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Topic: Evergrande situation - page 2. (Read 484 times)

legendary
Activity: 2688
Merit: 1192
October 13, 2021, 04:03:52 PM
#37
Now we all have seen that Bitcoin reacted really well to the recent events, especially China's cryptos ban and Evergrande's crisis.


The second topic is the one I want to particularly focus on (crypto ban looks ridiculous and useless, so I don't wanna focus on that), because the Chinese central bank warned everybody of a possible "storm" that could occur in these weeks.


Do you think that we can consider this crisis solved or should we really expect another little bearish move?

I think due to the very way the Chinese government is structured a lot of problems are hidden away and buried as deep as possible all along the chain. It does seem like most of the fallout of this Evergrande crisis should be contained within China, although it will make a lot of people very angry because the collateral is millions of people have lost the biggest investment they'll ever make (property). There is also likely to be a domino effect throughout the whole property market because every building related company will now face borrowing and liquidity problems because lenders will be avoiding them for a while. The government is unlikely to bail them out, internal investors seem to be getting priority of any payments due which is going to turn foreign investors off China for a while since that trust is broken.
hero member
Activity: 3220
Merit: 678
www.Crypto.Games: Multiple coins, multiple games
October 13, 2021, 03:59:14 PM
#36
What in my opinion results from everything China does is that they want to have world attention, they want the world to revolve around them, since the pandemic that came from there has monopolized all the attention, and it is normal, if we take taking into account that after the Second World War there has always been the hegemony of the US dollar, the Chinese have always wanted to dominate the world widely in every way.

 When they talked about the prohibition of crypto, mining, in 2018 it did give a great bearish impact to the market, now in 2021 where it is known that the best world economy is China, because they are the only ones that are very stable economically, want to have control, hegemony and attention for them, it is for this reason that any Chinese attack on bitcoin and cryptocurrencies no longer has any impact, firstly because it is a government that does it, and if we take into account the irreverence of people towards it. government, the dynasties in 2021 no longer have an effect on humanity or money.
China will always do something that will help CCP and not directly china. Sure there are times when what benefits CCP also benefits China so it looks like a good thing, but it is 100% obvious that even if it hurts China as a whole, if it benefits CCP they will do it. This is why they banned crypto as well, do you really think that billions of dollars coming into China from other nations somehow hurt china? Of course it did not hurt china, it helped china a ton, at least Chinese people were capable of making much more profit and they were capable of living a great life. Then why did the ruler of China banned something that helped China?

Well, simply because they are only interested in ruling and not interested in making it better. This is why it ended up being something that hurt them instead of something that helped them and they banned it, only because it would weaken the powerful.
member
Activity: 116
Merit: 45
October 13, 2021, 01:13:11 PM
#35
It will affect Bitcoin anyway.

Investors would be less likely to buy it, leading to prices falling as a result.

It isn't independent from the rest of the economy, it can be affected by a recession.
copper member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1901
Amazon Prime Member #7
October 13, 2021, 01:03:14 PM
#34
Some may find this piece informative.

...

It appears china has an outstanding $8.2 trillion LGFV (local government financing vehicles outstanding) bubble to rival the united states student loan or housing bubbles.
...

My interpretation of this data is quite different. Firstly, the fact that there is debt does not mean there is a bubble. A bubble is created when stuff is bought for the only reason of selling it more expensive to someone else. You may argue that there might be a credit risk, but these loans against vehicles are quite different from loans against houses particularly coming from the gov. which would endure even massive defaults or print a bit of cash.
Local Chinese governments receive a lot of their revenue from selling land for development. Even if Evergrande does not ultimately fail, it will likely slow the rate at which it starts new projects, as will other developers. This will negatively affect local governments' finances in China. Also, the fact that the debt is hidden from the public is problematic because once the debt is discovered, creditors will be more hesitant to lend to local governments. Most government debt is paid off by selling more debt (something similar to refinancing the debt), and if governments are unable to raise more money via the credit markets, it becomes more likely they will default.

Maybe I'm missing something, but to me it looks like a government bailout is pretty much possible, considering that China's GDP was around 102 trillion Yuan (16 trillion USD) in 2020, and estimated to be even higher this year.

I think this "Chinese Communist Party mouthpiece", the Global Times



should shut the f*ck up, and the Chinese government should deal with the situation.
It is not trivial for the Chinese government to bail out a company as big as Evergrande. The Chinese government cannot issue massive amounts of debt the same way the US government can, and the interest rate it needs to pay is almost twice that of what the US government pays.

