Ever heard about financing a gambler? - page 16.

Hirose UK

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Quote from: Oilacris on November 01, 2023, 06:59:26 PM

For me then i wont really be that too easy when it comes to money even on how close we are as a friend. There's no such thing about giving out some finance support specially on gambling.
Even if you arent a gambler then its impossible that you wont really be able to know on what are the potential risks and problems into those people who are engaging into it.

That true and when you yourself are gambler can be sure that would prefer to use that money as your own capital to gamble rather than having to fund other people who may not necessarily be able to return the amount of money that we give them to gamble.
We already understand how gambling carries out very dangerous risks, so funding someone to gamble is the same as throwing away money for free because the only certainty in gambling is defeat.

Quote from: PX-Z on November 01, 2023, 08:28:17 PM

Quote from: redsun114 on November 01, 2023, 12:38:50 PM

If a person asks you to finance their gambling activities as a loan that they will repay after a certain period of time, that's still understandable because you will at least know that you will get your money back even if the gambler loses it all, but if it's like a partnership thing where the profits will be split, then it's obviously foolish to do it since gambling is all about luck and no one can earn guaranteed profits from it because it's a business for the owners and not for the players.

When a gambler ask to finance their gambling activities its like a partnership if you agree, and you will suffer more if he loss. Unless he said specifically that it's a loan and he will pay for it.
But regardless, i won't do on such things, you will only encourage him to gamble more, where in fact he already ask loan to gamble, that shit is already awful, and addiction that should be stopped early.

It not a partnership problem because when we lose we ourselves bear the loss but when we win that person gets the profit while we only get back the amount of capital that was previously given.
Borrowing is also not recommended because they use it for gambling, even though there is an agreement to return the amount of money but we never know when they will be able to return it.
And when they have money, they definitely prefer to use it for gambling rather than having to pay back the amount of money they borrowed first.
Honestly, I little skeptical of gamblers.

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Quote from: redsun114 on November 01, 2023, 12:38:50 PM

If a person asks you to finance their gambling activities as a loan that they will repay after a certain period of time, that's still understandable because you will at least know that you will get your money back even if the gambler loses it all, but if it's like a partnership thing where the profits will be split, then it's obviously foolish to do it since gambling is all about luck and no one can earn guaranteed profits from it because it's a business for the owners and not for the players.

When a gambler ask to finance their gambling activities its like a partnership if you agree, and you will suffer more if he loss. Unless he said specifically that it's a loan and he will pay for it.
But regardless, i won't do on such things, you will only encourage him to gamble more, where in fact he already ask loan to gamble, that shit is already awful, and addiction that should be stopped early.

Oilacris

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Quote from: AmoreJaz on November 01, 2023, 06:43:50 PM

Quote from: redsun114 on November 01, 2023, 12:38:50 PM

Quote from: PX-Z on October 28, 2023, 11:42:24 AM

That's a no-no for me, instead of financing him/her to play regardless his/her previous records, why not just put it on me and let me play the bet instead especially if its a lucky based games. Now if it's a sports book, maybe, for some reasons if i saw her/his previous bet results.
But high chance i wil not accept it lol, unless it's a lend/loan type for my security.

If a person asks you to finance their gambling activities as a loan that they will repay after a certain period of time, that's still understandable because you will at least know that you will get your money back even if the gambler loses it all, but if it's like a partnership thing where the profits will be split, then it's obviously foolish to do it since gambling is all about luck and no one can earn guaranteed profits from it because it's a business for the owners and not for the players.

When giving out such a loan, always make sure that the person asking for the loan is actually trusted and have a good track record of repaying loans on time and not stretching the deadlines all the time and still not paying the money because such people will make you bad look at the end if you keep asking them about the money.

the dilemma on this situation is it is hard to rely if your friend or that person will indeed honor your agreement. if he is losing, how can you expect his payments? maybe, you can give him his first loan, but if he didn't respect your arrangements, better not to enter the second one.
hard to trust gamblers esp if you are a gambler yourself. Tongue

so for me, better not to offer a loan or of that sort even if you are friends with them. a lot of good friends are being broken because of money.

For me then i wont really be that too easy when it comes to money even on how close we are as a friend. There's no such thing about giving out some finance support specially on gambling.
Even if you arent a gambler then its impossible that you wont really be able to know on what are the potential risks and problems into those people who are engaging into it.

