for US Citizens: if you use VPN to buy into ICO, can the Government penalize? - page 2.

Alcarin

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Quote from: ciceronyc on September 03, 2017, 12:48:07 PM

Quote from: Alcarin on September 03, 2017, 12:36:38 PM

everyone needs to ignore Traxo for spreading FUD on purpose... he posts his link in every thread... once was enough

he is trying to spread epic FEAR into people!

The article linked makes some solid rational points. As an Early Adoptor, I still believe in doing Due Diligence regarding emerging investment opportunities. The article provides level headed rational arguments worthy of consideration before putting one's hard earned money into ICO's.

Yes, but he created his own thread about it, and now posted it in every semi relevant topic, which is too much energy input for not to gain something... his thread was enough, this is fear spreading on purpose!

ciceronyc

newbie

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Quote from: Alcarin on September 03, 2017, 12:36:38 PM

everyone needs to ignore Traxo for spreading FUD on purpose... he posts his link in every thread... once was enough

he is trying to spread epic FEAR into people!

The article linked makes some solid rational points. As an Early Adoptor, I still believe in doing Due Diligence regarding emerging investment opportunities. The article provides level headed rational arguments worthy of consideration before putting one's hard earned money into ICO's.

hanlieuiypm9832

sr. member

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Merit: 250

As far as I know, some ICO projects will refuse American citizens to join in by show a highlighted reminder on their ICO instructions, and the American IP will be banned to login in.

Alcarin

member

Activity: 144

Merit: 10

everyone needs to ignore Traxo for spreading FUD on purpose... he posts his link in every thread... once was enough

he is trying to spread epic FEAR into people!

ciceronyc

newbie

Activity: 12

Merit: 0

Quote from: Traxo on September 03, 2017, 04:14:31 AM

It's even bloodier than that:

Are Most Cryptocurrencies Doomed to Collapse — because they’re “ICO-issued”?

Excellent reading. It looks like this guy thinks the entire ICO industry could collapse. Worthy of a few re-reads no doubt.
Still at a loss if any solution exists to the ICO

Quote from: 2bfree on September 03, 2017, 05:41:12 AM

Quote from: FelixTheHat on August 31, 2017, 04:49:47 AM

Maybe I am missing something, but everyone here seems to have this backwards. The US government isn't going to come after US citizens who buy coins in an ICO. Why would they? I don't even think there is a law against buying coins.

The law pertains to selling the coins to US citizens, not buying them. If an ICO sells to US citizens, the US government, in all its oppressive fury, can say that the ICO, by selling to US citizens, must comply with US law. Then, they can come down on the ICO founders, destroy them, and take all their money. In the name of justice, of course. It's the American way.

So, naturally, ICOs may not want to do business with US citizens, as they don't want to be subject to draconian US laws. That's why they won't sell to you. They would like your money, but it's just safer to avoid Americans altogether. European banks have been cutting loose their US customers for years now, for similar reasons, making life for US expats nearly impossible.

By lying about who you are, you are exposing an innocent start-up company to the risk of US law destroying them. I suppose that, if they found out, you might be guilty of some kind of breach of contract. It would depend on the laws of the country they are based in, and that would be civil matter anyway - not a criminal matter.

The US government, in fact, might be thrilled by you buying into such an ICO. It gives them an excuse to go after the start-up, squash them and take their money.

I live in a country that hates freedom in East Europe but when I turn on TV all I hear is America is land of the free, are you trying to say that is not true?

Freedom in the USA is over hyped, imho.

2bfree

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I'm investigating Crypto Projects

Quote from: FelixTheHat on August 31, 2017, 04:49:47 AM

Maybe I am missing something, but everyone here seems to have this backwards. The US government isn't going to come after US citizens who buy coins in an ICO. Why would they? I don't even think there is a law against buying coins.

The law pertains to selling the coins to US citizens, not buying them. If an ICO sells to US citizens, the US government, in all its oppressive fury, can say that the ICO, by selling to US citizens, must comply with US law. Then, they can come down on the ICO founders, destroy them, and take all their money. In the name of justice, of course. It's the American way.

So, naturally, ICOs may not want to do business with US citizens, as they don't want to be subject to draconian US laws. That's why they won't sell to you. They would like your money, but it's just safer to avoid Americans altogether. European banks have been cutting loose their US customers for years now, for similar reasons, making life for US expats nearly impossible.

By lying about who you are, you are exposing an innocent start-up company to the risk of US law destroying them. I suppose that, if they found out, you might be guilty of some kind of breach of contract. It would depend on the laws of the country they are based in, and that would be civil matter anyway - not a criminal matter.

The US government, in fact, might be thrilled by you buying into such an ICO. It gives them an excuse to go after the start-up, squash them and take their money.

