Explanation on Bitcoin Fees | Bitcointalksearch.org

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 20, 2023, 06:36:07 AM

So now does my cryptos are more secure on the Ledger or on an Exchange?

Although the best option would either be your own cold storage or a Passport hardware wallet, I would definitely still keep your coins on your Ledger over a centralized exchange.

I think the best way to approach this would be to initialize your Ledger, update it, and install the bitcoin app, all via Ledger Live as normal. Make sure you don't go anywhere near enabling Ledger Recover. Once you've done that, uninstall Ledger Live and use your Ledger exclusively via some open source third party software such as Electrum or Sparrow. Use one or more passphrases. Although not ideal, doing this reduces the risk from Ledger Recover to a minimum, and it is still far safer than using a centralized exchange.

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 20, 2023, 06:36:07 AM

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Trezor (and some other hardware wallets) has open source software, which means anyone can check exactly what it is doing inside.

Oh ok, i understand now, and i didn't know that before to buy it ...
But with the Hardware schematics and the open source firmware it's more easy for an hacker to find a breach, no?

I would say no. The open source concept has been around for decades, and it has proven to be a good solution. Since anyone can examine the code, it's easier to identify and fix bugs or security vulnerabilities. For example, the Linux operating system has become increasingly popular. Would you say that it is more or less secure than proprietary and closed-source software like Windows?

Quote from: maitre.spark on June 20, 2023, 06:36:07 AM

i heard that a lot of people have a Ledger Hardware Wallet ...

Yes, they do. Ledger has been one of the most popular hardware wallet choices for years. Things change… I have heard that many people today are opting for alternative solutions.

Quote from: maitre.spark on June 20, 2023, 06:36:07 AM

So now does my cryptos are more secure on the Ledger or on an Exchange?

It is kinda like trying to decide if you should keep your money in a safe that someone else might have access to, or give it to a stranger to hold onto. A tough choice.

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 19, 2023, 11:24:46 AM

I didn't know about this "recovery service", i am not registered into it.
What's the main problem with it?

I don't want to share how I feel about it and influence you when you think freely. I wanted to give the piece of information so that you can do your own diligence. You are now with the best bitcoin people and you will learn the good things very soon if you decide to stay with us for rest of your life 😉

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The topic is obsolete now since OP knows where he made mistakes in the calculation.

But do we still need something to Differentiate between transaction fee and withdrawal fee.

If someone have time and better Post formatting skills can create a dedicated topic between the difference which will serve as reference for someone who has confusion like OP.

ImThour

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hosseinimr93 explained perfectly. The fee which you paid was shown on the Exchange's User Interface, not in the Block explorer. The fee which is shown in the Block Explorer is the fee which is paid by Kraken for all the transactions in that particular batch. So, no need to contact them as they just charged you what they showed on the website. It's a pretty nominal fee though.

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 18, 2023, 01:12:38 PM

Good morning,
I'm new here, and new in the crypto world.

Earlier this year I opened an account with Kraken and bought some Bitcoins and some Etherums.
A few months ago I also bought a Ledger key (with $20 offered in bitcoin)

Since I made a first transfer of Bitcoins (for test) from my Kraken account to "Ledger Live"

Transfer n°1: 100€, Kraken Fee: 0.00020 BTC (about 5€), Arrived on "Ledger Live" Fee: 0.00019023 BTC (4,708€)
blockstream.info: SEGWIT FEE SAVINGS This transaction saved 27% on fees by upgrading to native SegWit-Bech32

Transfer n°2: 1900€, Kraken Fee: 0.00020 BTC (about 5€), Arrived on "Ledger Live" Fee: 0.00038385 BTC (9.282€)
blockstream.info: SEGWIT FEE SAVINGS This transaction saved 17% on fees by upgrading to native SegWit-Bech32

I claim my $20 of Bitcoin Offer: Arrived on "Ledger Live" €18.05 Fee: 0.00021581 BTC (€5.23)
blockstream.info: SEGWIT FEE SAVINGS This transaction saved 5% on fees by upgrading to native SegWit-Bech32

Do all these Fees seem normal for you?
But above all, why in Transaction n°2 I paid quazi double 0.00038385 BTC instead of 0.00020 BTC? (I have a screenshot that shows 0.00020 BTC of Fee before clicking on send in Kraken)

Should I contact Kraken, or there are other Fees added "after Kraken" in the transaction process ?