AmoreJaz

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Quote from: redsun114 on November 01, 2023, 12:38:50 PM

Quote from: PX-Z on October 28, 2023, 11:42:24 AM

That's a no-no for me, instead of financing him/her to play regardless his/her previous records, why not just put it on me and let me play the bet instead especially if its a lucky based games. Now if it's a sports book, maybe, for some reasons if i saw her/his previous bet results.
But high chance i wil not accept it lol, unless it's a lend/loan type for my security.

If a person asks you to finance their gambling activities as a loan that they will repay after a certain period of time, that's still understandable because you will at least know that you will get your money back even if the gambler loses it all, but if it's like a partnership thing where the profits will be split, then it's obviously foolish to do it since gambling is all about luck and no one can earn guaranteed profits from it because it's a business for the owners and not for the players.

When giving out such a loan, always make sure that the person asking for the loan is actually trusted and have a good track record of repaying loans on time and not stretching the deadlines all the time and still not paying the money because such people will make you bad look at the end if you keep asking them about the money.

the dilemma on this situation is it is hard to rely if your friend or that person will indeed honor your agreement. if he is losing, how can you expect his payments? maybe, you can give him his first loan, but if he didn't respect your arrangements, better not to enter the second one.
hard to trust gamblers esp if you are a gambler yourself. Tongue

so for me, better not to offer a loan or of that sort even if you are friends with them. a lot of good friends are being broken because of money.

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Quote from: Z390 on October 10, 2023, 02:06:20 AM

How will you feel if someone you know or just a friend of a friend walk up to you and ask you to finance them in gambling in exchange for a portion of their winnings? Does this even make any sense?

Because the only place this makes a bit sense is the skills base niche like forex trading or crypto trading, how can gambling/gambler be financed?

Have you heard of such before? What is the end result if you have?

Why would you trust anyone to gamble better than you can when it's all about luck?

Is anyone doing this on here?

Someone explained this to me, and I believe he is already a victim because to me it doesn't make sense, I believe he is been used because he lacks knowledge about gambling, do you think my judgment is wrong?

If you really think that skills are important in crypto trading you are very likely to get scammed by so-called crypto guru traders. Because crypto prices are way less foreseeable than sport betting. So I think it's rather easy to check the skills of a bettor asking this kind of things. The bigger risk is to get the funds confiscated by a dishonest bookmaker, so you have to be mostly cautious about that.

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Quote from: PX-Z on October 28, 2023, 11:42:24 AM

That's a no-no for me, instead of financing him/her to play regardless his/her previous records, why not just put it on me and let me play the bet instead especially if its a lucky based games. Now if it's a sports book, maybe, for some reasons if i saw her/his previous bet results.
But high chance i wil not accept it lol, unless it's a lend/loan type for my security.

If a person asks you to finance their gambling activities as a loan that they will repay after a certain period of time, that's still understandable because you will at least know that you will get your money back even if the gambler loses it all, but if it's like a partnership thing where the profits will be split, then it's obviously foolish to do it since gambling is all about luck and no one can earn guaranteed profits from it because it's a business for the owners and not for the players.

When giving out such a loan, always make sure that the person asking for the loan is actually trusted and have a good track record of repaying loans on time and not stretching the deadlines all the time and still not paying the money because such people will make you bad look at the end if you keep asking them about the money.

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Quote from: junder on October 28, 2023, 11:38:05 AM

Quote from: maydna on October 28, 2023, 10:49:21 AM

~snip~

Of course every gambler will have their own way and comfort in gambling, like your case here, you prefer to gamble alone rather than joining other friends, and I see the reason for your statement is quite impressive where you prefer to gamble alone compared to other friends because it seems like you are trying to prevent things that are not wanted such as overacting, because as we know when we gamble with several friends together then they are very likely to provoke us to continue playing even though we have lost, your actions are quite good as a prevention. And yes besides that it is true, in my opinion it is a fact, if one of you gets a big jackpot then surely he will pay for the food in the group at that time.

I think it's better that way, if you're hanging out with friends then just enjoy your time with them, chatting or exchanging ideas for something more positive than gambling together, and it could be that one of your friends who is there who has never gambled at all will eventually follow you because they are curious and a little provoked. That's one of the positive sides in my opinion and also haha maybe you can also avoid a little from friends who like to borrow to gamble.

