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Topic: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage? (Read 3739 times)

Dabs
legendary
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The Concierge of Crypto
Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 23, 2013, 09:26:00 AM
#31
Quote from: grue on June 23, 2013, 09:14:15 AM
Quote from: Dabs on June 23, 2013, 02:10:10 AM
Those will last years, and I'm sure you can recover something even if 50% of the files get corrupted.
You do realize that multiple copies and recovery records only protects against bad sectors. If the storage medium is damaged physically, you would likely not be able to recover data. Same goes for any wear-and-tear damage that causes total failure of the medium. Cloud storage, on the other hand, has better reliability than any physical medium (probably because they use enterprise drives and keep backups).

Yes I do. The multiple copies on one media is only for that one media. You will want multiple floppies, or multiple USB drives, in multiple locations.

And of course, encrypted in the cloud, in your gmail account, in your yahoo account, in your dropbox account.
grue
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1462
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 23, 2013, 09:14:15 AM
#30
Quote from: Dabs on June 23, 2013, 02:10:10 AM
Those will last years, and I'm sure you can recover something even if 50% of the files get corrupted.
You do realize that multiple copies and recovery records only protects against bad sectors. If the storage medium is damaged physically, you would likely not be able to recover data. Same goes for any wear-and-tear damage that causes total failure of the medium. Cloud storage, on the other hand, has better reliability than any physical medium (probably because they use enterprise drives and keep backups).
Dabs
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1912
The Concierge of Crypto
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 23, 2013, 02:10:10 AM
#29
You don't need to store the wallet.dat in the floppy. Just the private keys in a text file. Export using pywallet or similar tool. Then use rar or zip with 10% recovery record. Then make multiple copies of the file.

This is what I just did for experiments:
1. use vanitygen to make 200 private keys with 1Dabs prefix. Took a few minutes. Stopped. Saved to text file.
2. clean up file a bit. total size 25,295 bytes or 25 kb.
3. use RAR to make rar file of single text file with 10% recovery record. size result = 17,542 bytes or 17 kb. keys-20130623.rar
4. copy rar file 20 times. named Copy of keys-20130623.rar, up to Copy (20) of keys-20130623.rar total size = 359 kb.

That 359 kb fits on a 5.25 inch floppy. You have 22 copies of the keys in RAR format with 10% recovery record. Each.

If you use a 3.5 inch floppy, you can fit more.
If you use a CD-ROM, you can fit even more.
If you use a USB flash drive, you can fit a whole lot more.

Those will last years, and I'm sure you can recover something even if 50% of the files get corrupted.
Cyberdyne
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 22, 2013, 09:54:13 AM
#28
Quote from: ?? on ??
Why complicate? If you have some coins you wanna hoard, move them all to one address, export it's private key and use paper and pen then
store papers on multiple locations. You can use some additional obfuscation methods, like reversing the data, shifting it for 4 chars to right, etc.
Hidding the data in plain sight is by far the best deal possible, like using shopping bills and writting obfuscated private key on them. There is no
way you would realise some of papers around my house are Bitcoin and altcoin private keys, both them and data on them look worthless.

Be creative, and try not to depend on high-tech "solutions".

Same here, although the reason none look like private keys, is because I don't actually write down private keys, I just write down really long random-looking phrases, which I input into liteaddress.org to get the private key.

eg. This could hold some litecoins:

Hidding the data in plain sight is by far the best deal possible

(6vUBR2kdNTuPTPfWdzhYHU7EzSxFgQ5SVhPMRtBLxKAk1QhuaBD)
grau
hero member
Activity: 836
Merit: 1030
bits of proof
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 22, 2013, 09:32:39 AM
#27
Paper works for a few hundred years.

