Topic: [Exchange] GRAVIEX Exchange: low fees, fast withdrawals, high security - page 10. (Read 38487 times)

[EN]

Details how Graviex bail on users.

As mentioned in previous posts, Graviex bail on me $1500.
The operation with account blocking and appropriation of my funds became the last link in the chain of events around 214 ARRR coins for which the withdrawal transaction was not carried out, TxID was not provided, moreover, throughout the dialogue with the stock exchange, Graviex technical support completely disclaims responsibility for this incident, blaming the coin developers for everything.

At the moment (07/23/2019) ARRR coins have not been sent, although the request for their withdrawal was sent before the so-called sanctions, so it cannot be part of these sanctions, respectively, it had to be processed anyway.

However, as will be clear from the chronology published below, non-compliance with its own user agreement (which contradicts the basic provisions of European law), for Graviex is quite acceptable and fully corresponds to their manner of conducting work using unscrupulous methods.

Being engaged in trading since 2015, being familiar with more than one dozen stock exchanges and hundreds of personnel people, I did not have any sense, without a significant reason, to give publicly publicized an event that, in itself, is mediocre in the world of cryptocurrencies.

Standard contact with technical support of any exchange, whether it be Graviex or any other trading platform, until this moment, always, sooner or later, led to the solution of the problem. As a matter of fact, if a coin cannot be withdrawn promptly, based on the current marketing situation in the market, in the future the deadlines no longer play any critical value.


In this case, the cause of the development of the conflict was the position of Graviex technical support, in which they immediately made it clear that they were not responsible for this situation. And as I mentioned earlier, the withdrawal of coins has not been made so far!

The attempt of Graviex technical support to present the situation with the withdrawal of ARRR coins as resolved, I consider untenable, because the implementation of any exchange is based on virtual accounts, and the final check whether the exchange can fully provide virtual numbers on its site with cryptocurrency funds can only be confirmed by actually crediting funds to another wallet confirmed by its owner.


Events in chronology.

On July 7, I made a standard request in support of Graviex, informing that the ARRR withdrawal transaction was not completed. To which he received an answer, which, now in the original, can be found in Graviex post:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.51767590

This was the first time in my practice, when I was so thoroughly informed about the technical component of the problem, and a number of conclusions could be drawn from the confused answer:
1. The ARRR wallet on Graviex in ONLINE status does not guarantee correct transactions. Tech support Graviex knows about this (as will be clear from the materials below, my case is not the first), but leaves the possibility for users to make questionable transactions.
2. An interesting second point, where Graviex hints that I could already get my coins (and hide this fact ?) and the funds could already be credited to my account, even considering the erroneous status (and without TxID ?), but...
3. ... due to the high confidentiality of the ARRR network, technical support Graviex cannot verify this.

Agree, such an answer makes you wonder. In addition, in the future, several members of the ARRR network (among them the developers) pointed out that paragraph 3 is a lie of Graviex technical support.


On July 8, "having waited a bit" - as Graviex tech support advised, I posted a post on the Graviex Discord channel with a description of the problem, a ticket number and an indication that I need TxID to solve the problem through ARRR dev coin.

In response to the post on the discord, Graviex technical support posted a practically identical answer to the one that Graviex technical support told me in personal correspondence for the created ticket, but with one difference — now Graviex technical support suggested that I myself contact the dev coin to "provide confirmation of the status of a successful transactions", or provide some similar capabilities (?).

That is, in fact they sent me to look for truth to the developer of the ARRR coin without a transaction ID (?)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZAlQLjDd1nDs5UgstSBzQesSKbwXzXcp

Ie, in fact, one day before my publications on the forums, technical support of Graviex, personally, placed on the public channel a discord of his correspondence (which was reduced to a single answer given above). This part of the correspondence previously published by Graviex, according to clause 5.6, their UA turned out to be so important that it was quite suitable for a formal occasion, for withdrawing all my funds, ignoring the fact that this information, by the time of my publication, was no longer confidential.


Next, following step 3 of the Graviex technical support response, I turned to the developers of the ARRR coin on their discord channel, asking for help in understanding the situation. Immediately, I was answered about the nature of the problem.

