First Provably Fair for investors and players Bitcoin dice game

zbwier

newbie

Activity: 18

Merit: 0

Quote from: ComboChris on January 05, 2015, 10:10:54 AM

Quote from: zbwier on January 05, 2015, 06:17:52 AM

Quote from: Frank.SD on January 05, 2015, 05:46:44 AM

How could that be so first? Wink

Our site backend is modular, the roll server is a stand-alone component that can be deployed on a machine we do not have control of, as a consequence, we won't have knowledge of the server seeds and couldn't predict any roll outcome. This would render totally impossible playing against the site investors. It's the first implementation of this kind, as far as we know.

How are you gonna be able to proof that you do not have control of the roll server?
How trusted would that third party that is in control of the server be?
What will happen if the server crashes or has any other sort of technical problem?

The server will be managed by a major investor or a group of investors. That means that they will have direct interest in ensuring that we do not have access to the system.
We tested extensively our software and can say it is stable, anyhow, in case of a failure we will assist directly the involved parties in order to solve the issue.

ComboChris

full member

Activity: 189

Merit: 100

Quote from: zbwier on January 05, 2015, 06:17:52 AM

Quote from: Frank.SD on January 05, 2015, 05:46:44 AM

How could that be so first? Wink

Our site backend is modular, the roll server is a stand-alone component that can be deployed on a machine we do not have control of, as a consequence, we won't have knowledge of the server seeds and couldn't predict any roll outcome. This would render totally impossible playing against the site investors. It's the first implementation of this kind, as far as we know.

How are you gonna be able to proof that you do not have control of the roll server?
How trusted would that third party that is in control of the server be?
What will happen if the server crashes or has any other sort of technical problem?

zbwier

newbie

Activity: 18

Merit: 0

Quote from: Frank.SD on January 05, 2015, 05:46:44 AM

How could that be so first? Wink

Our site backend is modular, the roll server is a stand-alone component that can be deployed on a machine we do not have control of, as a consequence, we won't have knowledge of the server seeds and couldn't predict any roll outcome. This would render totally impossible playing against the site investors. It's the first implementation of this kind, as far as we know.

Frank.SD

member

Activity: 61

Merit: 10

SafeDice.com - 0.5% Edge - Instant Payout - Chat

How could that be so first? Wink

zbwier

newbie

Activity: 18

Merit: 0

We got in touch with a few members to discuss further details of the deal we are proposing. We would like to hear from more interested parties as well.

coincolonel

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: Stars on January 03, 2015, 03:31:47 PM

Quote from: Jarx on January 02, 2015, 05:09:50 PM

People are thinking new members of this community are fraud, because of people stupids in the past(DB,DN,..).
If you don't trust a user, do not say "beware, this guy must be theft". Simply, do not money to his business and shut your up until you sure it's a scam.

Also I don't trust and I won't invest anything, related to bitcoin.

That's like saying, if you have suspicions of someone being dangerous don't warn people about him/her until you're sure. That's ridiculous, there's no harm in warning people that this may be a scam since a lot of people with bitcoin will invest in nearly anything. Look at ponzi schemes for example.

is there anyone says: "beware, this guy must be theft" ?

in my opinion, it's ok for us to warn each other

that's what community for

zbwier

newbie

Activity: 18

Merit: 0

Quote from: btcll on January 03, 2015, 11:27:26 PM

Quote from: zbwier on January 02, 2015, 12:13:29 PM

We have developed a specific solution to this issue : a stand-alone roll server, to be deployed on a machine managed by large investors, or an highly trusted third party.

Centralization is NOT the answer to this problem!

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-today-we-know-that-centralization-and-big-bureaucracies-have-not-as-promised-been-the-answer-for-carlos-salinas-73836.jpg

As a community we need to be backing decentralized solutions over centralized options. As long as parts of the system are closed source and centralized there is the potential for dishonest players to take advantage of others. Especially when the incentive becomes big enough.

While being generally accepted as correct, this specific logic does not apply to the issues we are dealing with.

btcll

newbie

Activity: 1

Merit: 0

Quote from: zbwier on January 02, 2015, 12:13:29 PM

We have developed a specific solution to this issue : a stand-alone roll server, to be deployed on a machine managed by large investors, or an highly trusted third party.

Centralization is NOT the answer to this problem!

