Topic: Everyone is a victim not just the Gox customers - page 2. (Read 4107 times)

Victim mentality = Entitlement mentality.

OK maybe I was not clear enough. In many places there is a limit for cash transactions to prevent money laundering. For example in Germany shops can accept up to 10 000 EUR in cash, per day and per customer, without ID. No problem for normal people, but certainly a hurdle for a criminal with a suitcase full of cash 

So the existing limits of that nature (typically $10K or 10K EUR) are fine. A store could take $10 000 from each customer, daily, and convert it into BTC. Trouble is, the legislation and justice system is so hostile against BTC that no one can do that in practice...

Example is that Florida case. AML limit is $10K but the other law really limits cash transactions to $299. Or zero, if the buyer makes a dumb joke. Not cool...

That's a bit of a philosophic question, but..

But isn't that a bit of a misconception?
To think that without law enforcement or Military people would not defend theirselves?  That without Public education children wouldn't be educated anymore? That without Health Care people could not get treatment for diseases? Without public goods there wouldn't been build any roads or bridges? Or, without money people would not trade any more?

All the things you name are (or should be) to the benefit of people, and controlled by people. But, well ... that is Utopia. It seems. ..  

with this statement you are establishing regulations. You may not mean it intentionally, but you're calling for no regulations and then contradicting your original petition by saying this should be a rule. While I do agree that regulations should be toned down, I just wanted to point out this issue that I noticed.

Huh???   Nobody is withdrawing in USD from Gox here in the USA.   Nobody has been for months, and months.  At least not without waiting months and months to get their money.  Its hardly the exchange that the USA has been using.  Totally dead opposite in fact.  What are you talking about?


Who is relying heavily on Gox?  ??   Definitely not "we"  (USA).  They had their US bank accounts frozen 9 months ago.

Gox has only been repeatedly referenced in the media because their price is always the highest, and its fun to say "BTC is worth $1100!" when its actually trading at 900 on all the other exchanges.


Huh??

The big investors (wall street, etc) have used SecondMarket and exchanges like CoinBase in the USA.  

The big investors in China used BTC-China.

Man ... your information is so way off in so many ways.

:-/

-B-

Absolutely.


Well, you should.

Just ask yourself the question, why are there so few exchanges that accept money worldwide, from US and non-US people? It is easy to acccept  SEPA, Swift and national transfers and send out BTC. A 12 year old can do that. It is not the technology, it is the aggression from governments, mainly USG, that stops entrepreneurs from doing that. They are afraid that one day, they will be kidnapped and abducted to the USA and spend 20 years in prison for a crimeless crime, even if they operated from a foreign country.

Or shops that accept cash and send you BTC, right away? Cash for BTC is 100% safe, all that is needed (technically) is a cash checker.

In theory there is nothing difficult about renting a small shop and doing that, then expanding to other locations to start a chain of cash-to-btc cafes. But sure enough, AML and KYC horrors will stop anyone from doing that as well.

There are BTC ATM's but even those require ID, fingerprints and so on - again that is not a technical requirement at all, technically all is needed is a cash checker and a bitcoin address.

If anonymous BTC ATM's would be everywhere, that alone would reduce scam dramatically. Only real cash for real btc, without the need for risky unknown counterparties or complicated AML procedures at an exchange.

What is holding BTC back today, is 10% private scammers and 90% government scammers IMHO 

While I don't want too much regulation , it's lack of regulation that have allowed so many scam sites and questionable companies operate in the bitcoin field the last few years.  Again I don't want too much regulation, but I've never seen any evidence that allowing something to be the wild wild west would somehow limit the number of bad actors.

You know what? That's a great idea. Lets step beating around the bush and just go completely decentralized.

Law enforcement? Military? Public education? Health care? Public goods? etc.

Who needs them? Lets make every person responsible for their own life and see how that works out.




Half-measures are for pussies.

I want to be victim with 34m$ in my pocket too...

Well I think it was poor management at Mt.Gox that made this a problem that it is now. As for making it a problem for all, that is true, it won't affect only them, Mt.Gox has 19% market share so it will affect everybody.