I don't understand.
Thank you.

There's been a tremendous rise in transaction fees some weeks ago. It happened due to NFT-minters attack. By now, the system has returned to acceptable fees. That attack also lowered the speed of transactions, most of them became very slow...

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 20, 2023, 06:36:07 AM

But with the Hardware schematics and the open source firmware it's more easy for an hacker to find a breach, no?

Open source simply means that the code is verifiable. If an attacker wants to create a scam version of the wallet for example, they do not need the original code, all they are going to do is design their scam version with the logo and name of the wallet and use their own malicious code, and so they can do this for an open or closed source wallet. Why an open source wallet is more secure is that you can verify the code of the wallet you downloaded or bought before using it.

Quote from: maitre.spark on June 20, 2023, 06:36:07 AM

But until now they never stole the cryptos on it, right? and there was never a problem with this?

People do not have to lose money through this service before you do what's right. It is a wrong way to store the seed phrase to your funds, and if something goes wrong in the future you'll regret why you didn't use a different wallet.

Quote from: maitre.spark on June 20, 2023, 06:36:07 AM

So now does my cryptos are more secure on the Ledger or on an Exchange?

Never use an exchange wallet to store your funds. This would not have even been a discussion before this recovery service was announced. In Ledger you have the keys to your funds and the seed phrase, and you don't have to opt in for their recovery service, so it is many times better than keeping funds in an exchange, but there are other recommended hardware wallets you can use instead, or just create your own air-gapped wallet.

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 19, 2023, 11:24:46 AM

Now i think 18.05€ it's because of the change between $ / €, 20$ -> 18.05€ ( i guess ).
I don't know who paid this associated €5.23 transaction fee. Probably Ledger or his partner.

I would point out that talking about fees in euros or dollars is pointless, given the exchange rate between these currencies and bitcoin fluctuates constantly. It is much more useful to talk about fees in terms of satoshis, or even better, satoshis per virtual byte, or sats/vbyte. This is how many sats in fees is being paid for each virtual byte of space the transaction takes up. This is the number which miners use to prioritize transactions, not the flat fee in any fiat currency.

I'd also point out that Trezor openly fund and cooperate with blockchain analysis, so their devices are a very poor replacement for Ledger.

maitre.spark

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At least it's open-source and if it had reproducible builds of the firmware (not sure at the moment if it has), you could check exactly and confidently what Trezor's code does and what not. Trezor even shows hardware schematics, parts lists and how the hardware is made. Try to find this at Ledger.

Quote

Trezor (and some other hardware wallets) has open source software, which means anyone can check exactly what it is doing inside.

Oh ok, i understand now, and i didn't know that before to buy it ...
But with the Hardware schematics and the open source firmware it's more easy for an hacker to find a breach, no?

Quote

You bought a hardware wallet with an opaque closed-source firmware. Ledger lied that your seed can't leave the secure element chip. Their paid recovery service funnels your seed through your online computer to three companies which then hold shards of your seed. It's closed-source firmware software that controls what the button presses do or not do. The secure element chip is not controlled by the Ledger NoNo's buttons, another microcontroller deals with the buttons and the display and commands the secure element. It's programmable and it's a black box, horray.

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According to Ledger, they claim nothing changes for you, and your private keys should be safe inside the device. But we have lost trust in them because they lied before.

So you tell me the private key can be extracted online by Ledger and i understand the problem.
But until now they never stole the cryptos on it, right? and there was never a problem with this?

i heard that a lot of people have a Ledger Hardware Wallet ...

So now does my cryptos are more secure on the Ledger or on an Exchange?

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 19, 2023, 03:42:27 PM

You bought a hardware wallet with an opaque closed-source firmware. Ledger lied that your seed can't leave the secure element chip. Their paid recovery service funnels your seed through your online computer to three companies which then hold shards of your seed. It's closed-source firmware software that controls what the button presses do or not do. The secure element chip is not controlled by the Ledger NoNo's buttons, another microcontroller deals with the buttons and the display and commands the secure element. It's programmable and it's a black box, horray.

