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Topic: FPGA mining for fun and profit (Read 67204 times)

kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
January 06, 2012, 02:01:08 AM
Unfortunately, you won't be making a PCB for the LX-150 on a mill.  It's a 484 pin BGA.  It pretty much demands a MINIMUM 4 layer PCB because of the split power needs (3.3V and 1.2V) and ground.

There are several successful 2-layer miner designs now, with no problem getting 15W+ into the part.
It takes 6-7 mil trace/space, ~12 mil drills and a good soldermask - so it is still definitely not a "CNC-at-home" PCB.

I suppose it helps a lot that bitcoin mining doesn't require much data, so only a few IO pins are needed.  Do you know if these 2 layer boards have any thermal problems?  I know that some BGAs can't dissipate enough heat out the top even with heatsinks.
rph
full member
Activity: 176
Merit: 100
January 05, 2012, 11:25:42 PM
Unfortunately, you won't be making a PCB for the LX-150 on a mill.  It's a 484 pin BGA.  It pretty much demands a MINIMUM 4 layer PCB because of the split power needs (3.3V and 1.2V) and ground.

There are several successful 2-layer miner designs now, with no problem getting 15W+ into the part.
It takes 6-7 mil trace/space, ~12 mil drills and a good soldermask - so it is still definitely not a "CNC-at-home" PCB.

-rph
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
January 05, 2012, 12:26:50 PM
Currently, the Xilinx Spartan 6 LX-150 is the most common FPGA used for bitcoin mining.  GITHUB has an open source FPGA Miner for this chip, and ztex.de does as well.

Unfortunately, you won't be making a PCB for the LX-150 on a mill.  It's a 484 pin BGA.  It pretty much demands a MINIMUM 4 layer PCB because of the split power needs (3.3V and 1.2V) and ground.

Enigma
Thanks for the heads up, I was just curious as to the process and what not my background is Comp Sci, not so much Comp/Electrical Eng so I don't know much about FPGA's.

I hope that at some point in 2012, I can come back and reread this post and understand what all of these words/letters/numbers mean, haha.

Would a glossary help?

Xilinx is a chip maker.  Spartan 6 is a line of FPGA chips.  LX-150 is a model in that line.

FPGA means Field Programmable Gate Array.  It is a chip with a large number of generic logic gates and programmable interconnections.  This means that it can be configured and reconfigured to do different tasks as needed.  Think of it as a CPU that can be optimized for a particular job.  That's a bit of a simplification, but I think it gives you the idea. 

Github is a public source code repository.  Someone has posted source code that can be loaded into a LX-150 FPGA chip to configure it as a miner.  ztex.de also hosts similar software.

PCB is a printed circuit board, the flat board that electronic components are usually attached to.  Most of them are green.  The board itself is usually a composite insulator material with sheets of copper bonded on the flat sides and then partially removed to leave different connections and circuits.  Commercial boards are etched with acid, but a variety of methods are used for prototyping and home production.  Milling when a rotary tool is used to mechanically cut out portions of the copper layer, usually using a computer controlled machine (a CNC mill, but that's just another acronym to define).  Connections between the sides are done by drilling the board and connecting the copper traces on both sides.  In commercial boards, interconnects are electroplated chemically using processes that aren't generally possible at home, so homemade boards usually use pieces of wire soldered on both sides.

Boards with more than two layers can be made by stacking single sided boards onto a dual layer board so that you end up with alternating layers of copper and insulator.  In commercial boards, the interconnect holes are plated as each layer is added, so it is possible to connect any layer to any other layer.  This is nearly impossible on homemade boards, which is unfortunate because you really need those internal connections (called "blind vias") when working with BGA chips.

BGA means Ball Grid Array.  It means that the chip's pins are all on the bottom, and not along the sides.  The chip is manufactured with a square grid of solder balls on the bottom of the chip, and it is placed onto a PCB with a matching square grid of copper pads and the assembly is heated in an oven until the solder melts and connects the board to the chip.  Because the grid has hundreds of balls (484 in this case) with very tight spacing, there is no room for all of the traces to leave the area on the surface, so they must be connected to internal layers in the board stack and routed out.  Even doing it with 4 layers is rough, 6 is way better.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1031
January 05, 2012, 05:33:04 AM
Currently, the Xilinx Spartan 6 LX-150 is the most common FPGA used for bitcoin mining.  GITHUB has an open source FPGA Miner for this chip, and ztex.de does as well.