Not for the sake of advertising, but only for an objective reflection of the situation - all the answers received in this situation from the participants of the ARRR channel were clear and understandable. But, unfortunately, the reverse side of the medal became clear, it became clear what support of Graviex is doing, namely trying to hide its own incompetence. Moreover, trying to hide this fact is very dirty, blaming the coin developers and not not recognizing its own any responsibility.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QBourdbbexkIJbTu4Qcy2CMHj60YinJF


Further, to my question about how to deal with this situation, I received a link to an post on the ARRR channel of June 27:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1apZT1gtOkJAe2zdZXEpz3XqQ0NN4wnoG


There are several conclusions from this announcement:
1. The ARRR team warned the public in advance, therefore, my further clarification of the reasons with the ARRR team did not make sense.
2. The ARRR team in the public channel openly claims that support for Graviex is lying when says that "there is no way to check this".
3. The number of likes under this announcement convincingly says that this is not a fake and that I am not the only one who has encountered such a situation.

Among other things, they gave me a link to the comment of one of the ARRR developers under Graviex tweet, which suggests that errors in work have been observed for some time, which in turn led to unpopular relationships between coin developers and technical support for Graviex.


https://drive.google.com/open?id=12nema4fsDrHbFQbUAlw9fo4PB5vad2sU


Next, I made another attempt to clarify the situation with the support of Graviex through the Discord channel, with a request to provide transactions ID:

Graveix technical support response was such that "they only have the data that the ARRR developers provided them"

drive.google.com/open?id=1eD24TGFnCsA8CBYqEXEgkbyr2kGVrjdC




From this point on, it became clear that the situation had finally reached a dead end. What data the ARRR developers should have provided with technical support for Graviex is unknown, since I successfully conducted ARRR transactions before the incident, and one transaction after was also successfully completed. In all cases, a transaction ID has been provided.

Further, an unknown person from the ARRR community joined the dialogue, but who, to a certain extent, understood the situation, which is clear from his subsequent dialogue with technical support for Graviex:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VhO_PS9aOxLN2LwgM7WvlHFe05XujyoU

and next:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IGJgy2a7QRxPxid6m1FXY5G36JVzvoh8


At the end of our dialogue, I explained my position that I consider Graviex to be responsible for deposit / withdraw transactions that are performed within their trading platform (after all, clause 4.1 of their User Agreement, which Graviex technical support likes to refer to and lists the obligations of exchange, says this: To make all reasonable efforts to facilitate and ensure effective transactions between the Users.) - and that if they do not solve my problem, I will be forced to report this incident involving the withdrawal of their funds in all available media in multiple languages.

To which I received the following reply from Graviex technical support, where they once again sign in their incompetence, but at the same time there is no hint that they are going to be responsible for this situation in any way:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1C-fu6VWOpPHAf2GJVXVVCTCcmmMgmVqr


Further, technical support of Graviex for some reason publishes a part of its dialogue with the developers of the ARRR coin, however this dialogue only once again confirms the incompetence of technical support of Graviex. Far from every blockchain you can find information about a transaction through the wallet address, I think many users who are far from the subtleties of blockchain programming faced this feature.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VsZ1B-sq5X2QxqfHCZRkG8OdCsz2pmdl


Also, a part of my communication took place in the Graviex Telegram channel. In the process of communication, while continuing to adhere to the policy of accusing the developers of the ARRR coin, the representative of Graviex did not even hesitate to call them fraudsters.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1koejTSo8lwaYIZCqzWcztEpZ5YktXqeR

There is nothing more to add.


THE FINAL

The final part of our dialogue on the discord channel no longer makes much sense. Graviex technical support response, which I previously published and in which they refuse to bear responsibility for this incident shows the final attitude of technical support Graviex to problems of this kind.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1m7aXl2aeJOia6ka8VHGIgC2jWUbfb63i



In the context of the dialogue published above, it becomes clear that, regardless of the results of solving this problem, together with the support of the ARRR coin developers, whom they, moreover, call fraudsters, Graviex is in no way going to take responsibility for this issue, namely replenish lost funds in case of unsuccessful outcome. Those. the message that Graviex is "waiting for their answer" says only one thing - what will happen next "as lucky". Therefore, this message no longer has any value.