I live in a country that hates freedom in East Europe but when I turn on TV all I hear is America is land of the free, are you trying to say that is not true?

Koontas

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Questions like this one are a proof for me that there is a real need for anonymous ICOs. Also most of the coins should implement anonymous features like ring sig or zerocoin as default features to prevent government regulations.

Traxo

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Quote from: ciceronyc on September 02, 2017, 10:03:42 PM

Quote from: sephir0th on September 01, 2017, 12:49:57 AM

Quote from: Erowind on August 31, 2017, 09:59:06 PM

I don't think it's illegal for citizens, more like it's illegal for icos to sell to US citizens who not accredited investors.

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2017-131

"The Report confirms that issuers of distributed ledger or blockchain technology-based securities must register offers and sales of such securities unless a valid exemption applies. Those participating in unregistered offerings also may be liable for violations of the securities laws"

Bloody hell. Thanks for sharing that link.

Here's a quote from the full SEC text found at: https://www.sec.gov/litigation/investreport/34-81207.pdf

Quote

Moreover, those who participate in an unregistered offer and sale of securities not subject
to a valid exemption are liable for violating Section 5. See, e.g., Murphy, 626 F.2d at 650-51
(“[T]hose who ha[ve] a necessary role in the transaction are held liable as participants.”) (citing
SEC v. North Am. Research & Dev. Corp., 424 F.2d 63, 81 (2d Cir. 1970); SEC v. Culpepper,
270 F.2d 241, 247 (2d Cir. 1959); SEC v. International Chem. Dev. Corp., 469 F.2d 20, 28 (10th
Cir. 1972); Pennaluna & Co. v. SEC, 410 F.2d 861, 864 n.1, 868 (9th Cir. 1969)); SEC v.
Softpoint, Inc., 958 F. Supp 846, 859-60 (S.D.N.Y. 1997) (“The prohibitions of Section 5 …
sweep[] broadly to encompass ‘any person’ who participates in the offer or sale of an
unregistered, non-exempt security.”); SEC v. Chinese Consol. Benevolent Ass’n., 120 F.2d 738,
740-41 (2d Cir. 1941) (defendant violated Section 5(a) “because it engaged in selling
unregistered securities” issued by a third party “when it solicited offers to buy the securities ‘for
value’”).

It's even bloodier than that:

Are Most Cryptocurrencies Doomed to Collapse — because they’re “ICO-issued”?

_ICOBroker_

newbie

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Anyone that is looking to still participate in upcoming ICO's like Kyber, Enigma, Red Pulse etc, but have problems regarding location restrictions, please consider using our investment service.
For more information, visit http://icobroker.trade/

ciceronyc

newbie

Activity: 12

Merit: 0

Quote from: sephir0th on September 01, 2017, 12:49:57 AM

Quote from: Erowind on August 31, 2017, 09:59:06 PM

I don't think it's illegal for citizens, more like it's illegal for icos to sell to US citizens who not accredited investors.

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2017-131

"The Report confirms that issuers of distributed ledger or blockchain technology-based securities must register offers and sales of such securities unless a valid exemption applies. Those participating in unregistered offerings also may be liable for violations of the securities laws"

Bloody hell. Thanks for sharing that link.

Here's a quote from the full SEC text found at: https://www.sec.gov/litigation/investreport/34-81207.pdf

Quote

Moreover, those who participate in an unregistered offer and sale of securities not subject
to a valid exemption are liable for violating Section 5. See, e.g., Murphy, 626 F.2d at 650-51
(“[T]hose who ha[ve] a necessary role in the transaction are held liable as participants.”) (citing
SEC v. North Am. Research & Dev. Corp., 424 F.2d 63, 81 (2d Cir. 1970); SEC v. Culpepper,
270 F.2d 241, 247 (2d Cir. 1959); SEC v. International Chem. Dev. Corp., 469 F.2d 20, 28 (10th
Cir. 1972); Pennaluna & Co. v. SEC, 410 F.2d 861, 864 n.1, 868 (9th Cir. 1969)); SEC v.
Softpoint, Inc., 958 F. Supp 846, 859-60 (S.D.N.Y. 1997) (“The prohibitions of Section 5 …
sweep[] broadly to encompass ‘any person’ who participates in the offer or sale of an
unregistered, non-exempt security.”); SEC v. Chinese Consol. Benevolent Ass’n., 120 F.2d 738,
740-41 (2d Cir. 1941) (defendant violated Section 5(a) “because it engaged in selling
unregistered securities” issued by a third party “when it solicited offers to buy the securities ‘for
value’”).

NorrisK

legendary

Activity: 1946

Merit: 1007

Quote from: titulng on August 31, 2017, 11:17:35 PM

You can't hide your ID, because the team will ask your KYC, and they will prevent you buying if they know you are from US.

