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Topic: FinCEN renamed "stored value" to "pre-paid access", let's hire a lawyer! (Read 2498 times)

hero member
Activity: 726
Merit: 500
Why do so many people worry about how the law (and courts) will view bitcoin? Bitcoin was designed to route around centralized, authoritarian interference. There is no "silver bullet" in the law that will ultimately save and protect bitcoin because:

1. the laws can always be 'adjusted' to accomplish the aims of the State;
2. bitcoin doesn't need saving -- laws and regulations written specifically for bitcoin would perversely enhance its legitimacy.

Its not about saving bitcoin, its about not being arrested by accepting it.

I agree with Jon.  Do you people realize that nearly everyone who lives in a G-20 nation is already a criminal, and likely a felon too?  There are so many laws on the books, that I'm sure all of us could find illegal things that we do on a regular basis.  This overreach by the state has to be stopped somehow, and it's not going to happen through a legal or political process.  Politicians, bureaucrats and the existing banking system have a vested interest in keeping us in chains.  The best way to avoid getting arrested is to do business anonymously and/or with multiple small transactions.  This is what Bitcoin was designed for.  It may seem like a niche now, but once the centralized power structure starts to crumble, Bitcoin and other p2p currencies will come into their own.
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 251
With the stroke of a pen lawmakers can make anything illegal. Then whether they have the will and ability to enforce the new law. Then the courts get involved. I don't think it's much of a stretch to look at something like this
http://www.fincen.gov/statutes_regs/guidance/html/FIN-2010-A011.html
and see crypto-currencies getting make illegal. Then we'll see what happens from there
sr. member
Activity: 352
Merit: 250
Founder, BTCJAM
what is this going to mean for the bitcoin consumer and bitcoin merchant?

Anyone (business or natural person) that exchange pre-paid for something must keep records of each transaction for five years, require personal identification and report "suspicius activities" to FinCEN.



Bitcoin aside, I suspect we're going to see a lot less businesses selling things like gift cards, mobile phone credit, pre-paid Visas and the like if they have to verify the identity of the buyer for each sale.  The administrative burden will just be too huge for a lot of small businesses to continue offering those things or it would slow down their normal operations too much (in the case of businesses like supermarkets).

Its already happening, if you are not american you need to submit ID to buy an itunes gift card, for example.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1036
The u-wash-it car wash I go to issues tokens out of their change machine. Actually, their machine is loaded with a mix of quarters and tokens, so you don't know what you'll get. I can redeem those later for car wash service, or trade my extras at the car wash to the next guy that comes in. Time for a crackdown!
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
what is this going to mean for the bitcoin consumer and bitcoin merchant?

Anyone (business or natural person) that exchange pre-paid for something must keep records of each transaction for five years, require personal identification and report "suspicius activities" to FinCEN.



Bitcoin aside, I suspect we're going to see a lot less businesses selling things like gift cards, mobile phone credit, pre-paid Visas and the like if they have to verify the identity of the buyer for each sale.  The administrative burden will just be too huge for a lot of small businesses to continue offering those things or it would slow down their normal operations too much (in the case of businesses like supermarkets).
sr. member
Activity: 352
Merit: 250
Founder, BTCJAM
Why do so many people worry about how the law (and courts) will view bitcoin? Bitcoin was designed to route around centralized, authoritarian interference. There is no "silver bullet" in the law that will ultimately save and protect bitcoin because:

1. the laws can always be 'adjusted' to accomplish the aims of the State;
2. bitcoin doesn't need saving -- laws and regulations written specifically for bitcoin would perversely enhance its legitimacy.

Its not about saving bitcoin, its about not being arrested by accepting it.
sr. member
Activity: 352
Merit: 250
Founder, BTCJAM
what is this going to mean for the bitcoin consumer and bitcoin merchant?

Anyone (business or natural person) that exchange pre-paid for something must keep records of each transaction for five years, require personal identification and report "suspicius activities" to FinCEN.

legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
Let the chips fall where they may.
I think there are ways to ask for a declatory judgement.

If bitcoin really does not fit into any neat definitions, the court rule on the legality of things around bitcoin instead, such are requiring Money Service Business registration for exchanging bitcoin like they did in france with MtGox.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
can't we push the issue... ask the court to make an official decision.
make them illegally define bitcoin.

would this be good or bad for bitcoin?



sr. member
Activity: 303
Merit: 251
Why do so many people worry about how the law (and courts) will view bitcoin? Bitcoin was designed to route around centralized, authoritarian interference. There is no "silver bullet" in the law that will ultimately save and protect bitcoin because:

1. the laws can always be 'adjusted' to accomplish the aims of the State;
2. bitcoin doesn't need saving -- laws and regulations written specifically for bitcoin would perversely enhance its legitimacy.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
As long as people realise that a law firm's not going to be able to give you a definitive answer.  At best they can give you an opinion on how they think a court might interpret the legislation. 