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-today-we-know-that-centralization-and-big-bureaucracies-have-not-as-promised-been-the-answer-for-carlos-salinas-73836.jpg

As a community we need to be backing decentralized solutions over centralized options. As long as parts of the system are closed source and centralized there is the potential for dishonest players to take advantage of others. Especially when the incentive becomes big enough.

Stars

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

Quote from: Jarx on January 02, 2015, 05:09:50 PM

People are thinking new members of this community are fraud, because of people stupids in the past(DB,DN,..).
If you don't trust a user, do not say "beware, this guy must be theft". Simply, do not money to his business and shut your up until you sure it's a scam.

Also I don't trust and I won't invest anything, related to bitcoin.

That's like saying, if you have suspicions of someone being dangerous don't warn people about him/her until you're sure. That's ridiculous, there's no harm in warning people that this may be a scam since a lot of people with bitcoin will invest in nearly anything. Look at ponzi schemes for example.

zbwier

newbie

Activity: 18

Merit: 0

Quote from: RGBKey on January 03, 2015, 02:22:55 AM

I've seen this problem on Just-Dice, and I know me and dooglus have thought of this as a solution at least once, but it still requires trust of the party that holds the server. It's an interesting solution, but I'm eager to see how it works out.

By the way, are you interested in checking out the code ?

zbwier

newbie

Activity: 18

Merit: 0

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: zbwier on January 03, 2015, 05:24:01 AM

Quote from: Jarx on January 03, 2015, 05:21:51 AM

Because you will be able to see users seeds from a basic admin panel, so you can play against the your investors.

No, this is incorrect, we won't see any server seeds before they are published by players. We will only see their sha256 hashes.

Same door.

You can't get the server seed from its sha256 hash. One point which could be discussed is that we would know details about the RNG, but there are solutions to this.

retrocoingames

hero member

Activity: 491

Merit: 500

Without looking into the technical details of how exactly you are pulling this off, I have to say the solution to having a provably fair investing system in bitcoin betting sites is a huge break though

zbwier

newbie

Activity: 18

Merit: 0

Quote from: zbwier on January 03, 2015, 05:24:01 AM

Quote from: Jarx on January 03, 2015, 05:21:51 AM

Quote from: zbwier on January 03, 2015, 04:46:57 AM

Quote from: Jarx on January 03, 2015, 03:58:03 AM

Quote from: finlon on January 02, 2015, 06:57:48 PM

Quote from: Jarx on January 02, 2015, 01:21:17 PM

You are trying to build a big bankroll using investors trusts. What you said is spoken a lot in this forum in past. I hope you did it well.

Also I assume site is off-chain? If so betting will be so low.

Isn't off chain really slow for betting?

Of course off-chain betting is really slow, off and on aren't comparable even. But I thought that, in every bet, a user will make a HTTP request to remote server, not when a user change them.

They are saving user seeds to site DB, so what OP is doing is unnecessary process.

No, the lucky number is retrieved on every bet, not the server seed hash. Why do you think we are taking unnecessary steps ?

Because you will be able to see users seeds from a basic admin panel, so you can play against the your investors.

No, this is incorrect, we won't see any server seeds before they are published by players. We will only see their sha256 hashes.

Specifically, server seeds are saved on the machine managed by the trusted parties, and only revealed when discarded.

zbwier

newbie

Activity: 18

Merit: 0

Quote from: Jarx on January 03, 2015, 05:21:51 AM

Quote from: zbwier on January 03, 2015, 04:46:57 AM

Quote from: Jarx on January 03, 2015, 03:58:03 AM

Quote from: finlon on January 02, 2015, 06:57:48 PM

Quote from: Jarx on January 02, 2015, 01:21:17 PM

You are trying to build a big bankroll using investors trusts. What you said is spoken a lot in this forum in past. I hope you did it well.

Also I assume site is off-chain? If so betting will be so low.

Isn't off chain really slow for betting?

Of course off-chain betting is really slow, off and on aren't comparable even. But I thought that, in every bet, a user will make a HTTP request to remote server, not when a user change them.

They are saving user seeds to site DB, so what OP is doing is unnecessary process.

No, the lucky number is retrieved on every bet, not the server seed hash. Why do you think we are taking unnecessary steps ?

Because you will be able to see users seeds from a basic admin panel, so you can play against the your investors.

No, this is incorrect, we won't see any server seeds before they are published by players. We will only see their sha256 hashes.