Quote from: maitre.spark on June 19, 2023, 03:42:27 PM

Who knows what Trezor is doing inside

At least it's open-source and if it had reproducible builds of the firmware (not sure at the moment if it has), you could check exactly and confidently what Trezor's code does and what not. Trezor even shows hardware schematics, parts lists and how the hardware is made. Try to find this at Ledger.

Anyway, I digress already.

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 19, 2023, 03:42:27 PM

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Better you read this topic as it contains more information and has a read-worthy discussion- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ledger-recovery-send-your-encrypted-recovery-phrase-to-3rd-parties-entities-5452900
As a hardware wallet, offering recovery service is a stupid idea. It totally dismisses the idea of storing your private key safely. Well, I'm using Ledger and Safepal for a quite long time now.

Ok, i will read it when enough time.
But what about if u don't subscribe/register to this "recovery service"

According to Ledger, they claim nothing changes for you, and your private keys should be safe inside the device. But we have lost trust in them because they lied before.

Quote from: maitre.spark on June 19, 2023, 03:42:27 PM

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However, it's always better to use a secured and trusted one like Trezor. Who knows what Ledger is doing inside lol.

Who knows what Trezor is doing inside

Trezor (and some other hardware wallets) has open source software, which means anyone can check exactly what it is doing inside.

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Better you read this topic as it contains more information and has a read-worthy discussion- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ledger-recovery-send-your-encrypted-recovery-phrase-to-3rd-parties-entities-5452900
As a hardware wallet, offering recovery service is a stupid idea. It totally dismisses the idea of storing your private key safely. Well, I'm using Ledger and Safepal for a quite long time now.

Ok, i will read it when enough time.
But what about if u don't subscribe/register to this "recovery service"

Quote

However, it's always better to use a secured and trusted one like Trezor. Who knows what Ledger is doing inside lol.

Who knows what Trezor is doing inside

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 19, 2023, 11:24:46 AM

Ok, i have to read it.

I didn't know about this "recovery service", i am not registered into it.
What's the main problem with it?

Better you read this topic as it contains more information and has a read-worthy discussion- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ledger-recovery-send-your-encrypted-recovery-phrase-to-3rd-parties-entities-5452900
As a hardware wallet, offering recovery service is a stupid idea. It totally dismisses the idea of storing your private key safely. Well, I'm using Ledger and Safepal for a quite long time now. However, it's always better to use a secured and trusted one like Trezor. Who knows what Ledger is doing inside lol.

Quote from: maitre.spark on June 19, 2023, 11:24:46 AM

I don't know who paid this associated €5.23 transaction fee. Probably Ledger or his partner.

Since you have received this from Cashback, of course, Ledger is paying the fee and ensuring you the $20 cashback.

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It seems you are happy with the responses and like in those movies, everything ended happily but I have a bad news for you LOL
Let's not say it's a bad news but it's obviously not something which will make you comfortable. Feel free to give a read to Ledger recovery service (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ledger-recovery-service-5453531) topic. I am still working on burning my current Ledger wallet and post a picture.

Ok, i have to read it.

I didn't know about this "recovery service", i am not registered into it.
What's the main problem with it?

@Casdinyard

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When your 20 bucks free came into your wallet, you only saw 18.05, this is normal, you basically paid Kraken 2 bucks for the transaction, and the 5 euros you see in perhaps the transaction hash is not what you paid, but rather what Kraken paid for the transaction to process.

Now i think 18.05€ it's because of the change between $ / €, 20$ -> 18.05€ ( i guess ).
I don't know who paid this associated €5.23 transaction fee. Probably Ledger or his partner.

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They are normal, but they are not explained well by Kraken or by anyone. I don't think you need to contact them at all considering how this could easily be explained. I saw a couple guys here too explain this to you but let me put it in a language you could understand.

You got free 20 bucks from buying your ledger wallet, you installed kraken and you transferred bitcoins and ethereum to it too prior to buying the ledger wallet.
When your 20 bucks free came into your wallet, you only saw 18.05, this is normal, you basically paid Kraken 2 bucks for the transaction, and the 5 euros you see in perhaps the transaction hash is not what you paid, but rather what Kraken paid for the transaction to process. This payment goes towards the miners who facilitated your transaction, and is one way for them to profit from this industry besides mining for bitcoin. If you keep depositing money on Kraken, and then withdrawing them to your ledger wallet you'd keep seeing this 2 different transaction fees getting processed. This is normal as you basically bridged 2 different platforms.