On July 9, after waiting another day, I posted information about the incident on the forums.

On the same day, the support of Graviex, without sending the ARRR coins to the address specified in the translation, took away all my funds that were in the accounts of the exchange and blocked the account.

On July 10, representatives of Graviex posted on the forums information about account blocking under the pretext of so-called sanctions, while keeping silent about the fact that funds in the amount of 214 ARRR coins were not sent, although the request for their withdrawal was sent even before the sanctions and, accordingly, it should have been processed in accordance with their own user agreement. However, apparently, even such a trifle as 214 ARRR coins seemed not superfluous for Graviex.


Separately on sanctions:

It is necessary to understand that the very motivation of Graviex technical support with the indication of clause 5.6 of user agreements (this clause provides for maximum penalties) as a reason for withdrawing my funds is devoid of meaning and rationale, since the information I partially published on July 9, 2019 about correspondence with the support of Graviex, at the time of posting on the forums, has already ceased to be confidential, after its publication by Graviex himself on a public channel a day earlier - July 8, 2019

This is easily verified by comparing the pictures that Graviex himself published in his post of June 10 - and my pictures published above, in this post. Or directly check the publication from 08.07.2019 on the Graviex channel:
https://discordapp.com/channels/411082549016920065/411082549574631435


CONCLUSIONS

1. Obvious incompetence of Graviex technical support in ensuring the transaction of the ARRR coin.
2. Categorical failure to take responsibility for their own incompetence and the associated consequences.
3. Technical support Graviex is ready to use any unscrupulous methods to justify and conceal both its own incompetence and these very methods: Right up to the accusation of the developers of the coin of fraud; Up to blatant blackmail; Up to steal someone else's money.


RESULTS

- After 15 days (at the time of publication of the post), ARRR coins were not sent, Graviex Exchange did not fulfill its obligations.
- The funds belonging to me were seized under a false pretext. This is an outright fraud.


NEXT STEPS

I was asked several times whether I really would go to court for $ 1,500? Now we can say one thing - of course, this issue needs to be resolved in a legal plane, in addition to the information one. Obviously, preparing a lawsuit will take time. When it is prepared, I will publish the text, registration number, etc.

One of the users on the ARRR channel immediately offhand pointed to several violated legal moments (in part, I have already indicated some of them in this post):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cxSdjR38IQeo0u3JF3SpJCX1YGz01pDU


In the future I will inform about everything as new information appears.

ANN BTT-Project details-Website

Welcome to trade:
Graviex BTC Market
Graviex ETH Market

ANN BTT-Project details-Website

Welcome to trade:
Graviex BTC Market
Graviex ETH Market

ANN BTT-Project details-Website

Welcome to trade:
Graviex BTC Market

Thanks for the answer, looks like there's more to this if i dig deeper. For now i will just watch from the distance because i lack the skills to validate if this is because of the the ARRR code. Let's hope someone will audit that.

Thank you friend for teaching me how to breathe properly

Maybe my presentation looks somewhat nervous, but this is only because I wanted to post the announcement as soon as possible.
The situation is not as simple as it might seem at first glance. Events did not develop immediately. I am not the first day in cryptocurrency trading, and I’m not nervous without a good reason. Now money is lost and there is only one task, to tell about this situation in detail. But due to the fact that there is a lot of material, I don’t get it quickly. Probably from Monday.

And on your question - no, they still called the developers of ARRR scammers - and not somewhere else, but in the public channel Telegram
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1t-kiifJGmLWatb_5JpGleXZ4gwsm-62z

As for my communication with the developers, its volume is very large. To begin with, the ARRR developers immediately gave me a link to the following announcement on Discord:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FjrJ3YSqrnDJ52-8YdG-oZmFeKqdcF5B

It will be useful to pay attention to the number of likes under the announcement. Now, periodically, Graviex will send bots to form a positive public opinion (like the one before your post). But the number of likes under the post on the channel ARRR speaks for itself.

Did you read their answer? Take a deep breath and try to read it again, they didn't say anything about ARRR coin devs being fraud... I understand if you are angry about the lost funds but it sounds like you should first approach the coin developers for answers.