There are also political problems with bailing out Evergrande. If Evergande gets bailed out, the government will start to get blamed when Evergrande cannot deliver homes on time.
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 2246
🌀 Cosmic Casino
October 13, 2021, 02:34:42 AM
#33
~

Or the CCP could have best of both situations, maintain their reputation and save the economy. They let Evergrande crash as a company, but pump money in to save housing projects and developments for the people who already paid for their houses. The CCP could also do what the Bank of Japan did, become the largest owner of their nation’s companies. PRINT MONEY, BUY EVERYTHING.

Actually it's interesting to what extent this money printing business can expand without causing significant inflation? I mean, we all know that in countries like Zimbabwe and Venezuela the process of depreciation starts developing pretty soon after the money printing press starts working more than usually. But what about countries like the US, China and Japan? Sometimes I think that they can allow themselves to print as much money as they need to deal with an unexpected situation such as Evergrande.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
October 11, 2021, 04:16:38 AM
#32
Now we all have seen that Bitcoin reacted really well to the recent events, especially China's cryptos ban and Evergrande's crisis.


The second topic is the one I want to particularly focus on (crypto ban looks ridiculous and useless, so I don't wanna focus on that), because the Chinese central bank warned everybody of a possible "storm" that could occur in these weeks.


Do you think that we can consider this crisis solved or should we really expect another little bearish move?

What in my opinion results from everything China does is that they want to have world attention, they want the world to revolve around them, since the pandemic that came from there has monopolized all the attention, and it is normal, if we take taking into account that after the Second World War there has always been the hegemony of the US dollar, the Chinese have always wanted to dominate the world widely in every way.

 When they talked about the prohibition of crypto, mining, in 2018 it did give a great bearish impact to the market, now in 2021 where it is known that the best world economy is China, because they are the only ones that are very stable economically, want to have control, hegemony and attention for them, it is for this reason that any Chinese attack on bitcoin and cryptocurrencies no longer has any impact, firstly because it is a government that does it, and if we take into account the irreverence of people towards it. government, the dynasties in 2021 no longer have an effect on humanity or money.


They want to risk an economic recession, and risk an uprising because of said economic recession because they simply want “World Attention”? I believe not. Obviously it’s because, MANY officials in their bureaucracy have been sleeping behind the wheel.
hero member
Activity: 2408
Merit: 584
October 09, 2021, 01:14:07 PM
#31
I don’t think crisis is much of a problem in the cryptocurrency market. We have sentence that similar to that take place on they don’t affect the market price in any way at all. Maybe it might have an effect in the Fiat or the economy of that particular country where it took place, but as for cryptocurrency, is it totally different thing. So, there’s no way that is going to have any effect at all.

The price of Bitcoin is already going up so I don’t think we should be expecting any negative impact this time around. That’s it for me, and I strongly believe that is how it’s going to be.
legendary
Activity: 2632
Merit: 1883
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
October 09, 2021, 11:04:07 AM
#30
Now we all have seen that Bitcoin reacted really well to the recent events, especially China's cryptos ban and Evergrande's crisis.


The second topic is the one I want to particularly focus on (crypto ban looks ridiculous and useless, so I don't wanna focus on that), because the Chinese central bank warned everybody of a possible "storm" that could occur in these weeks.


Do you think that we can consider this crisis solved or should we really expect another little bearish move?

What in my opinion results from everything China does is that they want to have world attention, they want the world to revolve around them, since the pandemic that came from there has monopolized all the attention, and it is normal, if we take taking into account that after the Second World War there has always been the hegemony of the US dollar, the Chinese have always wanted to dominate the world widely in every way.

 When they talked about the prohibition of crypto, mining, in 2018 it did give a great bearish impact to the market, now in 2021 where it is known that the best world economy is China, because they are the only ones that are very stable economically, want to have control, hegemony and attention for them, it is for this reason that any Chinese attack on bitcoin and cryptocurrencies no longer has any impact, firstly because it is a government that does it, and if we take into account the irreverence of people towards it. government, the dynasties in 2021 no longer have an effect on humanity or money.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
October 09, 2021, 05:32:39 AM
#29
Now we all have seen that Bitcoin reacted really well to the recent events, especially China's cryptos ban and Evergrande's crisis.

The second topic is the one I want to particularly focus on (crypto ban looks ridiculous and useless, so I don't wanna focus on that), because the Chinese central bank warned everybody of a possible "storm" that could occur in these weeks.

