and yes, I changed "you" to "your" before I sent it.
Topic: [EXPIRED] [BOUNTY] 1000 BTC for getting a major business to accept Bitcoin - page 2. (Read 9415 times)
October 10, 2011, 01:30:56 AM
and yes, I changed "you" to "your" before I sent it.
October 09, 2011, 01:14:30 PM
A Fortune 500 can easily integrate Bitcoin themselves and doesn't need a third party payment processor.
They still have the hurdle of having a competent developer put this sort of thing together of course, just like anybody else. If they are given tools that they don't have to build themselves, they're that much closer to their goal.
October 09, 2011, 12:50:56 PM
The larger issue still remains.
The advantage of bitcoin is that there is no counterparty risk. For a business that means no risk of customer fraud, chargebacks, etc.
If a very large business uses bitpay then they are trading one form of counterparty risk (chargeback) with another (bitpay gets hacked, robbed, goes bankrupt, owers run away with the coins).
Why would a business accept that risk? For what benefit?
The advantage of bitcoin is that there is no counterparty risk. For a business that means no risk of customer fraud, chargebacks, etc.
If a very large business uses bitpay then they are trading one form of counterparty risk (chargeback) with another (bitpay gets hacked, robbed, goes bankrupt, owers run away with the coins).
Why would a business accept that risk? For what benefit?
I believe Bitpay typically has only 1 day's worth of sales in their system. So such risk is very limited. They're not going to be holding two fiscal quarters of revenue =)
October 09, 2011, 10:02:11 AM
A Fortune 500 can easily integrate Bitcoin themselves and doesn't need a third party payment processor.
October 08, 2011, 09:58:54 PM
Why would a business accept that risk? For what benefit?
What kind of accountability would Bit Pay have in worst case scenarios? I honestly don't know if they state this or not.
October 08, 2011, 09:53:36 PM
The larger issue still remains.
The advantage of bitcoin is that there is no counterparty risk. For a business that means no risk of customer fraud, chargebacks, etc.
If a very large business uses bitpay then they are trading one form of counterparty risk (chargeback) with another (bitpay gets hacked, robbed, goes bankrupt, owers run away with the coins).
Why would a business accept that risk? For what benefit?
The advantage of bitcoin is that there is no counterparty risk. For a business that means no risk of customer fraud, chargebacks, etc.
If a very large business uses bitpay then they are trading one form of counterparty risk (chargeback) with another (bitpay gets hacked, robbed, goes bankrupt, owers run away with the coins).
Why would a business accept that risk? For what benefit?
October 08, 2011, 09:44:35 PM
The reality is bitcoin simply isn't ready for enterprise grade integration.
I fully agree. Nobody should try to approach Fortune 500 companies right now. But, this contest is only for businesses with revenues of $50 million. There are many businesses of this size, typically considered "medium size," and I think a company like Bit-pay could quite easily handle them. They're extremely competent.
October 08, 2011, 09:29:06 PM
sirius, would a non-profit qualify? Kiva.org seems interested.
I missed that, Kiva would be pretty big, I can't wait to see a Bitcoin Accepted Here button on that site.
October 08, 2011, 02:54:14 PM
Yes, bit-pay is the only acceptable way of doing it. Proposing Bitcoin to a big company without mentioning bit-pay would never work (also, don't forget that bit-pay is limited to US only).
That just opens up another issue. The company now has to trust bitpay. Nothing wrong w/ bitpay but concincing a fortune 500 company to trust millions of dollars in transactions with a tiny upstart is a hard sell.
The reality is bitcoin simply isn't ready for enterprise grade integration. It will happen but it won't happen overnight. Even if a company trusted bitpay how do they get paid. Bitpay uses Mt Gox behind the scenese and Mt Gox has daily withdrawal limits. Limits that would utterly kill a major company cashflow.
I am sure it will happen eventually. Enterprise grade tools for protecting wallet files, providing realtime arbitrage w/ multiple exchanges and automating millions of dollars in fund transfers will eventually exist they simply don't exist today.
It is one thing to ask newegg (to use an example) hey accept bitcoin. It is another to ask them to "hey accept bitcoin and build a complete enterprise back end capable of mitigating currency risk without introducing counterparty risk, avoid employee fraud/theft, and manage cashflow). Essentially it is a non-trivial task.
October 05, 2011, 11:11:44 PM
sirius, would a non-profit qualify? Kiva.org seems interested.
They don't actually sell anything so they wouldn't qualify for this bounty. However, I'd be happy to offer a separate 500 BTC bounty if they accept BTC deposits and withdrawals to/from USD accounts.
October 05, 2011, 06:37:22 PM
I doubt that any business with 100 millions USD of revenue would accept bitcoins right now. Do you realize how much a 1% shift in Bitcoin price (which happens everyday) would affect the company? Million dollar companies don't play the roulette with their revenues. Every dollar is accounted for.
It's important for people to understand that exchange rate risk has been virtually eliminated by at least one company, Bit-pay.com. They are an ideal candidate to provide the merchant solution for any sizable business. They enable the business to receive the Bitcoins automatically converted into USD instantly.
Yes, bit-pay is the only acceptable way of doing it. Proposing Bitcoin to a big company without mentioning bit-pay would never work (also, don't forget that bit-pay is limited to US only).
October 05, 2011, 04:09:28 PM
Agreed, and that needs to change. So, what we need is real software that meets all the requirements (audit, feature, safety, etc.) of the customers. Real software that correctly addresses the block reorg issues, etc. that you brought up, whether open source or not. We will need someone like you (2112), who obviously seems to know what sort of testing and validation is required, to help out in that area. I have a lead for a large customer (buddy is one of the VPs) that I am working on. I will keep everyone posted on the questions they ask me. Even if they don't sign on it will be very interesting to go through the process and see exactly where all the roadblocks are.