Unfortunately bitcoin and all alt currencies in general are fighting an uphill battle against corruption/fraud/scams within its own community.  Forget about governments or government regulation.  There's enough scams and corruption on any btc or alt coin forum/website to make a grown man paranoid to the point of schizophrenia. 

So no.  I don't place the blame on governments.  That's just the easy cop out excuse.  I place blame on the inherent nature of digital goods and the constant impending risks of hacking and or being defrauded on direct transactions.  Now...compound that with a completely unregulated market NOT overseen by a more powerful entity to ensure things are running in a fair space...and it turns into armaggedon.  And that's where we're at right now. 

At any point in time, any or all of these exchanges can pack up their bags and leave with hundreds of millions of dollars of our investments.  And they wouldn't face any recourse.  Why? Because they're unregulated.  Same goes for getting your bitcoins stolen on a scam in the for-sale section in this forum.  Good luck trying to file a police report and having them returned by a 'blockchain cop.'

That is what you call a CATCH 22.


I'd like to think the best of MT Gox and that this is all just a huge misunderstanding and they'll eventually make good on their word, but at this point it's not looking good.  Chances are they could have been doing massive selloffs of the btc before suspending withdrawls and knowing that the price would plummet. 

This is the chance we all take with cryptos.  We must put our 'blind faith' into others when it comes to acquiring/trading more of it.  And unfortunately there are a lot more bad guys out there than we'd like to think there are.  And a great number of them lie at the top of the food chain in companies and corporations, just like our own governments.

Now, it seems others here know much more about the subject than I do. I'm just a Newbie for that matter, but .. This topic got my attention, and your posting made me wonder about the next.

Now, I don't know that much about the topic (yet), but - and I can only speak of my own experience - in my opinion it already does.

I signed up an account at Mt. Gox for I wanted to experience the buying of some BTC. And shortly after that I read all kinds of disturbing news about Mt. Gox and that people are starting to wandering if it is all a scam. Now, after that I have put my original plans on a hold. I decided to first get more information about the subject, and then - in time, some months or so maybe - buy some BTC and trade them/buy products with it.
So, I guess I am one of those newcomers, that - because of this news - hesitate now. And I can only guess it keeps much more people away. I can imagine that this is not a good development for companies that wholy or partly rely on doing their business with BTC.

Could it be that that is exactly what banks/governments are trying to do with their regulation-efforts?? Or is that a stupid question?

Nothing, that makes sense, is going to happen until governments can make their money from it. When the governments gladly jump on board. That's the time to get out.

There were. Most of them took the money and ran.

Yes, and those exchanges that rip people off would be very quickly recognized by the Bitcoin community and no-one would do business with them. If there were many exchanges then they'd have a incentive to build a good reputation, otherwise everyone would ditch them and go to the competition. The dodgy exchanges would go out of business pretty quickly, while those with excellent customer service and a squeaky-clean track record would become very very rich. That's how the free market regulates itself. 

Will be interesting to see where Mt Gox goes... if it becomes a total scam then it will be really bad for the credibility of the crypto coins. Hope they will redeem all the missing BTCs.

All governments are necessary evil. For them to exist victims required.
btw, don't worry bitcoin will survive, they need it to form a cashless society, it's been a long dream of the elites to make everyone use Big Brother worthless, trackable, decryptable money so that they can switch off wealth of an individual or do whatever they want with the economy.

No one is a victim.
When i check my Bitcoin-QT ... i always have what i have buy (and mine).
I trust the bitcoin protocol to old my BTC in any case even my country crash ... and government freeze my bank account.

Don't compare the crap internet business (or government) with a secured network, please.

No, that would only happen for 15 minutes. After a few people got burned, and after everyone got burned a few times, they would ALL start doing due diligence before they did any Bitcoin business. After that, only honest businesses would survive. Some of the dishonest business owners would die in the process.

Isn't it about time that we start taking responsibility for our lives rather than letting governments do it?

No, I wrote  "evil governments regulating everything to death". Good governments would not do that, they would only stop scammers. You never learned the difference between evil and good, as a kid? Worrying.

At the same time bad exchanges would go out of business quickly = damage control. Governments don't go out of business even if they are bad; so there is no damage control.