Fee discovery - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

piotr_n

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aka tonikt

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: piotr_n on June 03, 2014, 06:25:50 PM

If a miner isn't going to deliver his promise, nobody is going to hang him, but why would he do that?

I already told you. To raise the average fee paid. A miner can actually require a minimum of 0.1 mBTC to include a tx in the next block but advertise that it requires 0.2 mBTC

Fine - so what?
Then just do what you do now: assume that he's bluffing and pay as little as you want.
But then you wont be sure that he will mine it, in the next block.

If you want to play poker with miners - I don't see anything wrong with that.

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No but any system should be built on the assumption that if a system can be gamed it will be gamed. Promises without consequence are worthless in a trustless network.

But the promise is only as for the fee that guarantees a certain service - that's a service they sell.
If you don't want to buy the guarantee to be mined withing in the next block, use your system; set you fee to ten times less and pray...

piotr_n

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aka tonikt

I don't know why you assume that miners would be tricking the network.
They care about the consistency of this network and its well being just as much as we do - maybe even more.

If a miner isn't going to deliver his promise, nobody is going to hang him, but why would he do that?
Had you been mining blocks, would you be putting a fake information, just to mislead people like this?
It would be really bad for your business, also unethical, so such mining pool would likely soon get abandoned by their miners.

What better idea do you have for the fee discovery?

piotr_n

legendary

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aka tonikt

Quote from: ?? on ??

If you are reading the coinbase to determine what fee requirements are then you are still reading the past.

No - you are reading a promise.
Miners have no reason whatsoever to deliver a false promise.

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Miners do set their own hard limits to block size (many use 250KB and some use 700KB) these aren't limits imposed by the network but instead self imposed limits so if a miner requires 0.1 mBTC per KB and there are more than 700KB of tx waiting then paying 0.1 mBTC per KB is not a guarantee you will be included in the next block.

Of course.
Is there anyone who says otherwise?

But the mining business is going to develop, and eventually the fees will be the only thing that keeps it alive - the only thing that protects a security of our money.

Miners will develop new business models around fees.
The idea of them announcing bids on what level of fee they plan to include in the next block - this seems not only a good business for miners, but also a nice fee discovery solution for the community.
And the best part is: we don't need to change Bitcon Core, in order to achieve that. I mean miner do a bit, but most of them use their own mods anyway.

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

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aka tonikt

Quote from: ?? on ??

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I heard that they work on something like this in the bitcoin core, but obviously their solution isn't going to work.
Because they don't use the bitcoin community to solve the problem.

There is no need to use the "community" when you have the blockchain. The blockchain provides sufficient information to make a solid estimate of the parameters used by miners (max block size, min tx fee, and kb reserved for "free" high priority txs). This lets you know what parameters miners are using and thus what future blocks are likely to look like. The memory pool lets you know what tx are awaiting and where you will be in the last list when ranked by fee and/or priority.

Regardless of what miners say they will do, the blockchain provides proof of what they did.

Yes, but the trick is to predict the future, not to measure the past.
Otherwise you will always lag behind, whenever there is like a rush hour peek.
Miners can say what fee is needed to include a transaction of a certain size in the next block - literally.
And that's all you need.
If that works, then they will even agree to lift the block size limit, because it would let them to keep up to their promises. Which is important in the fee business

piotr_n

legendary

Activity: 2053

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aka tonikt

Fee discovery, the way for you to figure out how much fee you need to pay so your transaction would be mined withing the next N hours - this is going to be a useful thing in a future.
We don't know how far future, but probably we will get to see it.

I heard that they work on something like this in the bitcoin core, but obviously their solution isn't going to work.
Because they don't use the bitcoin community to solve the problem.

I was thinking how to solve it and I think the most efficient way is to ask miners (mining pools) to include their transaction queue statistics into the blocks they mine.
So nodes could figure out how much they have to pay to be mined, just by looking into the headers of past blocks.

I think this is the easiest solution, and putting such info inside the coinbase's payload, makes it totally backward compatible.

BTW, I am really surprised that miners don't yet use the extra space, inside the coinbases, as advertising space.
for all we know its going to last longer than piramids

Topic: Fee discovery - page 2. (Read 1387 times)