Topic: Fed on brink of fifth(?) round of quantitative easing - page 4. (Read 2448 times)

as though that's ever happened before in the united states. i doubt it.

typically UBI doesn't come with any type of restrictions on how it could be used. so someone could probably even take their government pension and buy bitcoin with it sometimes. 

IKR? It's called degree inflation.

I believe in the concept of scarcity (because scarcity gives value, assuming there's sufficient demand), not printing tons of worthless papers (whether we're talking about fiat currency or university degrees).

Most people don't get it, though... they believe abundance is a good thing.

Abundance is a good thing in food and energy (if we want them to be cheap & affordable), nowhere else.

If you (as an employer) also want cheap & affordable workers (they can be considered a commodity too), then it totally makes sense to hyperinflate university degrees.

Not just in Ireland.

Becoming a plumber is not very prestigious, but besides that, it's also a very hard job... sometimes you have to deal with pipes full of shit.

Then better be prepared to eat bugs... they'll tell you there's a climate/food crisis going on, so we can no longer have normal food on our tables.

Beggars can't be choosers. You know that, right?

maybe a small few can but it's not enough to be a significant employer of the work force. not many people make 300k per year. even 100k is like in the top 10% of income earners I would think.

it's called automation and this isn't the first time it has happened. if you're against automation then you're against progress. simple as that.

the reason it sounds good in theory is because it IS good in theory. it's good in practice too. i mean if they can pay some households $2000 per month for food stamps i mean who eats that much food? then they can surely afford to pay every person $1000 each month.

no one told me, it's a conclusion i came to. we have alot of patchwork programs that pay people some type of universal basic income already here in the usa like food stamps, social security, etc, etc. just replace all of those things with everyone getting the same universal basic income and be done with it. that way everyone is treated equally.

it makes alot of sense actually. hopefully someone that it doesn't make sense to would get booted out of office though and replaced with a more compassionate version of themself.

I wouldn't be letting thousands of people flow across the border and paying them when I could be taking care of american citizens who are struggling, I'll tell you that much.

I'll take the string anyday. Just tell me where and when to sign up. You don't get anything for free. If the government wants to pay me a Universal Basic Income then I need to comply with their rules and wishes too if they are not too unreasonable. Just like someone on disability might need to go in for a checkup every so often just to make sure they still really can't work...

Nice long term graph, value fell for about 70 years on the turn of the 17th century and I presume this was something to do with a larger amount of silver being mined with Dollar also linked to that metal at that time.  Also sterling is famously named after silver so perhaps we can assume the influence of silver used to be far greater.    Is this amount of 'degrade' as bad as what we have recently and despite a solid link, it happened anyway as the world changed its ability to mine and refine its elements.   I think we are far worse now with the rapid change from comparative 20 to near 0 even though the value back appears to be a third after falling its less harsh percentage terms and even so you could exchange for silver which has its uses in a solid way.
  Despite the variation up or down the currency held its value from start till over 300 years later, that is a golden age compared all the other regimes that have operated money.  We cannot expect the same again to occur.

From my own experience, rich guys are usually the stingiest ones.
By the way, US healthcare system is the worst healthcare system that exists in this world. Doctors and Clinics have a legal right to rob you, they can ask you for as much money as they want. The Insulin accident already answers how messed up their HC is.

By the way, I don't think it's a good idea to forgive unpaid loans. That basically means that the honest, hard-working people to probably said no to a lot of things in order to pay loans, are just dickheads and the other part, who had fun and didn't pay loans, are more privileged. I prefer proof-of-work over proof-of-laziness.

This attitude is what I hate the most! Is it good that landlords earn thousands of dollars from single apartment while doing nothing and living a luxury life? Where is the product created? No, one just exploits another person. The Soviet Union had this great system: If you were willing to work in a company for ten years, you would get an apartment. That's why there is very high home ownership in post-soviet states.
Also, about eating, what about if KFC lowers food prices and increases wages? This way, I'll be able to keep eating 5 times a week and their employees won't feel like slaves, while this company will still be able to run profitable business. But no, people like you, come and say that we should live tight-fisted instead of protesting super high profits that businesses make and the way they exploit their employees.

