts compared to incandescents.

6) Statism does the fail thing once more.

7) Statism apologists scramble to make rationalizations. Cue:
This post makes no sense.

perverse incentives created by the state result in sub optimal behavior of the market.
hero member
Activity: 590
Merit: 500
Everyone is missing the most ridiculous part of the article:  The EU wants to cap MEMORY BANDWIDTH, not just power consumption.

Quote
The commission wants to stop dedicated graphics cards of group G7 from going above 320 GB/s - that is in theory a memory bus at 384-bit connected to memory operating at 6667 MHz or 512-bit with 5001 MHz. This is definitely within reach for the next generation graphics cards. Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition currently has a bandwidth of 288 GB/s with a 384-bit memory bus and 6000 MHz memory. For notebooks the limit will be only 225 GB/s.

Wrong.

Go read the proposed regulations.  It's about sleep/idle power draw, power supply efficiency and power factor.

It says nothing about how much the system can draw when it's in active use.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1008
If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat
Everyone is missing the most ridiculous part of the article:  The EU wants to cap MEMORY BANDWIDTH, not just power consumption.

Quote
The commission wants to stop dedicated graphics cards of group G7 from going above 320 GB/s - that is in theory a memory bus at 384-bit connected to memory operating at 6667 MHz or 512-bit with 5001 MHz. This is definitely within reach for the next generation graphics cards. Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition currently has a bandwidth of 288 GB/s with a 384-bit memory bus and 6000 MHz memory. For notebooks the limit will be only 225 GB/s.

No, they don't.  In fact they EXEMPT cards with high memory bandwidths from this recommendation if they are in a high end system.  

"1.1.3. Category D desktop computers and integrated desktop
computers meeting all of the following technical parameters are
exempt from the requirements specified in points 1.1.1 and
1.1.2:
(a) a minimum of six physical cores in the central processing
unit (CPU); and
(b) discrete GPU(s) providing total frame buffer bandwidths
above 320 GB/s; and
(c) a minimum 16GB of system memory; and
(d) a PSU with a rated output power of at least 1000 W. "

The whole idea of allowing politicians to determine computer specs is just ridiculous on a monumental level.
/thread
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
Everyone is missing the most ridiculous part of the article:  The EU wants to cap MEMORY BANDWIDTH, not just power consumption.

Quote
The commission wants to stop dedicated graphics cards of group G7 from going above 320 GB/s - that is in theory a memory bus at 384-bit connected to memory operating at 6667 MHz or 512-bit with 5001 MHz. This is definitely within reach for the next generation graphics cards. Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition currently has a bandwidth of 288 GB/s with a 384-bit memory bus and 6000 MHz memory. For notebooks the limit will be only 225 GB/s.

No, they don't.  In fact they EXEMPT cards with high memory bandwidths from this recommendation if they are in a high end system.  

"1.1.3. Category D desktop computers and integrated desktop
computers meeting all of the following technical parameters are
exempt from the requirements specified in points 1.1.1 and
1.1.2:
(a) a minimum of six physical cores in the central processing
unit (CPU); and
(b) discrete GPU(s) providing total frame buffer bandwidths
above 320 GB/s; and
(c) a minimum 16GB of system memory; and
(d) a PSU with a rated output power of at least 1000 W. "

The whole idea of allowing politicians to determine computer specs is just ridiculous on a monumental level.

Correct.  Computers change too fast and politicians change too slowly.  Also politicians are not computer experts.  (well actually they are not experts in anything as far as I can tell)

But again, the title of the orginal article is FUD. 
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
Everyone is missing the most ridiculous part of the article:  The EU wants to cap MEMORY BANDWIDTH, not just power consumption.

Quote
The commission wants to stop dedicated graphics cards of group G7 from going above 320 GB/s - that is in theory a memory bus at 384-bit connected to memory operating at 6667 MHz or 512-bit with 5001 MHz. This is definitely within reach for the next generation graphics cards. Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition currently has a bandwidth of 288 GB/s with a 384-bit memory bus and 6000 MHz memory. For notebooks the limit will be only 225 GB/s.

No, they don't.  In fact they EXEMPT cards with high memory bandwidths from this recommendation if they are in a high end system.  

"1.1.3. Category D desktop computers and integrated desktop
computers meeting all of the following technical parameters are
exempt from the requirements specified in points 1.1.1 and
1.1.2:
(a) a minimum of six physical cores in the central processing
unit (CPU); and
(b) discrete GPU(s) providing total frame buffer bandwidths
above 320 GB/s; and
(c) a minimum 16GB of system memory; and
(d) a PSU with a rated output power of at least 1000 W. "

Curse my decision to go quad core.

