Topic: Evidence of Neo Nazi in Ukrainian military units. - page 2. (Read 7419 times)

I second this, most of the people do not have direct benefit. For example, if you own a house in the ukraine.. whats the market price value now?

they already did, didn't you check the new government composition and relation to neo nazi groups? Sadly the real loser here is Ukrain and Ukrainian population, while Russia and the west are only fighting for their geopolitical and economical interest.

Italian journalist Andrea Ronchelli believed to have been killed in Ukraine

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/25/italian-journalist-andrea-ronchelli-believed-killed-ukraine

Listen what is written on truck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESSLLmy4nbg

Worse than what the Nazis did in WW2. Patients and staff hiding in basements after hospital being shelled by the Ukrainian army in Slavyansk.



Andrea Rocchelli, Italian reporter killed in Sloviansk.

Yes, but all governments are in power because people don't overthrown them. In the end, all power rests on consent, at least from the army that keeps obeying. The allies censured the German people for not revolting against the Nazis. Anyway, that was a rhetorical justification.
But I end here my participation in this debate.

LOL
This "Government" is founded not by elections.

Read what I wrote and your answer. I think I did had all the right to think you were talking about all the Ukrainian, that allowed people like that to be members of their Government.
But your correction makes your sentence more acceptable.

Unless you think the ministers of that party punch the others in the face until they comply with their wishes, they are in minority in the Government and hence in most cases the Government doesn't adopt their policy. Therefore, the Government is not a fascist one, at most he has some fascists elements. And the Parliament was democratically elected. Probably, the previous Ukrainian elections were much more democratic than the ones in present Russia. I admit the future elections are going to be problematic, as the Russian referendums on the east were.

I'm not going to roll here all the atrocities of Stalin that had nothing to do with forced industrialization. I wrote I wouldn't go into this debate. Anyway, you are justifying at least these atrocities connected with forced industrialization.

And, no, most of the specialists think Stalin didn't believe those reports. Even if the history that Khrushchev writes in his memoirs about Stalin being away in depression after the German attack is a lie (told him by Beria, he says), many witnesses (including Zhukov) writing about the issue said he was completely surprised. If Soviet Union was expecting an imminent attack it would be much better prepared, if not near the boarders to avoid a provocation, at least with defenses away from them.

Actually, there are many writers, including several specialists, mainly Russians (V. Suvorov, M. Meltiukhov, V. Nevezhin, V. Danilov and A. Solzhenitsyn) but also Germans (J. Hoffmann, W. Strauss, F. Becker) and Austrians (H. Magenheimer, E. Topitsch) that argue that Stalin was indeed preparing its own offensive against Germany, some claiming it would occur also on 1941, under a presented plan from Zhukov, quoting original soviet documents.
He could done much more than he did, short of a preemptive attack that would be a disaster, as Zhukov later admitted, since his plan had flaws.

Well, the debate was fun, even if it could be more without the sarcasm. Thank you.

Trading

It seems that you know Stalin better than Stalin himself.  

I would like to see where I have said something like this. I'm waiting for my quote or your apologies, you choose.

Nobody cares about their share neither in the government nor in the parliament. The important thing is that is actually being done by the government. Now they're putting pressure against journalists, presidential candidates and opposition parties.

I'm rolling on the floor because of laughing, who cares about elections or share?   They are in the "government" and parliament now, that's enough. It's not a democracy, if you forgot about that.

Share is irrelevant, because lesser number of seats could be easily compensated using physical violence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKMVFtPsFI

right in the parliament.

One MP is able to cast five votes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pDn0KMaFNE

Presidential candidates could be beaten right beside the building of TV station:



Opposition parties could be removed from the parliament:

http://rian.com.ua/analytics/20140506/347378670.html

You can use any term whatever you like, but it's a fascism. NSDAP did the same in 1933.

I've said what I said. You'll be surprised, but I don't care how and who would think while reading this message. I'm not a presidential candidate, and we are not participants of the TV show. And you are wrong when saying something like this:

Let me guess, you're not very good at playing chess? You shouldn't think so narrowly when it comes to managing a state. What makes you think that he didn't believe the received information? Of course he believed, but he couldn't do anything.

• If USSR would have made the first move, then Hitler would have an ideological advantage. This is very important. Then he would be able to sign an agreement on mutual assistance with US or anybody else and this would strengthen his positions.
• If the troops would be deployed near the border, this would be interpreted as preparation for the invasion, giving the same ideological advantage.

You will be surprised, but we see the same situation right now. Obama along with his puppets would like very much to see, how Russia occupies Ukraine. They are continuously put the blame on Putin for invasion to east regions, troops near the border, etc. They're are using fake evidences, old photos as the "proofs" and attacking own troops in the friedly fire.

Similar things were seen on the western soviet borders in 1940-1941:

http://podvig.gpk.gov.by/article/history_border_services/border_on_the_eve_of_war/

So the best option is simply ignore all provocations, don't do anything and wait for the first move. Just like Putin does right now.

Of course he did all these things.

Yes, his forced industrialization has led to famine, from which many people have died.
Yes, a lot of stupid things with the elimination of personnel was done. Such as Vavilov, for example.
Yes, a lot of people were suffered from the repressions because of false denunciations.

So what? On the contrary we see:

Without industrialization USSR would be incapable to fight with anyone, occupation of the entire european part of territory would require less than few weeks.
Without personnel cleanings a new revolution would have occurred.