I just don't know whether playing gambling with friends will not make one or several of them continue gambling or whether they will be able to control themselves after they have finished gambling. Instead of taking risks by provoking my friends, I should gamble alone at home, and even though, at that time, I gambled with them, it was just to liven up the atmosphere and nothing more. I prefer to enjoy the atmosphere by drinking drinks and snacks and watching my friends gamble. Apart from that, I can look after my friends and will act if someone starts to lose control of themselves when gambling.

Yes, I also feel that if we gather together, it is better just to enjoy the time rather than use it for other things. That way, we can find out about what has happened and can share experiences that can help us get something useful from them. Moreover, we also meet less and less because of our busy lives, so when we get together and meet, it will be a fun time.

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: Z390 on October 10, 2023, 02:06:20 AM

How will you feel if someone you know or just a friend of a friend walk up to you and ask you to finance them in gambling in exchange for a portion of their winnings? Does this even make any sense?

Because the only place this makes a bit sense is the skills base niche like forex trading or crypto trading, how can gambling/gambler be financed?

Have you heard of such before? What is the end result if you have?

Why would you trust anyone to gamble better than you can when it's all about luck?

Is anyone doing this on here?

Someone explained this to me, and I believe he is already a victim because to me it doesn't make sense, I believe he is been used because he lacks knowledge about gambling, do you think my judgment is wrong?

I have never experienced this, they often lend me money, and of course I lend because I trust them. But in this situation, I don't think I can give it to my friend because it's still money and I know that I often lose here. It would be good if it was business, but it's gambling, so I think it's a pass.
It's hard to rely on luck, especially when it comes to this kind of talk.

Better not, as there's always a big risk when playing, there's no assurance that anyone can continually win while playing and most of the
time, the outcome is on the other side.

Instead of giving them that luxury and lend them money better to give them decent advice and if they are really a friend, chances that they might listen.

If not, the good practice is not to allow them to get anything from you and never to give them any opportunity to think that gambling
is a good way of making money, because we all know it's not.

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Quote from: Z390 on October 10, 2023, 02:06:20 AM

How will you feel if someone you know or just a friend of a friend walk up to you and ask you to finance them in gambling in exchange for a portion of their winnings? Does this even make any sense?

The answer to this question is simple: No, and tell the person that if you want to gamble you have to spend your own capital. It's different if I personally really want to give tips from the big wins I got, with the nominal and amount I determined just to enjoy some games. The result or failure when he bets does not cost him to pay, he is free to spend it in the casino or cash out if he wins. I myself often do this to some of my closest friends.

Quote from: Z390 on October 10, 2023, 02:06:20 AM

Someone explained this to me, and I believe he is already a victim because to me it doesn't make sense, I believe he is been used because he lacks knowledge about gambling, do you think my judgment is wrong?

Maybe this was exploited due to a lack of knowledge, apparently the person who asked for funding was quite addicted to gambling and tried to win over his friend to satisfy his own gambling with the sweet promise of sharing the winnings. I'm not the type of person who likes to trick my closest friends into gambling/funding gambling, especially if he has never tried it at all, I will still forbid it.

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Quote from: PX-Z on October 28, 2023, 11:42:24 AM

That's a no-no for me, instead of financing him/her to play regardless his/her previous records, why not just put it on me and let me play the bet instead especially if its a lucky based games. Now if it's a sports book, maybe, for some reasons if i saw her/his previous bet results.
But high chance i wil not accept it lol, unless it's a lend/loan type for my security.

From time to time we hear of similar offers on the forum of a gambler looking for someone to lend them some money and share the profits, and fortunately for what I can see no one is willing to lend them any money as it is obvious it is a scam.

However even if the person that was asking me this was someone that I knew and they tried to give me some sort of guarantee I will still refuse, as the risk is too high and the potential benefits are not quite there.

PX-Z

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That's a no-no for me, instead of financing him/her to play regardless his/her previous records, why not just put it on me and let me play the bet instead especially if its a lucky based games. Now if it's a sports book, maybe, for some reasons if i saw her/his previous bet results.
But high chance i wil not accept it lol, unless it's a lend/loan type for my security.