I was expecting something like that.
With regret, I have to admit that the Graviex Exchange has plunged into a banal financially-oriented cybercrime! Instead of returning the withdrawn funds (214 ARRR coins), Graviex blocked my account and seized funds of about $ 1,500 at the current rate, which the exchange itself admitted by posting appropriate posts on the resources:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2352780.800
and
https://forum.bits.media/index.php?/topic/71440-graviex-%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%B8-%D0%B1%D1%8B%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%B0/&do=findComment&comment=1822068

To date, in order to avoid deleting or changing these posts, I spent this morning on preserving their legally certified copies for further proceedings in court.

As for all aspects of communication, with all participants of this incident (technical support Graviex, ARRR coin developers), they were also saved in full, but due to their larger number, they will be laid out for the public to evaluate in parts. According to them it will be possible to restore the chronology and the essence of the development of the conflict, as well as the opinion on this incident from the developers of the ARRR coin.
In addition, it will be possible to compare the nature of the attitude to the problem from the technical support of Graviex during the proceedings, where they did not hesitate to declare that the developers of the ARRR coin are fraudsters (the corresponding screenshots are also notarized in case of their removal from the Telegram channel).

Initially, I also saw the solution of this conflict in mutual movement towards each other - Graviex returns the funds to the account, and I, in turn, delete the posts and inform the public about the resolution of the conflict. However, further criminal behavior on the part of Gravks the theft of my funds, and even demanding an apology (??), which by any standards Graviex should bring to me, closes the possibility of further dialogue, in view of the inadequate position of Graviex. Apparently, Graviex will thus intimidate users in order to avoid publicizing such conflicts related to the loss of funds in user accounts - i.e. if you lost your money, be silent, otherwise you will lose more. The calculation is primitive and clear.

In this case, Graviex somewhat overestimated my attitude to the stolen funds. Now I am preparing material on this conflict with all the details, including in the legal plane. Public opinion on this fact will be fully formed in all information channels.

Graviex administration confirms the fact you addressed the exchange support to resolve the issue of non-crediting of an amount you sent from Graviex. We have conducted the internal investigation and found out the following:

⁃ From your first request to the support you have been provided with the most detailed description of special aspects we faced regarding the work of  ARRR (Piratechain) wallet.




⁃ The next day you were informed that we were having consultations with ARRR developers in order to elaborate the way of resolving your issue (and all issues of this kind)



  ⁃ You did ignore that message and without waiting for resolution of your issue you laid your accusations against Graviex in a number of public media. You intentionally lifted the support responses out of the context, manipulated the public opinion to draw their attention but you failed.



⁃ Only today (a few hours ago) the coin developer provided a resolution for your issue. We have conducted the recommended checking and glad to inform that we confirmed your transaction had failed, and the amount you claimed has been refunded on your account.



We’d like to notice that the way of pressure, blackmailing, and your manipulation of public opinion, that you chose, brought you to your violation of points 5.6. and 6.1 of the User Agreement https://graviex.net/documents/user-agreement. In view of that fact we will have to lock your access to your account for the period of 6 months. However, in accordance with point 6.4. you can avoid sanctions if you address the Service Administration and submit your public apologies (along with deleting all your claims with false accusations).

[EN]

Be careful!
Graviex bail on me at 214 ARRR, they blame the coin developer for everything.
Now Gravex bail on $ 1500, depriving me of access to my funds through account lockout. (edited July 11, 2019)

When performing an ARRR (Pirate) coin withdrawal transaction, Gravex returned an Error message, and the funds were not sent to the recipient and were not returned to my account, and besides the Transaction ID was not provided.
It would seem that this is just one of many such situations, which, usually operatively or not very much, was solved by the support service.

However, this time Graviex support service responded with a long letter listing the reasons why it could happen this way and the general essence of which was that: "Your coins may have gone or maybe not. Due to the high confidentiality of the ARRR network, our technical command is unable to verify transaction details."