In case you use a HD wallet, you might just print the encrypted master seed as a QR code, that is just 32 bytes. An indexing server like BOP can find all transactions referring to addresses derivable from the seed in seconds and recreate the wallet, ready to use. I assume this will be even simpler soon and be part of other implementations too.
peonminer
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 531
Crypto is King.
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 21, 2013, 10:54:11 AM
#26
Quote from: ?? on ??
Quote from: escrow.ms on June 20, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
Quote from: ?? on ??
Why complicate? If you have some coins you wanna hoard, move them all to one address, export it's private key and use paper and pen then
store papers on multiple locations. You can use some additional obfuscation methods, like reversing the data, shifting it for 4 chars to right, etc.
Hidding the data in plain sight is by far the best deal possible, like using shopping bills and writting obfuscated private key on them. There is no
way you would realise some of papers around my house are Bitcoin and altcoin private keys, both them and data on them look worthless.

Be creative, and try not to depend on high-tech "solutions".

Yes and you can also encrypt private key to different strong algorithm using crypo.com

You can also watermark some image with your privatekey or hide privatekey inside a image.

Those two are high-tech "solutions" so better avoid else you will be dependant on 3rd party services or need to mess with storing images.

Quote from: escrow.ms on June 20, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
Get it engraved on some stuff.

Yes, but do not use gold bars for the purpose!  Cheesy
I keep 1 junk coin backed up by engraving on a 10 Kilo Gold Bar.

Seems legit.
escrow.ms
legendary
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1004
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 20, 2013, 12:11:58 PM
#25
Quote from: ?? on ??
Why complicate? If you have some coins you wanna hoard, move them all to one address, export it's private key and use paper and pen then
store papers on multiple locations. You can use some additional obfuscation methods, like reversing the data, shifting it for 4 chars to right, etc.
Hidding the data in plain sight is by far the best deal possible, like using shopping bills and writting obfuscated private key on them. There is no
way you would realise some of papers around my house are Bitcoin and altcoin private keys, both them and data on them look worthless.

Be creative, and try not to depend on high-tech "solutions".

Yes and you can also encrypt private key to different strong algorithm using crypo.com

You can also watermark some image with your privatekey or hide privatekey inside a image.
or
Get it engraved on some stuff.
grue
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1462
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 20, 2013, 11:33:59 AM
#24
Quote from: Fallout on June 20, 2013, 09:42:25 AM
Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 04:20:15 PM
That's why I said laser printer. Also [citation needed] on laser printers causing lung cancer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_printing#Safety_hazards.2C_health_risks.2C_and_precautions

There are some health risks of laser printers. The question is, how severe are they.
but his claim was "Having a LaserJet printer in your house causes lung cancer.". Worst case scenario: they emit as much particles as a cigarette. not bad, considering you're not printing something every day..
Fallout
member
Activity: 107
Merit: 10
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 20, 2013, 09:42:25 AM
#23
Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 04:20:15 PM
That's why I said laser printer. Also [citation needed] on laser printers causing lung cancer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_printing#Safety_hazards.2C_health_risks.2C_and_precautions

There are some health risks of laser printers. The question is, how severe are they.
tpantlik
full member
Activity: 136
Merit: 100
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 20, 2013, 03:37:52 AM
#22
Quote from: infested999 on June 19, 2013, 11:21:34 AM
Every major storage medium has a flaw in it.

  • Hard Drives are known to fail randomly. Also it would be ridiculous to have a 1TB hard drive for only 1MB of data.
  • Flash Drives are a nightmare when it comes to reliability.
  • CD-Roms are known to "melt" over time, after ~10 years they might fail. Also inefficient to have a 700MB CD for just 1 file.
  • Paper wallets are perfect, but many power users don't have a printer since it is becoming an outdated device. Also some printers may "save" the data printed making it unsafe.
What are the flaws with floppy disks and how do they compare with other storage mediums? Price is not a factor really since you can usually find some disks and you can get the drives for $1. I would enjoy using them because they feel more firm rather than paper or a cheap plastic flash drive.

Dude, never heard of SMART before?

What about backup media? CDs/DVDs made for purpose of backup, costs a little more but can survive hundred years. Combined with some redundancy.

And what about LTO tapes? DAT tapes?

And even encrypted clouds???