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Quote from: maydna on October 28, 2023, 10:49:21 AM

Quote from: piebeyb on October 27, 2023, 09:50:38 AM

Quote from: maydna on October 27, 2023, 08:59:12 AM

~snip~

That's why I never want to gamble with friends or other people around me. For me, friends should only be enough outside of gambling, so I always differentiate that when I'm with my friends, it's better to sit back and relax with them while drinking coffee and chatting, but for I probably don't want to gamble with them even though they are actually gamblers, that's why I prefer to gamble alone at home.

I always refuse my friend's invitation if I want to gamble at a physical casino out there or play gambling together, usually I will find an excuse for him not to invite me, unless my friend asks me to go out to just drink coffee and chat I will accept his invitation, the point is I really Avoid gambling with my friends because it can prevent my friends from borrowing money from me, let alone asking me to finance the gambling that my friends want.

I prefer to gamble alone rather than with my friends, even though my friends often invite me to gamble. But at that time, I could control myself not to gamble too much, and mostly, I sat and drank soft drinks and watched them play. Besides, if one of us wins, he has to pay for the soft drink, hahaha.

I prefer to gather with friends and drink coffee and chat because it can provide a different atmosphere of intimacy between all of us. Besides, we can chat about many things without hiding anything because we are all close friends. So none of us borrow money to gamble because we don't want any problems that might arise later.

Of course every gambler will have their own way and comfort in gambling, like your case here, you prefer to gamble alone rather than joining other friends, and I see the reason for your statement is quite impressive where you prefer to gamble alone compared to other friends because it seems like you are trying to prevent things that are not wanted such as overacting, because as we know when we gamble with several friends together then they are very likely to provoke us to continue playing even though we have lost, your actions are quite good as a prevention. And yes besides that it is true, in my opinion it is a fact, if one of you gets a big jackpot then surely he will pay for the food in the group at that time.

I think it's better that way, if you're hanging out with friends then just enjoy your time with them, chatting or exchanging ideas for something more positive than gambling together, and it could be that one of your friends who is there who has never gambled at all will eventually follow you because they are curious and a little provoked. That's one of the positive sides in my opinion and also haha maybe you can also avoid a little from friends who like to borrow to gamble.

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Quote from: piebeyb on October 27, 2023, 09:50:38 AM

Quote from: maydna on October 27, 2023, 08:59:12 AM

~snip~

That's why I never want to gamble with friends or other people around me. For me, friends should only be enough outside of gambling, so I always differentiate that when I'm with my friends, it's better to sit back and relax with them while drinking coffee and chatting, but for I probably don't want to gamble with them even though they are actually gamblers, that's why I prefer to gamble alone at home.

I always refuse my friend's invitation if I want to gamble at a physical casino out there or play gambling together, usually I will find an excuse for him not to invite me, unless my friend asks me to go out to just drink coffee and chat I will accept his invitation, the point is I really Avoid gambling with my friends because it can prevent my friends from borrowing money from me, let alone asking me to finance the gambling that my friends want.

I prefer to gamble alone rather than with my friends, even though my friends often invite me to gamble. But at that time, I could control myself not to gamble too much, and mostly, I sat and drank soft drinks and watched them play. Besides, if one of us wins, he has to pay for the soft drink, hahaha.

I prefer to gather with friends and drink coffee and chat because it can provide a different atmosphere of intimacy between all of us. Besides, we can chat about many things without hiding anything because we are all close friends. So none of us borrow money to gamble because we don't want any problems that might arise later.

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Quote from: piebeyb on October 27, 2023, 09:50:38 AM

Quote from: maydna on October 27, 2023, 08:59:12 AM

So instead of having small problems like that, we should refuse if someone wants to borrow money to gamble. They can't even guarantee that they can win, and even if they can guarantee it, it can't always happen because it's hard for us to know when we can win.

That's why I never want to gamble with friends or other people around me. For me, friends should only be enough outside of gambling, so I always differentiate that when I'm with my friends, it's better to sit back and relax with them while drinking coffee and chatting, but for I probably don't want to gamble with them even though they are actually gamblers, that's why I prefer to gamble alone at home.

I always refuse my friend's invitation if I want to gamble at a physical casino out there or play gambling together, usually I will find an excuse for him not to invite me, unless my friend asks me to go out to just drink coffee and chat I will accept his invitation, the point is I really Avoid gambling with my friends because it can prevent my friends from borrowing money from me, let alone asking me to finance the gambling that my friends want.