Unfortunately, you won't be making a PCB for the LX-150 on a mill.  It's a 484 pin BGA.  It pretty much demands a MINIMUM 4 layer PCB because of the split power needs (3.3V and 1.2V) and ground.

Enigma
Thanks for the heads up, I was just curious as to the process and what not my background is Comp Sci, not so much Comp/Electrical Eng so I don't know much about FPGA's.

I hope that at some point in 2012, I can come back and reread this post and understand what all of these words/letters/numbers mean, haha.
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
January 05, 2012, 01:09:27 AM
Currently, the Xilinx Spartan 6 LX-150 is the most common FPGA used for bitcoin mining.  GITHUB has an open source FPGA Miner for this chip, and ztex.de does as well.

Unfortunately, you won't be making a PCB for the LX-150 on a mill.  It's a 484 pin BGA.  It pretty much demands a MINIMUM 4 layer PCB because of the split power needs (3.3V and 1.2V) and ground.

Enigma
Thanks for the heads up, I was just curious as to the process and what not my background is Comp Sci, not so much Comp/Electrical Eng so I don't know much about FPGA's.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
January 05, 2012, 12:44:43 AM
I'd be willing to finance engineers to build a solution then I will resell it,
but first i need to know what to tell them?

Can we use this board?
http://www.knjn.com/FPGA-PCIe.html

I have one of these for sale if anyone is interested.  Brand new, never used.  PM if interested.  I just never got around to that project.
full member
Activity: 180
Merit: 100
January 04, 2012, 11:31:34 PM
Currently, the Xilinx Spartan 6 LX-150 is the most common FPGA used for bitcoin mining.  GITHUB has an open source FPGA Miner for this chip, and ztex.de does as well.

Unfortunately, you won't be making a PCB for the LX-150 on a mill.  It's a 484 pin BGA.  It pretty much demands a MINIMUM 4 layer PCB because of the split power needs (3.3V and 1.2V) and ground.

Enigma
full member
Activity: 128
Merit: 100
January 04, 2012, 11:10:51 PM
I'm actually curious about FPGA's is there like a list of component/design files floating around that anyone knows of?  I'd like to read more into it and maybe construct my own since I have access to a pcb mill and soldering tools.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
January 04, 2012, 08:15:27 PM
Hard at work is all I can report.

I see... Good news then Wink Good luck!

Thanks. Sorry we've been so quiet. I'm glad to see that Bitcoin has turned the corner after the summers' scathing press coverage etc. The mainstream seems to be picking up on the actual utility of it, which is nice.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 502
January 04, 2012, 08:07:30 PM
Hard at work is all I can report.

I see... Good news then Wink Good luck!
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
January 04, 2012, 08:05:25 PM
We've obviously looked at this a great deal at LargeCoin. The cost of fabbing a profitable Bitcoin ASIC is $500,000. This is the cost when you use a structure ASIC solution, and there isn't any way to get it below $500,000 - believe me, we have tried.

Structured ASIC processes definitely remove a lot of the complexity of ASIC fabrication versus standard cell or full custom processes. However, you are still dealing with the fabrication of an immensely complex integrated circuit with millions of tiny little wires in it. Getting the design right so that the first batch works means spending lots of money on sophisticated software and engineering talent - and that's just not cheap.

If you want to run off a few chips in an academic process, by all means go for it. That's a great hobby level activity. However, we found through our extensive analysis that nothing short of a structured ASIC process can give you the scale and volume that you need to generate enough money from your efforts to be well compensated for the investment.

Are there any news regarding the progress of your product?

Hard at work is all I can report.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 502
January 04, 2012, 08:00:46 PM
We've obviously looked at this a great deal at LargeCoin. The cost of fabbing a profitable Bitcoin ASIC is $500,000. This is the cost when you use a structure ASIC solution, and there isn't any way to get it below $500,000 - believe me, we have tried.

Structured ASIC processes definitely remove a lot of the complexity of ASIC fabrication versus standard cell or full custom processes. However, you are still dealing with the fabrication of an immensely complex integrated circuit with millions of tiny little wires in it. Getting the design right so that the first batch works means spending lots of money on sophisticated software and engineering talent - and that's just not cheap.