Later, when I addressed to the Discord, I received more explanations of this kind (channel link: https://discordapp.com/channels/411082549016920065/411082549574631435):
- We have no way to get TxID (??)
- Contact the ARRR coin development team (??)
- We are only responsible for the operations associated with the exchange on the exchange (!!)
I want to note that at the time of sending and at the time of creating this post, the ARRR wallet was not disabled and had the ONLINE status.

Following the advice of Graviex support, I turned to the developers of the ARRR coin using the appropriate Discord chanel, where I described my problem with a request to help solve it. To which I received the answer that Gravex support is lying to me and that sending me to the developers of the ARRR coin without providing TxID is an absurd proposal.
In addition, the developers of ARRR indicated that I was not the only one who had problems with the Deposit / Withdrawal on the Gravex exchange and gave a link to the announcement (dated 06.27.2019) with a call not to use Graviex, since in recent times, many messages have been received from users that Graviex did not credit user deposits or failed to complete the withdrawal, claiming that they did, but "there is no way to verify this" and that in turn is not true.
Link to the ARRR announcement (Post a little higher, the first of June 27): https://discordapp.com/channels/512188534111862784/512188534111862786/593781079945510942

From myself I want to say that for 4 years of trading on different exchanges, it was the first time I encountered a situation where some exchange refuses to take responsibility for errors related to the Deposit / Withdrawal operations on its trading platform.
If you are working with this exchange, be prepared for the fact that at any time Gravex Exchange can deny responsibility for the fact that your funds were lost at the time of the Deposit / Withdrawal, with explanations that this is not their problem!

Screenshots:
Error on the Marketplace
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ykGx-HVLgEiaf7lJy7585RD8hdgMYXj9

Correspondence with Graviex support
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Ic-pMg9n_CGnwB3EThrzS3C7jRlUbn3w

------------------------------------------------

[RU]

Бyдьтe ocтopoжны!
Meня Graviex кинyл нa 214 ARRR, вo вceм винят paзpaбoтчикa мoнeты.
Teпepь Гpaвeкc кинyл мeня нa 1500$, лишив мeня дocтyпa к мoим cpeдcтвaм чepeз блoкиpoвкy aккayнтa. (измeнeнo 11.07.2019)

Пpи выпoлнeнии тpaнзaкции вывoдa мoнeты ARRR (Pirate) биpжa Graviex вepнyлa cooбщeниe oб oшибкe, пpи этoм cpeдcтвa нe были oтпpaвлeны пoлyчaтeлю и нe были вoзвpaщeны нa мoй cчeт, и в дoвepшeниe, ID тpaнзaкции нe был пpeдocтaвлeн.
Кaзaлocь бы, этo вceгo лишь oднa из мнoгиx пoдoбныx cитyaций, кoтopaя, oбычнo oпepaтивнo или нe oчeнь, peшaлacь cлyжбoй пoддepжки.

Oднaкo, нa этoт paз cлyжбa пoддepжки Graviex oтвeтилa длинным пиcьмoм c пepeчиcлeниeм пpичин, пoчeмy тaк тaк мoглo пoлyчитьcя и oбщaя cyть кoтopoгo cвoдилacь к тoмy, чтo: "Baши мoнeты мoжeт быть yшли a мoжeт и нeт. Из-зa выcoкoй кoнфидeнциaльнocти ceти ARRR нaшa тexничecкaя кoмaндa нe имeeт вoзмoжнocти пpoвepить дeтaли тpaнзaкций."

Пoзжe, пpи oбpaщeнии в диcкopд, я пoлyчил eщe oбъяcнeния тaкoгo poдa (ccылкa нa кaнaл: https://discordapp.com/channels/411082549016920065/411082549574631435):
- У нac нeт cпocoбoв, чтoбы пoлyчить TxID (??)
- Oбpaтитecь в кoмaндy paзpaбoтки мoнeты ARRR (??)
- Mы нeceм oтвeтcтвeннocть тoлькo зa oпepaции cвязaнныe c oбмeнoм нa биpжe (!!)
xoчy зaмeтить, чтo и нa мoмeнт oтпpaвки и нa мoмeнт coздaния дaннoгo пocтa кoшeлeк ARRR нe был oтключeн и имeл cтaтyc ONLINE