Yes, the chance of those people borrowing money from you is possible. Knowing that you are also involved with that same activity, they will pretend that
you fully understand the need and you will be required to loan them.

Though if for entertainment purpose, I can go with my friend and play either online or offline casinos as I also wanted to have someone who I can
share my stories, both my wins and my losses.

There are different approaches in terms of lending a friend. You should know how to balance and weight the needs and the possibility
on how they can repay the money.

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Quote from: maydna on October 27, 2023, 08:59:12 AM

So instead of having small problems like that, we should refuse if someone wants to borrow money to gamble. They can't even guarantee that they can win, and even if they can guarantee it, it can't always happen because it's hard for us to know when we can win.

That's why I never want to gamble with friends or other people around me. For me, friends should only be enough outside of gambling, so I always differentiate that when I'm with my friends, it's better to sit back and relax with them while drinking coffee and chatting, but for I probably don't want to gamble with them even though they are actually gamblers, that's why I prefer to gamble alone at home.

I always refuse my friend's invitation if I want to gamble at a physical casino out there or play gambling together, usually I will find an excuse for him not to invite me, unless my friend asks me to go out to just drink coffee and chat I will accept his invitation, the point is I really Avoid gambling with my friends because it can prevent my friends from borrowing money from me, let alone asking me to finance the gambling that my friends want.

maydna

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Quote from: len01 on October 27, 2023, 12:21:23 AM

Quote from: maydna on October 26, 2023, 10:37:31 AM

~snip~

bad behavior and a very bad mindset thinking that borrowing money to fund gamblers or even funding gamblers with personal money is the same as unreasonable behavior and the risk is greater when losing money because we all know and the OP also wrote that gambling is based on luck which is not yet true. of course it can be successful depending on the level of luck, whereas out of 10 bets there will only be 1 lucky bet or even no win at all and this is how gambling works to get profits from its customers but as customers we have to be smart in understanding how this works rather than having a bad mindset make a profit from gambling.

for some reason there are still many people who have thoughts about making a profit from gambling even though that is a difficult scenario to do unless you can understand how arbitrage betting may be a little more certain but still not safe when the risk comes to seize your account and funds.

If they are really lucky, they can win easily, but most gamblers can't get lucky and will only lose at the start of the game. This will only make them more curious and eager to continue gambling, and in the end, they will only lose and lose all their money, including the money they borrowed from us. If so, he cannot return the money, and there is a possibility that he will avoid us. Usually, that happens to friends who borrow money from us, and they will disappear until they think we have forgotten the money they borrowed.

So instead of having small problems like that, we should refuse if someone wants to borrow money to gamble. They can't even guarantee that they can win, and even if they can guarantee it, it can't always happen because it's hard for us to know when we can win.

len01

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Quote from: maydna on October 26, 2023, 10:37:31 AM

Quote from: knowngunman on October 26, 2023, 06:02:23 AM

Quote from: Z390 on October 10, 2023, 02:06:20 AM

How will you feel if someone you know or just a friend of a friend walk up to you and ask you to finance them in gambling in exchange for a portion of their winnings? Does this even make any sense?

Although I ever did this before but I would definitely not finance anyone to gamble again whether they're a friend or not. It's not ethical to finance someone else's gambling and it's also a risky financial move. And even if they do win there's no guarantee that they will actually share their winnings with you. Anyone who asks you to finance their gambling is asking you to take a major risk with your own money and it's just not worth it. My finances are too important to gamble with.

What you say is true because that is their wish, and we also don't need to finance other people's gambling. We are only worried that he cannot pay back the money he borrowed to gamble due to total defeat and losing all his money. That is risky for him and us, who have lent him money to gamble, so we also bear the consequences. It is true that if he wins, he can get money, but there is no guarantee that he can control himself to continue gambling after getting the win. He could have told her that he still needed his money to gamble a few more rounds so that his winnings would be bigger and he could pay back all his debts. The risk would be even greater if he said that because in the next round, he could lose all his money, so he couldn't return the loan to us.

bad behavior and a very bad mindset thinking that borrowing money to fund gamblers or even funding gamblers with personal money is the same as unreasonable behavior and the risk is greater when losing money because we all know and the OP also wrote that gambling is based on luck which is not yet true. of course it can be successful depending on the level of luck, whereas out of 10 bets there will only be 1 lucky bet or even no win at all and this is how gambling works to get profits from its customers but as customers we have to be smart in understanding how this works rather than having a bad mindset make a profit from gambling.

for some reason there are still many people who have thoughts about making a profit from gambling even though that is a difficult scenario to do unless you can understand how arbitrage betting may be a little more certain but still not safe when the risk comes to seize your account and funds.