Do you think that we can consider this crisis solved or should we really expect another little bearish move?
I believe the company could still go bankrupt, and CCP should just finish the job and give everyone the houses. I hate companies getting away with stuff and by the looks of it even in a communist dictatorship there could be a bailout, which is not good at all. I hate companies getting away with stuff and people are getting nothing in return.

So, the best way to handle this would be giving everyone the houses they paid for, even if they paid less than what they should so far and not the whole thing, just give people the houses because that is already a good thing for the public, and then let the company bankrupt, call it even and not ask for more debt from the owners. That way you have a company that got away with being bad without paying any debt, a public that has a lot more people with houses and a government that would be applauded for doing it.


I believe the bond holders holding the debt issued by Evergrande would not be the priority of the CCP. The priority would only be those people who already paid, to be getting their houses, which might make the CCP print less Yuan. But would the CCP want an era of economic stagnation? CCP - “PRINT THE MONEY”, BRRR!
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1102
October 09, 2021, 05:21:25 AM
#28
Now we all have seen that Bitcoin reacted really well to the recent events, especially China's cryptos ban and Evergrande's crisis.

The second topic is the one I want to particularly focus on (crypto ban looks ridiculous and useless, so I don't wanna focus on that), because the Chinese central bank warned everybody of a possible "storm" that could occur in these weeks.

Do you think that we can consider this crisis solved or should we really expect another little bearish move?
I believe the company could still go bankrupt, and CCP should just finish the job and give everyone the houses. I hate companies getting away with stuff and by the looks of it even in a communist dictatorship there could be a bailout, which is not good at all. I hate companies getting away with stuff and people are getting nothing in return.

So, the best way to handle this would be giving everyone the houses they paid for, even if they paid less than what they should so far and not the whole thing, just give people the houses because that is already a good thing for the public, and then let the company bankrupt, call it even and not ask for more debt from the owners. That way you have a company that got away with being bad without paying any debt, a public that has a lot more people with houses and a government that would be applauded for doing it.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
October 09, 2021, 02:36:37 AM
#27
Maybe I'm missing something, but to me it looks like a government bailout is pretty much possible, considering that China's GDP was around 102 trillion Yuan (16 trillion USD) in 2020, and estimated to be even higher this year.

I think this "Chinese Communist Party mouthpiece", the Global Times

should shut the f*ck up, and the Chinese government should deal with the situation.

If there is a domino effect, then the Chinese government will certainly put up a bailout umbrella if it has not already been activated. Evergrande has 300 billion in debt, according to official figures. Part of this can certainly be covered by the assets. The rest would then be no problem for the government to settle. In Europe, there was a much larger bailout in 2010-2014. The problem is rather the shadow banking system, where nobody knows who is involved and whether the debts are in reality much higher. A comparison with Lehman is wrong in my opinion, because the situation is different.


China will produce an “ACT” that makes it “LOOK” like it will not do a bail-out, but it will have no other choice and the CCP will actually do the bail-out. I’m very confident that China’s government will BRRR-print the Yuan on 2022.

Yep. In fact, Evergrande is too big to fail, indeed, and CCP  knows it. And printing Yuan more than usually maybe will not be necessary. I mean, they are printing it all the time, and in a country that big, it goes almost unnoticeable. That's how people close to power become billionaires in such regimes: they convert newly printed local money to hard currencies before the exchange rate will start declining.


Or the CCP could have best of both situations, maintain their reputation and save the economy. They let Evergrande crash as a company, but pump money in to save housing projects and developments for the people who already paid for their houses. The CCP could also do what the Bank of Japan did, become the largest owner of their nation’s companies. PRINT MONEY, BUY EVERYTHING.
hero member
Activity: 1526
Merit: 596
October 09, 2021, 02:09:38 AM
#26
Now we all have seen that Bitcoin reacted really well to the recent events, especially China's cryptos ban and Evergrande's crisis.


The second topic is the one I want to particularly focus on (crypto ban looks ridiculous and useless, so I don't wanna focus on that), because the Chinese central bank warned everybody of a possible "storm" that could occur in these weeks.


Do you think that we can consider this crisis solved or should we really expect another little bearish move?

Crisis not averted, but crypto is going to be completely independent of this anyhow.

We've seen how strongly crypto has rebounded during COVID as well as the Evergrande crisis in the beginning stages.