I have a question: Am I a bad person if I manage to avoid taxes? Keep in mind that politicians, that you elect and see every day, lie to you and earn money not only from taxes you pay but from other dark sides. When you see them, you want to take selfies, instead of protesting what they do and punching them in faces for everything bad that they do.

It's very hard even today to get a job via uni degree. I know a lot of guy who finished great universities with high GPI and struggle to find a job in their profession, instead, are forced to do shit jobs. That's the problem, we have a lot of people with uni degree, that number isn't really necessary but there is a huge demand on trades skills, we have a huge deficit there. There is a huge demand on plumbers in Ireland, I mean, the demand is so high that one can easily earn up to 100K Euro net. Can you imagine 100K euro net annual salary in Europe? Can you imagine? Yes, that's possible for plumbers in Ireland. But people still go in university, then work in KFC, MacDonalds, Supermarkets, Parcel Delivery, Food Delivery, Uber, etc.

People who become an AI engineers, are very talented and the very successful STEM students. There will always be a demand on very intelligent people, the problem here is an average or slightly above-average citizen.

The problem is that in the future there won't be enough jobs for everyone, even if you got a university degree:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/11/29/automation-could-kill-73-million-u-s-jobs-2030/899878001/
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/12/business/dukaan-ceo-layoffs-ai-chatbot/index.html

Most people do this mistake: they think that the future will be exactly like the past ("oh, my father/grandfather got a degree and then got a nice paying job, so I'll do the same!").

Who guarantees you that???

Of course the same applies to Bitcoin too! Who guarantees you that 4-year cycles (halving-induced bull runs) will be a thing until 2140? I expect a couple more cycles (2025, 2029), but after that the halving effect will be minimal, if any.

Some people may argue that new jobs will be created... sure, you can become an AI engineer and earn tons of money (300k/year).

But for every new job created, hundreds will be lost. That's a fact and it doesn't sound good for the -totally clueless- majority.

And what are you gonna do when the AI becomes so advanced (AGI level) that it will become an AI engineer of itself? Tech progress never stops.

"Oh, I'll probably retire by then, so it won't affect me!" Sure thing, pal...

Beware of the UBI idea: https://2020.yang2020.com/policies/the-freedom-dividend/

It may sound good in theory, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Who told you that the Elites will pay you forever, just to play video games, eat McDonalds and smoke crack? According to Harari, most people are "useless eaters".

It makes zero sense for the Elites to feed 8 billion people, even though they will need A LOT LESS thanks to AI/robot automation (yeah, it's the cold harsh truth that nobody wants to admit).

Don't be so gullible and better start thinking what you would do if you were in their position: would you feed so many people, just because it sounds "noble" and "humanitarian"?

The Elites are not humanitarian at all, I'm afraid...

UBI will be provided with CBDC, which means social credit score & carbon credits will become mandatory. Total control, enslavement, surveillance. There is no "free" lunch. Beware of the strings attached!

I realize that this may be getting slightly off topic from the main discussion but I'm not against forgiving someone's debts if they qualify for it by having a low income. Just like people can get health insurance premiums reduced based on their income. I'm not sure what you mean by "living in poverty". One thing that never made sense to me is people who have large incomes but blow all their money on useless things and saddled with alot of consumer debt and large rent payments and things. That's their problem. I don't think someone making $100,000 per year should be asking for any help from the government.

OTOH, I feel for someone making only $30,000 per year after having graduated from college. They are either a loser or a victim. In either case, forgive their loan if possible. But make sure that they don't suddenly go up in income after that.

If you make loan forgiveness "means-based" then the only point of contention I might have is what income level qualifies them for loan forgiveness. Or how much to subsidize at each income level and where that cutoff is. I'm tired of hearing about how people making 6 figures need help with their bills....or even high 5 figures  


I'm surprised that you would be putting words in my mouth Franky. Students are supposed to graduate first and only then do they become responsible to start paying their loan back, once they get a nice paying job. What's the problem with them doing that? I expect them to do that. That's what they promised to do. I want students to pay back what they borrowed if they have  the means to do so once they get out in the workplace. All of it. Not just some of it unless they are low income. But I would be willing to bet you that 75% of these people that took out student loans and graduated now make more than $60,000 per year thus they have no excuse to why they can't keep paying. None at all. Rent too expensive? Find a roommate. Job doesn't pay enough? Maybe you need to stop eating out 5 times a week. Have too many other bills? Learn to live within your means. But don't expect tax payers to pay it for you.