And floppies? These are good for this: http://youtu.be/16vcIUY_bAE

EDIT: And the ultimate #1 storage: human brain  Cheesy
grue
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1462
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 19, 2013, 04:20:15 PM
#21
You do realize that with deterministic wallets, you will only have to backup once, right? So all of this discussion is pointless.

Quote from: infested999 on June 19, 2013, 03:11:46 PM
Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
No they don't. They only seem to fail randomly because of confirmation bias (vocal minority crying they lost their data)

You just said they fail randomly!
learn to read. i said them only seem to fail randomly.

Quote from: infested999 on June 19, 2013, 03:11:46 PM
Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
only if you buy some shitty chinese 8 GB flash drive for $4.

Sandisk Cruzer Pop 8GB failed on me 1 week after I bought it.
and none of my flash drives ever failed for me. your point? (hint: anecdotal evidence sucks)

Quote from: infested999 on June 19, 2013, 03:11:46 PM
InkJet printers are awful because you either print every day or your ink dries up. Having a LaserJet printer in your house causes lung cancer.
That's why I said laser printer. Also [citation needed] on laser printers causing lung cancer.
DeathAndTaxes
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1080
Gerald Davis
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 19, 2013, 04:13:40 PM
#20
Of everything mentioned in the thread floppy disks are probably the worst for achrival.

Tape, mDisc, and specifically designed archival CD-ROM are probably your best bet along with plain old paper.
As gglon pointed out above storing the file it makes sense to store it redundantly.  There are a couple of different methods.

Lastly you really should have more than one copy as anything no matter how well designed can fail.  Take a wallet.dat expand it to say 5,000 key keypool put one copy on a mDisc, one copy encrypted in the cloud, and a printout of private keys on paper and with proper storage I would be confident it can be recovered in 10-30 years.

gglon
member
Activity: 64
Merit: 10
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 19, 2013, 04:03:30 PM
#19
If you want to be safe I suggest to multiplicate wallet.dat file into many copies to fill the mass storage (m-disc) to the limit. Then even if say >90% (depends on the storage size and luck) is corrupted, it's still possible to recover data.

If you prefer to have one solid copy use this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpOV6r2vy9Y
though I don't know if the 'printer' stores anything in the memory.
infested999
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 500
Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
June 19, 2013, 03:11:46 PM
#18
    Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
    Quote from: infested999 on June 19, 2013, 11:21:34 AM
    Every major storage medium has a flaw in it.


    Hard Drives are known to fail randomly. Also it would be ridiculous to have a 1TB hard drive for only 1MB of data.[/li][/list]
    No they don't. They only seem to fail randomly because of confirmation bias (vocal minority crying they lost their data)

    You just said they fail randomly!

    Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
    Quote from: infested999 on June 19, 2013, 11:21:34 AM
    Flash Drives are a nightmare when it comes to reliability.
    only if you buy some shitty chinese 8 GB flash drive for $4.

    Sandisk Cruzer Pop 8GB failed on me 1 week after I bought it.

    Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
    Quote from: infested999 on June 19, 2013, 11:21:34 AM
    Paper wallets are perfect, but many power users don't have a printer since it is becoming an outdated device. Also some printers may "save" the data printed making it unsafe.
    wait what? why wouldn't you have a printer? you can get a back and white laser printer for under $100.

    InkJet printers are awful because you either print every day or your ink dries up. Having a LaserJet printer in your house causes lung cancer.
    Jbanna
    full member
    Activity: 151
    Merit: 100
    Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
    June 19, 2013, 02:41:52 PM
    #17
    Perhaps think about backing it up on dropbox. As everyone has said, floppys are extremely inconsistent and offer no advantage.
    ArticMine
    legendary
    Activity: 2282
    Merit: 1050
    Monero Core Team
    Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
    June 19, 2013, 01:59:56 PM
    #16
    Quote from: someguy123 on June 19, 2013, 01:08:35 PM
    Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
    Quote from: Remember remember the 5th of November on June 19, 2013, 12:07:08 PM
    Didn't Google use some kind of tape to store their data, even today in 2013?
    Those are tape drives, which are great for backups. But they are impractical to use because tape readers are rare. They are also subject to the same problem as VHS tapes: they deteriorate over time.
    Tape drives aren't that rare. Many businesses store data on tape because they're actually quite reliable. Unlike hard drives they don't have moving parts, plus they're EXTREMELY cheap. You can get a 1.6 terabyte tape for £15 over here:
    http://www.businessdirect.bt.com/products/sony-lto-ultrium-4-1-6tb-data-cart-4KNR.html?refs=56270000

    Although, tapes are restricted to mostly businesses, because the tape machines are really damn expensive.