Still, this is mainly only relevent in the later stages and if they host their own platform.

If they are tradable on say the ethereum or waves chain, no ID verification is required.

anylic

full member

Activity: 278

Merit: 115

GIF by SOCIFI

The SEC-controlled projects will not allow USA investors to participate in their projects, and there are some Exchanges that have banned VPS from the USA. The government will not penalize you personally, but perhaps that project will have legal problems and the SEC will intervene

sephir0th

newbie

Activity: 3

Merit: 0

Quote from: Erowind on August 31, 2017, 09:59:06 PM

I don't think it's illegal for citizens, more like it's illegal for icos to sell to US citizens who not accredited investors.

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2017-131

"The Report confirms that issuers of distributed ledger or blockchain technology-based securities must register offers and sales of such securities unless a valid exemption applies. Those participating in unregistered offerings also may be liable for violations of the securities laws"

titulng

sr. member

Activity: 484

Merit: 250

HubrisOne

You can't hide your ID, because the team will ask your KYC, and they will prevent you buying if they know you are from US.

Erowind

full member

Activity: 280

Merit: 100

I don't think it's illegal for citizens, more like it's illegal for icos to sell to US citizens who not accredited investors.

chutchmcgillicutty

sr. member

Activity: 406

Merit: 251

Governments are fucked anyway. I say you do whatever you want and enjoy the ride. If someone tries to shake you down deal with it then

evski

member

Activity: 142

Merit: 10

icos are just protecting themselves from restrictive US regulations, shouldnt effect buyers at all

dbc23

sr. member

Activity: 1036

Merit: 311

Not all ICOs are securities (although most probably are based on SEC's broad statement), even then participation as a citizen is less a concern for the individual as much as it could be for the development team (soliciting illegal securities is a no-no).

With how the blockchain works it would be INSANELY laborious for the IRS/NSA/ETC... to investigate or even identify an individual citizen who holds illegal ICO securities tokens, and I highly doubt they'd give enough of a crap to try to do it even if it was relatively easy unless that individual was a whale (6 digit and up transactions/holdings).

The real takeaway I got from the recent announcements is US citizens shouldn't (or are at least discouraged strongly) from participating in ICOs, especially those of a fund/dividend model design, but the real warning read to me more that they say that because the citizen investore would have little if any recourse to recover their funds or even claim securities fraud at this time.

I'm sure there's work being done at very high levels to understand what this all means and how they WILL eventually regulate it, but right now I think it's just very much a buyer beware situation.

ciceronyc

newbie

Activity: 12

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https://www.forbes.com/sites/ktorpey/2017/08/31/former-sec-attorney-explains-which-ethereum-icos-will-be-targeted-with-regulatory-action/#6f19e4c9eaf7

Still looking for clarity on this.

Quote from: FelixTheHat on August 31, 2017, 04:49:47 AM

Maybe I am missing something, but everyone here seems to have this backwards. The US government isn't going to come after US citizens who buy coins in an ICO. Why would they? I don't even think there is a law against buying coins.

If a person is not an accredited investor at the time they invest in the ICO, then can the SEC punish the person?

Quote from: FelixTheHat on August 31, 2017, 04:49:47 AM

The law pertains to selling the coins to US citizens, not buying them. If an ICO sells to US citizens, the US government, in all its oppressive fury, can say that the ICO, by selling to US citizens, must comply with US law. Then, they can come down on the ICO founders, destroy them, and take all their money. In the name of justice, of course. It's the American way.

Yep, whistleblower bounty, as referenced in the Forbes article above.

Quote from: FelixTheHat on August 31, 2017, 04:49:47 AM

So, naturally, ICOs may not want to do business with US citizens, as they don't want to be subject to draconian US laws. That's why they won't sell to you. They would like your money, but it's just safer to avoid Americans altogether. European banks have been cutting loose their US customers for years now, for similar reasons, making life for US expats nearly impossible.

So can a non-accredited investor who is a US citizen get Estonian E-residency and from that account, invest in ICO's? https://e-resident.gov.ee/

Quote from: FelixTheHat on August 31, 2017, 04:49:47 AM

By lying about who you are, you are exposing an innocent start-up company to the risk of US law destroying them. I suppose that, if they found out, you might be guilty of some kind of breach of contract. It would depend on the laws of the country they are based in, and that would be civil matter anyway - not a criminal matter.

The US government, in fact, might be thrilled by you buying into such an ICO. It gives them an excuse to go after the start-up, squash them and take their money.

Def don't want to lie. This is why I'm doing my due diligence now.

dieselmeister

sr. member

Activity: 546

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US block ICO. Hear China block ICO. I think this is happen only in Asia. Embarrassed

Topic: for US Citizens: if you use VPN to buy into ICO, can the Government penalize? - page 2. (Read 3664 times)