The problem though with doing a blanket freeze on loan payments and interest though is the same problem that happened with the rent moratorium landlords really got screwed, some of them. No one wanted to resume paying rent. 

for full clarity of the process
banks do not lend out bank customer deposits(unlike how some others think thats how loans work). instead banks were allowed to CREATE 10% of extra money vs depositors to give out as loans
EG say the banks had a combined 15trillion on deposits.. at any given time they could only hand out an extra 1.5tillion. which if loans had say a 10 year window of repayment. meant any given year they could only give out 150billion..(aka 1% a year of new temporary money~ vs customer deposits)

decades ago. this was not good enough for banks, it was too slow to claw back funds via repayments to refill the allotment to then offer fresh loans out, as they had new people wanting more loans. and so banks sold that debt onto other investors to refill the yearly allotment they were allowed(thats how the derivatives market came into play). by getting investors to fill the allotment instead of waiting for the loan payers.
thus the investors then got paid by the loan payers and the investora paid upfront to the bank for the debt the investors now own and need to be repaid by loan receivers

this meant that by investors refilling the allotment. the banks could make fresh loans faster rather then waiting for slow monthly repayments to refill the allotment over years.

and now that requirement is now 0% because the 10% became meaningless years ago. banks were producing more then 1% of new money pear year on a 10 year repayment vs depositors balance (which would calculate to be the 10% once repaid)
because they refilled the allotment with other sources to side step the purpose of the 10% function

larry please please please friggen do some research or dont get involved in discussions you dont understand

the actual deal has nothing to do with making debts unenforceable. students still need to pay a tidy sum of the debt. but its the last portion (after XXX payments) that gets written off

banks do it all the time. learn about write offs, learn about banking, learn that its not biden passing money to student or banks. its actually biden doing a deal with banks to not have banks chase after students after X amount is paid off(minus  forgiven amount)

students still need to pay majority of debt but they get a small final portion wrote off.. again they are not handed cash to students, nor is biden creating cash nor is biden handing cash to banks

..
as for you saying "i don't know about that franky. they paid out cold hard cash so students could pay tuition, rent, food,etc"
actually what happened is:
he froze repayments due do covid so that students didnt have to start repaying their loans.. meaning the student didnt get free money. they just didnt have to pay the loan for a few years. thus appeared better off

students that were locked into campus housing but were forced to seek other accommodation due to covid meaning pay out as an extra expense for housing they thought were already paid for due to student loans for financial relief. not everyone did. but some did.. this was all part of the covid relief package

if you think students should be made homeless and die of starvation whilst you think bankers deserve a bonus for all their scheming and shoddy business practices, you really do have a warped sense of ethics and morals and reality

seems your the guy that wants banks to eat all the cookies while making everyone else fight over crumbs

Now you're getting it! Centralized fractional reserve banking is one giant scam.

Banks write off loans all the time. Once they've hounded you for as much as they can, they sell your debt on to some debt collector for cents on the dollar because it simply isn't worth their time or money any more.

I find it strange that you are in favor of this, but you are against student debt forgiveness when so many of the people being saddled with these ridiculous repayments are living in poverty or close to it.

Quite the opposite! Previously banks had to keep in reserve at least 10% of the assets on their books. In 2020 the Fed decided to lower that to 0% (where it still sits), meaning banks don't have to actually hold any assets whatsoever and are free to just endlessly lend out money that doesn't exist! Money printer goes brrrrr!

but the government doesn't owe the banks the loan money. the borrowers do.

well as long as people were paying their loans back and getting punished if not then i had no issue with the student loans existing. but i didn't realize they also "created a whole bunch of new money out of thin air". seems like a ponzi scheme. maybe that's why banks never seem to run out of money to lend out? but they sure do take repayment seriously. you would think that if it was so easy to create they wouldn't get so upset if someone didn't pay it bank.

i'm in favor of a universal basic income so people can at least live in some level of dignity. but the usa government will do everything it can to not allow that to ever happen. they don't want everyone to have a basic shelter and food and such. if that happened then the usa would be destroyed forever i guess. it can't be the usa and have that.

don't they come up with new regulations after such disasters? but with this student loan debacle, seems like they just want to keep pumping out unenforceable student loans, aka, gifts of money.