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Quote from: Suzume on October 26, 2023, 05:20:52 AM

Gambler finance condition is always good.

No, in fact quite lot of gamblers are people from the lower middle class and they gamble with the aim of making a profit.
Can this be said that the financial condition of gamblers is always good?

It easy when they have good financial conditions they won't gamble to make money but to have fun.
When they have a lot of money they can accept defeat but basically they chase wins to recover their losses.

Quote

If you are beginner Gambler then you don't have much that kind experience to take a sure gamble in a prediction there is a different kinds of gamble I don't know every type of gamble I am saying about beting. I have seen many peoples invest a lot of amount money by gamble in cricket football etc. Sometime I also gamble in this kind of match who is sure that I will win. Some of my friends are full time Gambler they predict in every match and their winning weight is to high and they earn a lot of amount of money from gamble. I don't say that they win everytime. It's a game where is loose or win the lost her money sometime but they recover it. In starting of gambling The Lost a lot of amount money but after getting experience in gamble. In every sure match they invest a lot of amount money. I am watching them and their financial condition improve from there before condition I think gambling can change people final condition.

Of course as time goes by novice gamblers will have more experience and when they have a lot of experience they can usually think clearly and can differentiate between what is good and what is not.
But from what you have said I still don't agree because gambling is not an investment and gambling is something that involves risking money whereas investment means you put money in shares or assets to get profit and can take it out at any time, which is different from gambling, the nature of which is still uncertain.

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Quote from: knowngunman on October 26, 2023, 06:02:23 AM

Quote from: Z390 on October 10, 2023, 02:06:20 AM

How will you feel if someone you know or just a friend of a friend walk up to you and ask you to finance them in gambling in exchange for a portion of their winnings? Does this even make any sense?

Although I ever did this before but I would definitely not finance anyone to gamble again whether they're a friend or not. It's not ethical to finance someone else's gambling and it's also a risky financial move. And even if they do win there's no guarantee that they will actually share their winnings with you. Anyone who asks you to finance their gambling is asking you to take a major risk with your own money and it's just not worth it. My finances are too important to gamble with.

What you say is true because that is their wish, and we also don't need to finance other people's gambling. We are only worried that he cannot pay back the money he borrowed to gamble due to total defeat and losing all his money. That is risky for him and us, who have lent him money to gamble, so we also bear the consequences. It is true that if he wins, he can get money, but there is no guarantee that he can control himself to continue gambling after getting the win. He could have told her that he still needed his money to gamble a few more rounds so that his winnings would be bigger and he could pay back all his debts. The risk would be even greater if he said that because in the next round, he could lose all his money, so he couldn't return the loan to us.

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Quote from: Z390 on October 10, 2023, 02:06:20 AM

How will you feel if someone you know or just a friend of a friend walk up to you and ask you to finance them in gambling in exchange for a portion of their winnings? Does this even make any sense?

Although I ever did this before but I would definitely not finance anyone to gamble again whether they're a friend or not. It's not ethical to finance someone else's gambling and it's also a risky financial move. And even if they do win there's no guarantee that they will actually share their winnings with you. Anyone who asks you to finance their gambling is asking you to take a major risk with your own money and it's just not worth it. My finances are too important to gamble with.

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Because the only place this makes a bit sense is the skills base niche like forex trading or crypto trading, how can gambling/gambler be financed?

No, it's all the same thing with just slight different level of risk.

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Have you heard of such before? What is the end result if you have?

Yes, it has happened to me before and the end result wasn't a good one. I don't think I will ever try it again.

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Why would you trust anyone to gamble better than you can when it's all about luck?

Gambling is completely a game of luck actually that no one has a perfect way to win every time. It's impossible to predict the outcome of any gamble but we are more experience than each other in the game but it is still unwise to finance someone else's gambling just because they claim to be better at it than you.

Topic: Ever heard about financing a gambler? - page 16. (Read 3435 times)