Wait, I don't live in the EU. Hopefully we'll dump O-bum-a and be free of such nonsense for another four years at least.


Edit: They do realise that this means that anyone who wants a decent GPU will now go with a power hungry, resource eating monster of a machine, right?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Everyone is missing the most ridiculous part of the article:  The EU wants to cap MEMORY BANDWIDTH, not just power consumption.

Quote
The commission wants to stop dedicated graphics cards of group G7 from going above 320 GB/s - that is in theory a memory bus at 384-bit connected to memory operating at 6667 MHz or 512-bit with 5001 MHz. This is definitely within reach for the next generation graphics cards. Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition currently has a bandwidth of 288 GB/s with a 384-bit memory bus and 6000 MHz memory. For notebooks the limit will be only 225 GB/s.

No, they don't.  In fact they EXEMPT cards with high memory bandwidths from this recommendation if they are in a high end system.  

"1.1.3. Category D desktop computers and integrated desktop
computers meeting all of the following technical parameters are
exempt from the requirements specified in points 1.1.1 and
1.1.2:
(a) a minimum of six physical cores in the central processing
unit (CPU); and
(b) discrete GPU(s) providing total frame buffer bandwidths
above 320 GB/s; and
(c) a minimum 16GB of system memory; and
(d) a PSU with a rated output power of at least 1000 W. "

The whole idea of allowing politicians to determine computer specs is just ridiculous on a monumental level.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
Everyone is missing the most ridiculous part of the article:  The EU wants to cap MEMORY BANDWIDTH, not just power consumption.

Quote
The commission wants to stop dedicated graphics cards of group G7 from going above 320 GB/s - that is in theory a memory bus at 384-bit connected to memory operating at 6667 MHz or 512-bit with 5001 MHz. This is definitely within reach for the next generation graphics cards. Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition currently has a bandwidth of 288 GB/s with a 384-bit memory bus and 6000 MHz memory. For notebooks the limit will be only 225 GB/s.

No, they don't.  In fact they EXEMPT cards with high memory bandwidths from this recommendation if they are in a high end system.  

"1.1.3. Category D desktop computers and integrated desktop
computers meeting all of the following technical parameters are
exempt from the requirements specified in points 1.1.1 and
1.1.2:
(a) a minimum of six physical cores in the central processing
unit (CPU); and
(b) discrete GPU(s) providing total frame buffer bandwidths
above 320 GB/s; and
(c) a minimum 16GB of system memory; and
(d) a PSU with a rated output power of at least 1000 W. "
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I usually agree with snopes but they have let their lawyers alter their good judgement on this one.  They are still making people fear a broken CFL.  A broken CFL has less mercury then a TUNA SANDWICH.  If you break one, clean it up manually not with a vacuum. Open the windows if you can, but do not fear....  If you ate 100% of the mercury in the bulb it is less then that sandwich. 

I was speaking more to this point:

Quote
Like batteries, used CFLs need to be disposed at a toxic waste depot rather than tossed out with the ordinary household trash. Because mercury is cumulative, this poisonous element would add up if all the spent bulbs went into a landfill. Instead, the mercury in dead bulbs is reclaimed at such depots and recycled.

But, yes, the rather involved clean-up procedures are a bit much.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
I find it interesting that nobody has mentioned the toxicity of CFL bulbs, especially when compared to standard incandescent. Who'd have thunk that much mercury would be "green"?

I do not recommend eating CFL's.  That is enough information for 99% of the population.  

I think Snopes (as usual) does a fine job of examining the dangers (and relative lack thereof) of CFL bulbs: http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/cfl.asp

Bottom line, they need special disposal procedures, unlike incandescent bulbs.

How much mercury is there in a CFL?  Once you answer this question, put that answer in the context of other sources of mercury around you. Coal plants and fish, for example. Correct for the toxicity factor of organomercury vs. elemental mercury. Come back to us.

4-5 milligrams. How much is in an incandescent bulb?

Yes, it's less than living next to a coal plant. Yes, the risk factor of having a CFL bulb is minimal. I have two burning in my bedroom right now, and 5 more in the living room. I'm just suggesting that maybe power consumption isn't the only factor we should be looking at to determine the "green-ness" of a bulb.

I usually agree with snopes but they have let their lawyers alter their good judgement on this one.  They are still making people fear a broken CFL.  A broken CFL has less mercury then a TUNA SANDWICH.  If you break one, clean it up manually not with a vacuum. Open the windows if you can, but do not fear....  If you ate 100% of the mercury in the bulb it is less then that sandwich. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I find it interesting that nobody has mentioned the toxicity of CFL bulbs, especially when compared to standard incandescent. Who'd have thunk that much mercury would be "green"?