    Floppies are one of the worst possible mediums for your wallet though, back on my old laptop, I had floppies that would gain bad sectors within a few days of writing something to them. They're highly volatile to data destruction just from normal use; plus floppy drives are uncommon now, my current PC doesn't even have a CD drive ( I usually use flash media for installing an operating system, and all my games come from services such as Origin and Steam. )

    I would suspect a defective floppy drive on the laptop.
    someguy123
    sr. member
    Activity: 336
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    CEO of Privex Inc. (www.privex.io)
    Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
    June 19, 2013, 01:08:35 PM
    #15
    Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
    Quote from: Remember remember the 5th of November on June 19, 2013, 12:07:08 PM
    Didn't Google use some kind of tape to store their data, even today in 2013?
    Those are tape drives, which are great for backups. But they are impractical to use because tape readers are rare. They are also subject to the same problem as VHS tapes: they deteriorate over time.
    Tape drives aren't that rare. Many businesses store data on tape because they're actually quite reliable. Unlike hard drives they don't have moving parts, plus they're EXTREMELY cheap. You can get a 1.6 terabyte tape for £15 over here:
    http://www.businessdirect.bt.com/products/sony-lto-ultrium-4-1-6tb-data-cart-4KNR.html?refs=56270000

    Although, tapes are restricted to mostly businesses, because the tape machines are really damn expensive.

    Floppies are one of the worst possible mediums for your wallet though, back on my old laptop, I had floppies that would gain bad sectors within a few days of writing something to them. They're highly volatile to data destruction just from normal use; plus floppy drives are uncommon now, my current PC doesn't even have a CD drive ( I usually use flash media for installing an operating system, and all my games come from services such as Origin and Steam. )
    Trongersoll
    hero member
    Activity: 490
    Merit: 501
    Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
    June 19, 2013, 12:43:24 PM
    #14
    Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 12:36:58 PM
    Too bad no one has tape drives.

    um.. i have at least one in an old 486 machine. i really can't see using them for anything. that machine hasn't been run since the first pentiums came out.
    grue
    legendary
    Activity: 2058
    Merit: 1462
    Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
    June 19, 2013, 12:36:58 PM
    #13
    Why don't you backup your wallet in the cloud? just upload an encrypted copy to several cloud storage sites.

    Quote from: Remember remember the 5th of November on June 19, 2013, 12:32:50 PM
    Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
    Quote from: Remember remember the 5th of November on June 19, 2013, 12:07:08 PM
    Didn't Google use some kind of tape to store their data, even today in 2013?
    Those are tape drives, which are great for backups. But they are unsuitable for anything else because they have insane seektimes
    Well I am pretty sure it will be worth the wait considering the data will be just 30-40 bytes for a single key and not a lot more for 100 or 1000.
    Too bad no one has tape drives.
    Remember remember the 5th of November
    legendary
    Activity: 1862
    Merit: 1014
    Reverse engineer from time to time
    Re: Floppy disks viable for wallet.dat storage?
    June 19, 2013, 12:32:50 PM
    #12
    Quote from: grue on June 19, 2013, 12:31:10 PM
    Quote from: Remember remember the 5th of November on June 19, 2013, 12:07:08 PM
    Didn't Google use some kind of tape to store their data, even today in 2013?
    Those are tape drives, which are great for backups. But they are unsuitable for anything else because they have insane seektimes
    Well I am pretty sure it will be worth the wait considering the data will be just 30-40 bytes for a single key and not a lot more for 100 or 1000.
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