Пo coвeтy oт тex пoддepжки Graviex я oбpaтилcя нa диcкopд paзpaбoтчикoв мoнeты ARRR, гдe oпиcaл cвoю пpoблeмy c пpocьбoй пoмoчь ee peшить. Ha чтo мнoю был пoлyчeн oтвeт, чтo мнe лгyт в тex пoддepжкe Graviex и чтo пocылaть мeня к paзpaбoтчикaм мoнeты ARRR нe пpeдocтaвив TxID, являeтcя aбcypдным пpeдлoжeниeм.
Кpoмe тoгo, paзpaбoтчики ARRR yкaзaли, чтo я нe eдинcтвeнный, y кoгo были пpoблeмы c ввoдoм/вывoдoм нa биpжe Graviex и дaли ccылкy нa aнoнc в дocкopдe oт 27.06.2019 c пpизывoм нe иcпoльзoвaть Graviex, т.к. в пocлeдниe вpeмя былo пoлyчeнo мнoгo cooбщeний oт пoльзoвaтeлeй o тoм, чтo Graviex нe зaчиcлил дeпoзиты пoльзoвaтeлeй или нe выпoлнили вывoд, yтвepждaя, чтo oни этo cдeлaли, нo «нeт cпocoбa пpoвepить этo» и чтo в cвoю oчepeдь нe cooтвeтcтвyeт дeйcтвитeльнocти.
Ccылкa нa aнoнc ARRR (Пocт нeмнoгo вышe, пepвый oт 27 июня): https://discordapp.com/channels/512188534111862784/512188534111862786/593781079945510942

Oт ceбя xoчy cкaзaть, чтo зa 4 гoдa тpeйдингa нa paзныx биpжax, этo был пepвый paз, кoгдa я cтoлкнyлcя cитyaциeй, кoгдa кaкaя тo биpжa oткaзывaeтcя бpaть нa ceбя oтвeтcтвeннocть зa oшибки cвязaнныe c oпepaциями ввoдa/вывoдa нa cвoeй тopгoвoй плoщaдкe.
Ecли вы paбoтaeтe c этoй биpжeй, бyдтe гoтoвы к тoмy, чтo в любoй мoмeнт биpжa Graviex мoжeт cнять c ceбя oтвeтcтвeннocть, зa тo, чтo вaши cpeдcтвa были пoтepяны пpи выпoлнeнии oпepaций ввoдa/вывoдa, c oбъяcнeниями, чтo этo нe являeтcя иx пpoблeмoй!

Cнимки экpaнoв:
Oшибкa нa тopгoвoй плoщaдкe
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ykGx-HVLgEiaf7lJy7585RD8hdgMYXj9

Пepeвoд пepeпиcки c caппopтoм Graviex (opигинaл вышe, в aнглийcкoй ceкции)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1d5Km-JHaRZ-z1M474X6pxM7sqTiB-2i4

ANN BTT-Project details-Website

Welcome to trade:
Graviex BTC Market
Graviex USDT Market
Graviex ETH Market

You can apply for a listing and we will definitely distribute it in the near future.

ANN BTT-Project details-Website

Welcome to trade:
Graviex BTC Market
Graviex ETH Market

Another great feature from Graviex. As expected to the Gravio team, always working hard for their exchange.
I would also suggest listing DVT (Devault), it's a pure POW coin with no ICO and premine.
Their ann thread: HERE
More coins getting listed means a great possibility for gaining more users/traders and more dividends for us GIO Holders. 

We are glad to inform about a new long awaited option implemented in BTC withdrawals. Check the box "Accelerate" and your transaction will get confirmed in the next two blocks despite of any load of BTC pool.🤑

ANN BTT-Project details-Website

Welcome to trade:
Graviex BTC Market
Graviex ETH Market

ANN BTT-Project details-Website

Welcome to trade:
Graviex BTC Market
Graviex ETH Market

Edited.

Site was down, now back up.

KYC not required

Well low fees and  fast withdrawals are rly good but what other pros can you name? These can be done everywhere. What about security? How can I be sure if your platform is secure enough? I wanna to try it but have no idea if KYC is needed. (I'm not US citizen)