As franky1 has explained, no money is actually changing hands. They are simply writing off liabilities. You know, just like they did for billions in PPP loans fraudulently taken out by billionaires.

I assure you it happens all the time. Only around 3% of new money is printed by the government. 97% of new money comes from regular banks being fractional reserve and creating new money out of thin air every single time they hand out a loan, a mortgage, a line of credit, and so on, just like when they handed out these student loans. If anything you should be angry about the student loans existing in the first place since they created a whole bunch of new money out of thin air.

But people aren't? Billions to bail out banks which are worth hundreds of billions, but let people be made homeless and starve because fuck them? Lol.

Not even close.

And now that banks know they can do anything they like and still get bailed out, they won't worry about playing by the rules at all.

Thin air. That's how banks make loans. Have a read of this paper from the Bank of England: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/media/boe/files/quarterly-bulletin/2014/money-creation-in-the-modern-economy.pdf

he might as well be paying people 10k in cash because it has the same affect.

wrong. now that everyone knows student loans are unenforceable and the government really doesn't require them to be repaid, no one is going to worry about making their payments on time. if at all.


oh ok well i'll just tell my friend that he doesn't need to pay his mortgage anymore and that will detach him from the obligation to pay to the bank.

i don't know about that franky. they paid out cold hard cash so students could pay tuition, rent, food,etc and now you're telling me that cold hard cash was just imaginary? well then who did it come from?

students owe the money to the bank franky. the government doesn't owe it to the bank. but if the government has to step in and pay it on behalf of the students, then the taxpayer is on the hook.

its like me saying i borrowed 10 bitcoin from you and you gave it to greg first. and he gives me the 10 bitcoin. but greg already owes you 15 bitcoin from past dealings. so then you decide i don't need to pay anything and you'll settle up with greg by reducing his debt to only 5 bitcoin. greg is happy, i'm happy but you're very unhappy. unless you have a way of making new bitcoins out of thin air... or you have some power that allows you to approach some group of  a hundred of a thousand bitcointalk users and tell them that they need to pay you the 10 bitcoin that I didn't pay you back. it will only cost each of them a fraction of a bitcoin you tell them. you tell them they won't even notice it.

well, i'm not sure franky. maybe since we went off the gold standard the us dollar has been on a decline and we can understand why. but before that, i'm not sure what contributed to the decline. maybe you know.

he is not paying people $10k!! he is getting the debt written off by the banks
also the students dont get the cancellation upfront. they have to make 120 months(10 years) of payments.. and then have the remainder wrote off
learn FORGIVENESS
EG


what you need to learn is that the government does not give students new cash to pay off debt. it just tells students they dont need to pay the loan company. thus detaches the students obligation to the bank..

what you need to then realise is because the loan is THEN only between the government and the bank it temporarily sits as a liability on government books. however then the government does a deal with the bank for the bank to not claim against the government. so it appears as a rise of ~$500b (multi year liability compressed into a 1 year liability line on the books)

because the banks due to other QE stuff owe the government. thus they cancel out their deal later. thus no money changes hands in all three parties. they are just wrote off at different times

as for all the time, you love images and memes and hate technical descriptions. so heres a simple one

ever since the 1700's the value of the dollar has been on a decline.. its not just happened since 2020, its been happening all the time even before your great great great great grandad was born

as for banks being more equal
if they are causing home owners mortgage rates to increase due to THE BANKS activity/impact of inflation. then they should near the end of the mortgage write off the difference to mortgage payers first quote vs the variable rate that has cause people negative impact

as for you thinking our taxes of any country should benefit the banks more then the people.. you really must be trolling for entertainment..
if a business cannot run sustainably on its own merit. then lose the bank. let more prosperous banks manage the customers
if a bank/business/scheme is doing something shady/illegal/negligently. remove that culprit

what do you mean by "all the time"? and yes biden is causing it when he pays 800,000 people $10,000 towards their student loans.