People will start realizing that fiat economy woes have nothing to do with bitcoin or other decentralzed cryptos, period. There will probably be more defaults but bitcoin is also an asset class of its own.
full member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 106
October 08, 2021, 02:47:23 PM
#25
apart from that we never know what is happening in the area because there is a lot of news about China but all come from sources which are indeed very difficult to see the truth because when we look at China it seems like nothing has happened but there are so many problems in it.
There are so many examples of cases that were really covered up by the government there, such as at the beginning of the Covid-19 outbreak, besides that there was news about abandoned real estate there and now news that has happened recently.
we always see news that has been filtered by China itself and news that may be shocking will not come out easily about the current conditions in China.
and it's clear their government is covering it up.

but whatever it is, bitcoin remains a bitcoin that will not be affected by anything even though there is a lot of negative news from china.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1129
October 08, 2021, 01:21:06 PM
#24
It is obvious that this is a problem for China, and yes it will have a bit of impact in other parts of the world but not in the big nations of the west, hence it is not a global issue, it is only an issue for China and all the nations that benefit from China which is just some small nations china helps that's it.

So, I would assume that bitcoin will not be impacted at all and we could ignore it if our nation is not getting too much benefit from them. USA was different because USA had interests all over the world and the moment 2008 happened even Spain, Italy, Greece all got gutted and that is why I believe we should not be comparing the two. I believe China banned crypto at the very right time, just ignore them the way they ignored us.
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 2246
🌀 Cosmic Casino
October 08, 2021, 05:36:47 AM
#23
Maybe I'm missing something, but to me it looks like a government bailout is pretty much possible, considering that China's GDP was around 102 trillion Yuan (16 trillion USD) in 2020, and estimated to be even higher this year.

I think this "Chinese Communist Party mouthpiece", the Global Times

should shut the f*ck up, and the Chinese government should deal with the situation.

If there is a domino effect, then the Chinese government will certainly put up a bailout umbrella if it has not already been activated. Evergrande has 300 billion in debt, according to official figures. Part of this can certainly be covered by the assets. The rest would then be no problem for the government to settle. In Europe, there was a much larger bailout in 2010-2014. The problem is rather the shadow banking system, where nobody knows who is involved and whether the debts are in reality much higher. A comparison with Lehman is wrong in my opinion, because the situation is different.


China will produce an “ACT” that makes it “LOOK” like it will not do a bail-out, but it will have no other choice and the CCP will actually do the bail-out. I’m very confident that China’s government will BRRR-print the Yuan on 2022.

Yep. In fact, Evergrande is too big to fail, indeed, and CCP  knows it. And printing Yuan more than usually maybe will not be necessary. I mean, they are printing it all the time, and in a country that big, it goes almost unnoticeable. That's how people close to power become billionaires in such regimes: they convert newly printed local money to hard currencies before the exchange rate will start declining.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
October 08, 2021, 02:15:53 AM
#22
Maybe I'm missing something, but to me it looks like a government bailout is pretty much possible, considering that China's GDP was around 102 trillion Yuan (16 trillion USD) in 2020, and estimated to be even higher this year.

I think this "Chinese Communist Party mouthpiece", the Global Times

should shut the f*ck up, and the Chinese government should deal with the situation.

If there is a domino effect, then the Chinese government will certainly put up a bailout umbrella if it has not already been activated. Evergrande has 300 billion in debt, according to official figures. Part of this can certainly be covered by the assets. The rest would then be no problem for the government to settle. In Europe, there was a much larger bailout in 2010-2014. The problem is rather the shadow banking system, where nobody knows who is involved and whether the debts are in reality much higher. A comparison with Lehman is wrong in my opinion, because the situation is different.


China will produce an “ACT” that makes it “LOOK” like it will not do a bail-out, but it will have no other choice and the CCP will actually do the bail-out. I’m very confident that China’s government will BRRR-print the Yuan on 2022.
legendary
Activity: 3024
Merit: 1132
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
October 07, 2021, 01:06:39 PM
#21
I would say that China grew way faster than they anticipated and that is why I believe they are living this problem right now. This doesn't mean that they will end up with something worse than USA, but it is obvious that we are seeing something that is building up to be something that is very difficult for a whole nation at least. China is also "helping" underdeveloped nations by building stuff there to make those nations better and then charge for it (business basically) which will be stopped or at least halt for a while, so it will impact some other nations as well.