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 19, 2023, 10:11:58 AM

Oh ok, i have a lot to learn, thank you very much for the explanation.

It seems you are happy with the responses and like in those movies, everything ended happily but I have a bad news for you LOL

Let's not say it's a bad news but it's obviously not something which will make you comfortable. Feel free to give a read to Ledger recovery service topic. I am still working on burning my current Ledger wallet and post a picture.

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@rat03gopoh

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The first piqued my curiosity, did I correctly understand that you bought Ledger HW for $20? What type is it?

No, 79€ + Delivery Costs + Cashback Promo of 20$ in bitcoins, sometime there is also free Delivery Cost offer but not bitcoins cashback.
It depend of the moment.

@LoyceV

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Ledger has (had?) a promo that gave a "cashback" after buying their product ($20 in Bitcoin).

Exactly, it was about 2 or 3 months ago maybe, it can come back...

@o_e_l_e_o

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No, it would not have worked.

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To receive bitcoin over lightning, you must first have regular bitcoin (which you now have in your Ledger), a lightning compatible wallet (which Ledger Live is not), and use those regular bitcoin to open a Lightning channel. This is something you can look in to for the future if you want, but you've done nothing wrong so far.

Oh ok, i have a lot to learn, thank you very much for the explanation.

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Quote from: rat03gopoh on June 18, 2023, 10:32:45 PM

Quote from: maitre.spark on June 18, 2023, 01:12:38 PM

A few months ago I also bought a Ledger key (with $20 offered in bitcoin)

The first piqued my curiosity, did I correctly understand that you bought Ledger HW for $20? What type is it?

Ledger has (had?) a promo that gave a "cashback" after buying their product ($20 in Bitcoin).

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 18, 2023, 06:57:09 PM

So i probably now understand that the fees i see in my https://www.ledger.com/ledger-live software is not the fee related to my transaction only.

That's what misled me. I feel so stupide now Cry

Sorry.

No need to apologize! Everyone starts somewhere.

The fee you see in Ledger Live is the fee Kraken paid to miners for the transaction which your withdrawal was part of. However, there were also 20+ other withdrawals part of the same transaction. So Kraken took 0.0002 BTC from you, 0.0002 BTC from everyone else, paid 0.00038385 BTC in transaction fees, and then pocketed the rest as profits for themselves.

Quote from: maitre.spark on June 18, 2023, 07:12:11 PM

Would it have worked in the same way ( with my ledger: https://shop.ledger.com/products/ledger-nano-s-plus ) if i had chosen "Bitcoin (Lightning Network)" in place of "Bitcoin Network" on Kraken before to send? or not?

No, it would not have worked. The Lightning Network is what is known as a second layer, and is built on top of bitcoin. To receive bitcoin over lightning, you must first have regular bitcoin (which you now have in your Ledger), a lightning compatible wallet (which Ledger Live is not), and use those regular bitcoin to open a Lightning channel. This is something you can look in to for the future if you want, but you've done nothing wrong so far.

The reason you paid such a high fee is because all centralized exchanges like Kraken charge high fees.

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Quote from: maitre.spark on June 18, 2023, 01:12:38 PM

A few months ago I also bought a Ledger key (with $20 offered in bitcoin)

The first piqued my curiosity, did I correctly understand that you bought Ledger HW for $20? What type is it?

Quote from: maitre.spark on June 18, 2023, 07:12:11 PM

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Bitcoin 0.0002 BTC 0.0005 BTC
Bitcoin (Lightning Network) FREE 0.00001 BTC

I can't check it now, because I have only Ethereum on kraken, but i think i had the choice between Bitcoin Network and Bitcoin (Lightning Network) before to send my bitcoins.

Oh my God, does it mean i paid fees for Nothing?
I'm very noob ...

What do you mean nothing?
0.00001 is the minimum amount to withdraw if you have the LN option and it is free of charge, but it usually has a maximum amount limit per withdrawal.

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