I do not recommend eating CFL's.  That is enough information for 99% of the population.  

I think Snopes (as usual) does a fine job of examining the dangers (and relative lack thereof) of CFL bulbs: http://www.snopes.com/medical/toxins/cfl.asp

Bottom line, they need special disposal procedures, unlike incandescent bulbs.

How much mercury is there in a CFL?  Once you answer this question, put that answer in the context of other sources of mercury around you. Coal plants and fish, for example. Correct for the toxicity factor of organomercury vs. elemental mercury. Come back to us.

4-5 milligrams. How much is in an incandescent bulb?

Yes, it's less than living next to a coal plant. Yes, the risk factor of having a CFL bulb is minimal. I have two burning in my bedroom right now, and 5 more in the living room. I'm just suggesting that maybe power consumption isn't the only factor we should be looking at to determine the "green-ness" of a bulb.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
You know how difficult it was to even get a blue light? the guy won a Nobel prize for getting a blue light on LED. It was widely accepted as impossible, until the guy did it.
I wonder how many people have died because of the invention of the blue LED.

Those things are the worst thing to ever happen to the ergonomics of consumer electronics. Once they were commercially available manufacturers started putting them everywhere and devices inevitably get brought into bedrooms the result is subtle, but real, disruption in sleep which has a non-trivial effect on health.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Everyone is missing the most ridiculous part of the article:  The EU wants to cap MEMORY BANDWIDTH, not just power consumption.

Quote
The commission wants to stop dedicated graphics cards of group G7 from going above 320 GB/s - that is in theory a memory bus at 384-bit connected to memory operating at 6667 MHz or 512-bit with 5001 MHz. This is definitely within reach for the next generation graphics cards. Radeon HD 7970 GHz Edition currently has a bandwidth of 288 GB/s with a 384-bit memory bus and 6000 MHz memory. For notebooks the limit will be only 225 GB/s.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
I find it interesting that nobody has mentioned the toxicity of CFL bulbs, especially when compared to standard incandescent. Who'd have thunk that much mercury would be "green"?

I do not recommend eating CFL's.  That is enough information for 99% of the population.  
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
I find it interesting that nobody has mentioned the toxicity of CFL bulbs, especially when compared to standard incandescent. Who'd have thunk that much mercury would be "green"?
How much mercury is there in a CFL?  Once you answer this question, put that answer in the context of other sources of mercury around you. Coal plants and fish, for example. Correct for the toxicity factor of organomercury vs. elemental mercury. Come back to us.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I find it interesting that nobody has mentioned the toxicity of CFL bulbs, especially when compared to standard incandescent. Who'd have thunk that much mercury would be "green"?
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
Why would you support a complete ban on them? If people want to buy them, what's wrong with that?

It's a complete waste of energy. Better technology already exists, no reason to continue using them.

For the vast majority of uses you are correct.  I am still not for a total ban.  There are some outlier uses where the incandescent bulb is the best choice.   It is a shame that people will purchase them because of impressions of early or cheap CFL's that are no longer true.  An education campaign would be a better idea then a ban. 

Someone earlier said that CFL's don't work well in the extreme cold.  That is sort of true, but almost all of the quality ones will start in -40.  They can take 5-10 mins to warm up to full brightness in extreme cold.  If you only intermittently use the bulb then go incandescent but that is an extreme outlier use.  Even in that use, if you had the CFL bulb on 24/7 it would use less power then an incandescent on 1/3 of the time and the CFL would be at full brightness as it was always on. 
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
Just remember that stupid regulations are always for some good cause. Proof of the day:
Al Gore’s hundred million dollars
http://www.cfact.org/2012/10/16/al-gores-hundred-million-dollars/
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
When I first heard it this morning in UK on The Inquirer news site,I thought,holy s*** the EU decides it wants to regulate the very components I want to use inside my PC now.Talk about getting into my personal business.What business is it how powerful my PC is to someone other than me (the regulators). If anything,people like me will simply hasten up their plans to migrate to a country outside EU to escape these ridiculous regs.They banned traditional lightbulbs (non-CFL/LED),then they restrict certain supplements and now they're trying to regulate how powerful my GPU is.I mean come on.Whats next? I'm just happy I started to realise (better late than never) how useful freedom can be (esp in Uk where we're all convinced that the more regs,the better.I mean sure we need some regs but not so damn many lol)

Even though I find all this downright bizzare,we can find ways around it,question is will they start checking everything we import into EU too?

The unregulated high-tech computer industry has been amazingly successful. Just imagine how much better things will be now we have the helping hand of government to guide us.
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