Jarx

sr. member

Activity: 574

Merit: 253

Quote from: zbwier on January 03, 2015, 04:46:57 AM

Quote from: Jarx on January 03, 2015, 03:58:03 AM

Quote from: finlon on January 02, 2015, 06:57:48 PM

Quote from: Jarx on January 02, 2015, 01:21:17 PM

You are trying to build a big bankroll using investors trusts. What you said is spoken a lot in this forum in past. I hope you did it well.

Also I assume site is off-chain? If so betting will be so low.

Isn't off chain really slow for betting?

Of course off-chain betting is really slow, off and on aren't comparable even. But I thought that, in every bet, a user will make a HTTP request to remote server, not when a user change them.

They are saving user seeds to site DB, so what OP is doing is unnecessary process.

No, the lucky number is retrieved on every bet, not the server seed hash. Why do you think we are taking unnecessary steps ?

Because you will be able to see users seeds from a basic admin panel, so you can play against the your investors.

zbwier

newbie

Activity: 18

Merit: 0

Quote from: Jarx on January 03, 2015, 03:58:03 AM

Quote from: finlon on January 02, 2015, 06:57:48 PM

Quote from: Jarx on January 02, 2015, 01:21:17 PM

You are trying to build a big bankroll using investors trusts. What you said is spoken a lot in this forum in past. I hope you did it well.

Also I assume site is off-chain? If so betting will be so low.

Isn't off chain really slow for betting?

Of course off-chain betting is really slow, off and on aren't comparable even. But I thought that, in every bet, a user will make a HTTP request to remote server, not when a user change them.

They are saving user seeds to site DB, so what OP is doing is unnecessary process.

No, the lucky number is retrieved on every bet, not the server seed hash. Why do you think we are taking unnecessary steps ?

zbwier

newbie

Activity: 18

Merit: 0

Quote from: WhatsBitcoin on January 03, 2015, 04:20:11 AM

Quote from: zbwier on January 03, 2015, 04:18:09 AM

Quote from: RGBKey on January 03, 2015, 02:22:55 AM

I've seen this problem on Just-Dice, and I know me and dooglus have thought of this as a solution at least once, but it still requires trust of the party that holds the server. It's an interesting solution, but I'm eager to see how it works out.

I have asked dooglus to check our code and eventually run the roll server, but i guess he is very busy with his own business at the moment.

lol...."Hey dooglus can you help us, a competitor of your site, test our site to see if it would be good enough to take some of the market share from you" is essentially what you're asking.

Well, in my book he offered a similar partnership to other site operators before, and his site is using CLAM at the moment, so we aren't direct competitors. Plus, he would be earning income playing this role.

WhatsBitcoin

hero member

Activity: 560

Merit: 502

Quote from: zbwier on January 03, 2015, 04:18:09 AM

Quote from: RGBKey on January 03, 2015, 02:22:55 AM

I've seen this problem on Just-Dice, and I know me and dooglus have thought of this as a solution at least once, but it still requires trust of the party that holds the server. It's an interesting solution, but I'm eager to see how it works out.

I have asked dooglus to check our code and eventually run the roll server, but i guess he is very busy with his own business at the moment.

lol...."Hey dooglus can you help us, a competitor of your site, test our site to see if it would be good enough to take some of the market share from you" is essentially what you're asking.

zbwier

newbie

Activity: 18

Merit: 0

Quote from: RGBKey on January 03, 2015, 02:22:55 AM

I've seen this problem on Just-Dice, and I know me and dooglus have thought of this as a solution at least once, but it still requires trust of the party that holds the server. It's an interesting solution, but I'm eager to see how it works out.

I have asked dooglus to check our code and eventually run the roll server, but i guess he is very busy with his own business at the moment.

Jarx

sr. member

Activity: 574

Merit: 253

Quote from: finlon on January 02, 2015, 06:57:48 PM

Quote from: Jarx on January 02, 2015, 01:21:17 PM

You are trying to build a big bankroll using investors trusts. What you said is spoken a lot in this forum in past. I hope you did it well.

Also I assume site is off-chain? If so betting will be so low.

Isn't off chain really slow for betting?

Of course off-chain betting is really slow, off and on aren't comparable even. But I thought that, in every bet, a user will make a HTTP request to remote server, not when a user change them.

They are saving user seeds to site DB, so what OP is doing is unnecessary process.

Topic: First Provably Fair for investors and players Bitcoin dice game (Read 1370 times)