From what I've read, the changes are comprehensive enough to include things like pre-paid mobile phone and internet plans as well as gift-cards and pre-paid credit cards.  There doesn't seem to be a requirement that the thing bought can be redeemed for a fixed value.

What they seem to be trying to do is include things which may be used for money laundering in the future and not just those which have been used in the past (phone cards and prepaid credit cards have definitely been used in the past).  By specifying the characteristics, they have more latitude for including some new thing under the regulations without needing to re-legislate.  It's kind of like analogue drug legislation for financial services.





full member
Activity: 213
Merit: 100
let's hire a law firm to find out if it's legal to pool together bitcoins to hire a law firm.
hero member
Activity: 772
Merit: 501
Quote from: Tulkas
No, accordingly to FinCEN "monetary value" doesn't need to be redeemed for national currency:

You're correct that it's not just national currency, but that's not important to my point.

My point is that this:

Quote
"[a]ccess to funds or the value of funds that have been paid in advance

Can only describe credit for a set amount of monetary value whether that value is in the form of a national currency or some other widely accepted medium of exchange thing else (e.g. goods/services), not a fluctuating value dependent on the market price of the commodity.

Bitcoin is a commodity. It's not pre-paid any thing.

Quote
I've made a different thread because i think the main point here is hiring a law firm to have those questions answered. I think many people here will benefit from that.

Definitely.
sr. member
Activity: 352
Merit: 250
Founder, BTCJAM

Yes, you don't need to be in US ground to be considered a criminal there.

If you perform "money transmit", issue or sell pre-paid access in Costa Rica, you are still a criminal in US.

I've made a different thread because i think the main point here is hiring a law firm to have those questions answered. I think many people here will benefit from that.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
what is this going to mean for the bitcoin consumer and bitcoin merchant?
sr. member
Activity: 352
Merit: 250
Founder, BTCJAM
It would be a very wrong decision to classify bitcoin as "pre-paid access". Pre-paid access means paying for credit that can later be redeemed for national currency. Buying a commodity, including a digital one like bitcoin, that has a value that fluctuates in the market, is not tantamount to credit that exists in a pre-paid card.

No, accordingly to FinCEN "monetary value" doesn't need to be redeemed for national currency:

1. "Monetary value" is defined as "a medium of exchange, whether or not redeemable in money." Although not defined, medium of exchange connotes that the value is accepted by a larger group than the two parties to the change. Therefore, no "monetary value" would exist if the product (i.e., gift certificate) or payment mechanism (i.e., university payment card) is only accepted by one merchant.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
There's a related thread here.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/anti-laundering-policies-us-51980

Also here.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/fincens-prepaid-access-town-hall-meeting-vienna-va-46971

Quote
The new rule was designed to be technology neutral and is meant to be adaptable to a range of products, such as a plastic card, an internet system, or a mobile phone network.

[Criteria that determines if a product is subject to the new rules include] whether the product is reloadable, can be transferred to other consumers, and, […] can be used to transfer funds outside the United States.

We will be publishing [a] proposal for public comment very soon [on the requirement that tangible prepaid access is declared] when it is transported across a border, similar to the existing declaration required for international transport of cash and monetary instruments.

An entity that engages in money transmission in any amount is subject to the BSA rules.

The term ‘currency dealer or exchanger’ [has been replaced] with the new term ‘dealer in foreign exchange,’ a term used to include the exchange of instruments other than currency as a category of MSB.

It is recognized that AML/CFT regulations need to be applied not just to banks, but rather to a range of financial and other types of commercial institutions. Why? The reason is that any way that you can move money—any way that value can be intermediated—can be abused by criminals”.

Violations by much smaller entities might also merit monetary penalties.

Over the past year FinCEN has been engaged in an initiative to identify unregistered money services businesses, primarily independent money transmitters.

Now that FinCEN has established a solid regulatory framework for prepaid access in the United States, we must continue to promote analogous steps in foreign jurisdictions.

http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/11074108719/fincen-freis-prepaid-access-speech

They're planning on pressuring similar bodies overseas to adopt similar provisions.  
sr. member
Activity: 352
Merit: 250
Founder, BTCJAM
This doesn't look good.

Not, it doesn't, but maybe as a collective we can hire a fancy law firm and have some professionals looking over it.

I think it will be much more productive than each and every new startup here burning resources to solve an issue that affects so many of us.
hero member
Activity: 772
Merit: 501
It would be a very wrong decision to classify bitcoin as "pre-paid access". Pre-paid access means paying for credit that can later be redeemed for national currency. Buying a commodity, including a digital one like bitcoin, that has a value that fluctuates in the market, is not tantamount to credit that exists in a pre-paid card.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
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