As they say about managers "method is irrelevant, but the result is important". Are you disagree? Or, maybe, you would prefer to see an occupation of entire european part of USSR territory in the 40s? In the latter case I am sorry, but this is not an acceptable option.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bLcPzo6i8E

You said he had "serious reasons" and his measures were necessary, but well I'm going to take your word on that. But, have no doubts, everyone that reads you will think like me.
Necessary measures? He saw plots everywhere. Prepare for war with Germany? He decapitated the red army on 1937-1938. And contrary to the usual histories, the decimation didn't stop there. Many officers that had experience on the spanish civil war and the war with Japan of 1938-1939 were also removed. He was warned by many people. Sorge gave him the actually date of the German attack. He didn't believe anyone.

If you read this post carefully then you'll understand that it's not a justification, it's simply a description of things which some people are stubbornly refusing to notice. If you think that I'm biased then you need to know that a half of my ancestors died because of these repressions.

Before your post, a user posted some considerations explaining/justifying the Volyn massacre. I wrote that he was justifying the massacre of minorities. He deleted his post.
I wasn't expecting that you, Balthazar, an old member of the forum, would do the same about the crimes of Stalin. I wonder if you shouldn't review your post. Sometimes we get carry on by an argument and write something that we really didn't want. I'm not even going to go with you to that debate, even if it's a period of History that interest me. I'm not Russian or Ukrainian and, as a human being and citizen of the world, I'm ashamed of both those crimes.
But see as you clean the blame from the russian people, even if it was the central Government supported by the same russian people (that carry those criminal orders of a Georgian, ok, but that is a detail) the responsible from those crimes. It's like saying the Germans that obeyed all the criminal orders had no responsibility, because Hitler was an Austrian. But you have no problem to blame all the Ukrainians for crimes committed by armed groups not coordinated by any Ukrainian government (that didn't exist) during a time of nazi occupation.
Present Ukrainians and Russians are as responsible as me or any other human from what their parents did. Blame is not transferable to our sons.

I called the Svoboda a right wing party, I accept they are extremists, but I wouldn't put them in the same place of the right sector. Anyway, they got about 10% votes on the last elections. But you are passing judgement on the other 90% of the Ukrainian because of the views of this minority.
The Svododa has 5 elements on the Ukrainian Government that has 21 members, that is hardly a majority: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yatsenyuk_Government#Changes_to_composition
You didn't presented any evidence that the Ukrainian Government is fascist. But, of course, the Ukrainian are crazy for having a party like that in their Government.

In war, people die.

Neo-Nazi are quite spread across the globe, US included. You can even find Neo-Nazis in Africa 

It's the same in the US military.  While no documented study has been done, I'm going with the assumption that gangmembers and Neo-Nazi make for better soldiers than teenagers looking for tuition telief / uneducated youth who went with the military because it pays more than a McJoB.

Yarosh: Right Sector to guard voting stations in eastern Ukraine during elections

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yarosh-right-sector-to-guard-voting-stations-in-eastern-ukraine-during-elections-349016.html

lol.. what more do we need? The Neo-Nazis will ensure that all the votes will be cast for their candidate.

You have to forget about political correctness, it's the only way to save your life from remake of the Volyn massacre. We have to judge them for this. It doesn't matter how many thousands of years passed, because they're promoting these monsters as their heroes, they're doing it right now.

Firstly, the most of the government positions were obtained by ukrainians, jews, georgians and others. Russians was a minority in Stalin government., the most of the government positions were handled by ukrainians, jews, georgians and others. Russians was a minority in Stalin government.

And actually it's a complicated question. Unlike what the most of western history textbooks say, Stalin wasn't a counterpart of Hitler or Shukhveych. Of course, he acted tough and committed crimes. But as opposed to burning Jews and Volyn massacre, he had a serious reasons to do that.

The main reasons:

• He had to prevent another coup d'état. Despite the Lenin's death, ideas of permanent world revolution by Trotsky and Bukharin still had a great support in the party. Stalin had to to something with it, because these members of party lived for the sake of the revolution and were ready to do everything for the the revolution. Country wouldn't survive after another revolution, so these cleanings were necessary.
• I don't think that Hitler's goals in the east were a secret. Stalin certainly had the opportunity to read Mein Kampf, so it was very clear that war was inevitable. At that time the country had an agrarian economy, which was more than 50 years behind in the development. While Germany, UK and US have completed the industrialization a long time ago. It was urgently required to catch up on this gap, otherwise there was a risk to lose the war and then live under occupation.

Unfortunately, in such circumstances, there was a great opportunity to realize the personal ambitions and vendettas, what some of the leaders, including Stalin himself, have done. And as the result, Stalin was the perfect scapegoat for Khrushchev, Yezhov, Beria and other members of the government. In fact a crimes, which Khrushchev has committed, was one of the reasons for the transfer of Crimea to Ukraine. It was a some kind of bribe to get forgiveness for what he had done.

There is no difference between Right Sector and Svoboda party, these parties have identical structure, ideology and set of "heroes". The Svoboda party isn't simply another right-wing party, they're open fascists and it's a fact. This could be proven by quting their rhetoric or EU parliamentary resolution 2012/2889.


A key members of the new "government" are members of Svoboda party. Do you really need any other evidence? Lol, then you have to wake up.  

A quick recruiting video, if people are unsure of who the RightSector really is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP4Drl6KBdc