no one is "writing off" student debt, they're just forcing american taxpayers to pay it for these former students many of whom can afford to pay it themself but don't want to because they want someone else to pay it for them even though they agreed to pay it back themself when they got the loans.

you're comparing two totally different situations. it's a common logical fallacy franky.

why should i get used to it? the only time it gets devalued is when we print more of it. that only happens at certain points in time, not "all the time". and no bitcoin was not invented to hedge against the dollar or any other fiat currency. you really need to get your facts straight. read satoshi's white paper maybe. does it mention hedging against the dollar? i doubt it...

you may like to THINK of it as a hedge against inflation or the us dollar but that's only your mind playing tricks on you.


banks are a necessary part of modern society thus we have to keep them running. if the taxpayers have to bail them out then so be it. everyone shares that burden equally though. unlike say student loan forgiveness where one group of people is getting one over on the other...


two wrongs don't make a right. you can point to other injustices but you can't use them as reasons why something else is not wrong.

it doesn't make sense that you would pay $10,000 towards someone's student loans if they are making $100,000 per year.

many countries are owed debt from USA.. however many countries owe debt to the USA.
deals can be done to mutually cancel each others debt 1:1 where not money changes hands but they mutually reduce their debt from each other

Interesting read:

https://goldswitzerland.com/a-catastrophic-debt-implosion-can-be-incredibly-quick/

We have had this exact news story at least twice a year for decades. We raise the limit, we spend with abandon, we come close to the limit, we risk a shutdown (occasionally we do shutdown), we raise the limit, we repeat endlessly. This has nothing to do with Biden, and everything to do with our completely broken political system being bought out by the oligarchs who actually run this country.

Let's blame this on the student debts, will we? Let's ignore the trillions in evaded taxes from said oligarchs? Let's ignore the trillions used to bail out the banks over and over again? Let's ignore the billions in PPP loans which billionaires took and then wrote off? Let's ignore that we have to subsidize people in full time employment because these billionaires won't pay them a reasonable wage?

Of course it was. Next time there is a bank needing bailed out, the money printer will start up again without hesitation.

Lol. Yeah, definitely Biden's fault. We'll just ignore the Trump tax cuts for the rich which cost 5x what student debt forgiveness is going to cost, shall we?

the dollar gets devalued all the time.. thats the whole point of the dollar.
biden did not cause it. its due to events from many years back

also treasury money is suppose to help those less well off.. its not suppose to give banks trillions.. also by writing off alot of student debt it did actually help lower the debt. thats what write offs do!!

if you think it was ok to bail the banks for X years but not give small cheques/write offs to the little guys then you have failed another test of economic knowledge

yes the dollar is getting devalued. get used to it. why do you think bitcoin was invented for to hedge against the dollar

if you did not realise the whole world is impacted by inflation. not just bidens USA.. and if you look closer. its the BANKS that are at fault

look at the actions of the BANKS.. you know.. where the real economics stem from

i guarantee you that the in the last 10 years the 15 TRILLION added on. did not go to the little guys like migrants or whatever fox news told you to blame it on

there is a meme going around of how media want you to think.. but look who actually has the cookies

thanks for the link i knew i had seen the story somewhere!

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that the Treasury will run out of cash and borrowing authority by October or November 2023, unless Congress acts to raise or suspend the debt ceiling. If that happens, the US would face an unprecedented default on its debt, which could trigger a global financial crisis and a severe recession.


you can thank biden and the democrats for wanting to pay off everyone's student loans plus all the free handouts immigrants are getting plus probably alot of other free cash programs for all of this.  

yeah it's become ridiculous. i mean, it's like they raised the debt ceiling just so they could borrow more money to hand out. and then they'll need to do it again later this year. OR ELSE. all the rhetoric about tightening up the spending belt was pure BS.


i thought they had a plan in place to reduce spending but I GUESS NOT!

biden has to be the worst president ever in us history about how he doesn't care about the devaluation of the us dollar.