October 05, 2011, 03:50:29 PM
OK, this thread because of my involvement had devolved into something bad. I apologize.
I want to repeat my quote from Gavin Andresen's speech:
we don't much care if you don't approve of the software we write
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koIq58UoNfE
and about 1:25 into the clip.
Please ponder about this a little bit. All I was trying to say is the attitude like that is preventing the smart businesses from getting involved in bitcoin.
I want to repeat my quote from Gavin Andresen's speech:
we don't much care if you don't approve of the software we write
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koIq58UoNfE
and about 1:25 into the clip.
Please ponder about this a little bit. All I was trying to say is the attitude like that is preventing the smart businesses from getting involved in bitcoin.
October 05, 2011, 01:53:49 PM
It's pretty hard to scam somebody by releasing work as open source.
Actually the opposite is true. Open source makes it extremely easy to scam the unsuspecting by making subtle changes.MKS Software NuTCRACKER is an example response to the popularity of the scams rooted in subtle modifications of the OSS. They pretty much sell their premim versions of telnet, ftp, etc. but unlike their competitors test that thoroughly.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you that forking things will cure all the problems. Finance is probably the third (after aerospace and healthcare) in terms of strict testing and liability requirements.
You are doing a lot of excellent design. But somehow you convinced yourself that willfull disregard for principles of accounting is a virtue.
October 05, 2011, 11:38:32 AM
I doubt that any business with 100 millions USD of revenue would accept bitcoins right now. Do you realize how much a 1% shift in Bitcoin price (which happens everyday) would affect the company? Million dollar companies don't play the roulette with their revenues. Every dollar is accounted for.
It's important for people to understand that exchange rate risk has been virtually eliminated by at least one company, Bit-pay.com. They are an ideal candidate to provide the merchant solution for any sizable business. They enable the business to receive the Bitcoins automatically converted into USD instantly.
Some might say, "well then what's the point of accepting btc at all?" And the answer of course is that this is a gradual process. We need to help companies step by step. Show them that bitcoins aren't scary. After they are used to the Bitcoin world, some will opt to keep a portion of earnings as Bitcoins. But again, this is is a gradual process.
Also, the most likely way someone can claim this bounty, is if someone has a personal/professional connection to a decision maker at a medium sized business. Who do you know? Who do they know? Set up a meeting and discuss. Describe the advantages of Bitcoins from a merchant perspective (no chargebacks, lower fees, acceptable from anyone anywhere - even Ivory Coast and Ukraine).
OP - thanks for setting up this ambitious bounty!
October 05, 2011, 11:34:36 AM
But I'm a sworn and licensed hunter of scammers. Thus your future product is of great interest to me. The fishy smell is alrady emanating from the blueprints.
This is an open source project, not a personal product. You are more than welcome to contribute your expertise to the "blueprints" at the Wiki, or fork yourself a copy of the source code at github. It's pretty hard to scam somebody by releasing work as open source.
October 05, 2011, 10:59:07 AM
2112 is one smart guy, he seems to know everything about everything! 2112, not everyone is as smart as you are. Most of us work in teams where each person is an expert at one thing. Casascius admits he does not know everything about everything like you do - that is why he is forming a team to work on the project. You have made one point: a real POS system will need to be better than what we have now. We all know this, so basically you have contributed exactly zero so far.
October 05, 2011, 10:58:05 AM
Oh hell, give me a break. No need to be such a jerk. If I produce something that sucks, feel free to criticize it. But you are pre-criticizing what you think I might produce if I produced it. Are you a licensed fortune teller? I didn't think so. So you can zip it.
No, I'm not a fortune teller. But I'm a sworn and licensed hunter of scammers. Thus your future product is of great interest to me. The fishy smell is alrady emanating from the blueprints. The whole haz-mat team may be required when the actual product launches.Or you can just take an accounting class.
It is your choice.
October 05, 2011, 10:47:08 AM
Neither. I have also never performed heart surgery. I'm a software engineer, not an accountant, and not a heart surgeon.
You should have taken at least basic accounting class before trying to sling the accounting software. Any self respecting professional will ask you questions about how you tested it. I'm thinking that you will have answers of the type: "positive energy", "only love" & "chain reorganizations will never happen, right guys?" This is very sad but common situation in the bitcoin millieu: a programmer wants to design financial software but is proud of not knowing how to do proper accounting.Oh hell, give me a break. No need to be such a jerk. If I produce something that sucks, feel free to criticize it. But you are pre-criticizing what you think I might produce if I produced it. Are you a licensed fortune teller? I didn't think so. So you can zip it.
October 05, 2011, 10:39:43 AM
Neither. I have also never performed heart surgery. I'm a software engineer, not an accountant, and not a heart surgeon.
Yeah, this is currently a problem in the USA. Anyone can call themselves a "software engineer". Even to legally cut hair one has to obtain a proper "cosmetologist license" and show proficiency in disinfecting and delousing his tools of trade.You should have taken at least basic accounting class before trying to sling the accounting software. Any self respecting professional will ask you questions about how you tested it. I'm thinking that you will have answers of the type: "positive energy", "only love" & "chain reorganizations will never happen, right guys?" This is very sad but common situation in the bitcoin millieu: a programmer wants to design financial software but is proud of not knowing how to do proper accounting.
I think the liability laws in the USA are generally a problem. But in your particular case they will be just what required to teach you how to design and test software for accounting.
Take a few accounting classes before you write the software. It will be cheaper for you overall.
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