Long story short this will not be good obviously, but it will not be horrible neither, doubt it would rival 2008 or 2020, it will probably be a temporary crash and then it will go back up and become better later on. Even 2008 got better eventually so I doubt this will matter too much.
member
Activity: 868
Merit: 63
October 07, 2021, 12:06:55 PM
#20
Why would anyone watch out for China and their forecast that a storm's brewing in the crypto market? They're out of the game, they're doing that just to make sure that they're own bitcoin's grow and they can buy more, they don't have stake in it besides the fact that they're manipulating the market to grow their bitcoin portfolio.
hero member
Activity: 1890
Merit: 831
October 07, 2021, 11:55:05 AM
#19
Some may find this piece informative.


Quote
Goldman Flags $8.2 Trillion Threat Worse Than China Evergrande

Sep 30, 2021

The real worry concerning the China Evergrande default drama is the inevitable where-there’s-smoke-there’s-fire paranoia that accompanies debt stumbles.

The most worrisome such blaze, say analysts at Goldman Sachs, is surging local government debt levels that President Xi Jinping’s men have done their best to hide. The default troubles at the globe’s most indebted property development seem like small embers compared to the $8.2 trillion worth of local government financing vehicles outstanding.

And that’s just the LGFVs we know of. The data that Goldman’s Maggie Wei highlights is as of the end of 2020. Clearly, the tally is higher now—perhaps markedly. Ten months ago, these shadowy investment schemes had reached 53 trillion yuan, up from 16 trillion yuan, or $2.47 trillion, in 2013. They now amount to roughly 52% of China’s gross domestic product, topping the official amount of outstanding government debt.

In other words, as scary at the $300 billion Evergrande story might be, Xi’s government has much bigger problems on its hands. The most acute: keeping GDP this year from falling too far below the 6% Beijing hoped to produce without adding to the nation’s bubble troubles.

The forces behind local governments sitting on financing-vehicle debt worth twice the size of Germany’s GDP date back to 2008. Even before the Lehman Brothers crisis, Communist Party dynamics encouraged municipal borrowing binges. The way local officials got attention in Beijing—and rose to national prominence—was producing above-average GDP rates.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williampesek/2021/09/30/goldman-flags-82-trillion-threat-worse-than-china-evergrande/


It appears china has an outstanding $8.2 trillion LGFV (local government financing vehicles outstanding) bubble to rival the united states student loan or housing bubbles.

China's economy is still rolling along despite chinese banks defaulting and needing to be bailed out. Coupled with many catastrophic articles published about large chinese enterprises failing across the board.

The united states war in the middle east is claimed to have costed more than $12 trillion by some sources. If china pursues war against hong kong, taiwan and neighboring territories. What would the cost be? Military technology in a modern age is so overwhelmingly expensive, it could carry the potential to make war too expensive an option to pursue, without eventually bankrupting warring nations.

With the individual cost of sophisticated missiles rivaling the cost of a lamborghini. At a certain point, launching lambos at foreign countries would have to become economically unfeasible, is it fair to say.

I do think that with the Crisis lurking right around the corner, the people would have a hard time trusting the normal currencies. The fiat might become obsolete in many Nations.

We might see people flocking to invest in cryptocurrencies like Bitcoins. At the end of the day, they might work exactly how they worked in the pandemic, despite the whole crisis people were still earning, making money, therefore I do think it might not be such a bad news for Bitcoins, if it was able to take the hit from China, we might already be looking at something made stronger by endless attacks from banks, governments and everything else as well.

Nothing to worry about it, it's not going to affect bitcoin since it's not crypto related. Plus it's not really our problem since it's China's internal problem and no matter how I look at it, I always see that it can only affect China alone so it's much better.

The fact is, the Chinese government is long set to release their own token, their own so called crypto, which is nothing but fiat2.0, they have been giving hints about banning bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies since ages therefore I do think that, this step was due from their side, they already were giving hints, so it should not be a shock to us.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 1055
October 07, 2021, 09:54:43 AM
#18
For many this all has not been much of a surprise at all.  My former manager at a large financial firm I used to work for sent me an article one day that was titled something like "the ghost cities of china".  The article predicted exactly what's going on today.  China has had these major real-estate issues for years now and the writing has been on the wall.  How will this all play out? Who knows, China lies about everything, so it's hard to truly know whats going on over there.  

there are serious problems besides that evergrande debts and  ghost cities of china. the growing threats on the expansions thay build and taiwan conflict which could cause war. but all thes also affecting other nations as this all started with money printing.

if china prints their currency too thru the CBDC, the debts of other countries to china will also starts to bubble up. all countries with trade relations to china has to keep printing money from now on.
this will lead to BTC domination.
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