If you want to run off a few chips in an academic process, by all means go for it. That's a great hobby level activity. However, we found through our extensive analysis that nothing short of a structured ASIC process can give you the scale and volume that you need to generate enough money from your efforts to be well compensated for the investment.

Are there any news regarding the progress of your product?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
January 04, 2012, 07:20:58 PM
At what price does an ASIC batch start at ?

(rough estimate please)

You can get a design into a shared wafer for as little as $25,000. In some countries there are academic fabs that make chips for student projects, etc.. and these can be had for much less, but you need the hookups. You also pay a lot less for older processes.

FWIW I haven't been able to get a quote under $70,000 out of MOSIS, which handles the majority of academic chip fabbing.

Usually "the hookups" equals "fab has been hiring our lab's graduate students for a decade now and wants to keep the supply steady".  In which case there's actually more remuneration going on above and beyond dollars changing hands.

We've obviously looked at this a great deal at LargeCoin. The cost of fabbing a profitable Bitcoin ASIC is $500,000. This is the cost when you use a structure ASIC solution, and there isn't any way to get it below $500,000 - believe me, we have tried.

Structured ASIC processes definitely remove a lot of the complexity of ASIC fabrication versus standard cell or full custom processes. However, you are still dealing with the fabrication of an immensely complex integrated circuit with millions of tiny little wires in it. Getting the design right so that the first batch works means spending lots of money on sophisticated software and engineering talent - and that's just not cheap.

If you want to run off a few chips in an academic process, by all means go for it. That's a great hobby level activity. However, we found through our extensive analysis that nothing short of a structured ASIC process can give you the scale and volume that you need to generate enough money from your efforts to be well compensated for the investment.
newbie
Activity: 30
Merit: 0
September 16, 2011, 08:52:40 PM
At what price does an ASIC batch start at ?

(rough estimate please)

You can get a design into a shared wafer for as little as $25,000. In some countries there are academic fabs that make chips for student projects, etc.. and these can be had for much less, but you need the hookups. You also pay a lot less for older processes.

FWIW I haven't been able to get a quote under $70,000 out of MOSIS, which handles the majority of academic chip fabbing.

Usually "the hookups" equals "fab has been hiring our lab's graduate students for a decade now and wants to keep the supply steady".  In which case there's actually more remuneration going on above and beyond dollars changing hands.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
September 16, 2011, 07:51:50 PM
You guys might want to take a look at a new thread I started regarding a design that we're looking to sell. We think it is a very competitive offering but we don't have the time or energy to take this to market. Check out the highlights here and let me know what you think of the performance, power and cost numbers.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/fpga-miner-design-for-sale-to-someone-willing-to-market-it-44391

legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1000
Freelance videographer
September 16, 2011, 05:20:51 PM
Is it possible to have an FPGA or ASIC board that runs independantly from a computer but has flash memory onboard,built in Wi-fi or Ethernet,and has it's own power supply as I wish to bypass the computer competely and save loads of energy while mining lots more.How much would these boards cost and for what performance/power use can I expect from them? Can yiu ship to UK? Do you have a shop?

member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
June 04, 2011, 09:05:43 AM
At what price does an ASIC batch start at ?

(rough estimate please)

You can get a design into a shared wafer for as little as $25,000. In some countries there are academic fabs that make chips for student projects, etc.. and these can be had for much less, but you need the hookups. You also pay a lot less for older processes.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
May 30, 2011, 08:50:42 PM
http://www.edaboard.com/thread115517.htm

That discussion is a couple of years old.

Also see this PDF, also a bit old:  http://www-ee.ccny.cuny.edu/www/web/xchen/StructuredASIC.pdf
donator
Activity: 1731
Merit: 1008
May 30, 2011, 07:29:02 PM
At what price does an ASIC batch start at ?

(rough estimate please)
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
May 30, 2011, 06:35:05 PM
Also, you will not see a bitcoin ASIC. Complex ASICs required highly skilled (read: expensive) engineers and even more expensive processes to put them into place. When there is already a very good solution to the problem (GPUs) and an enormously volatile and unpredictable exchange rate, you're not going to see such an investment. Not to mention that investors in such a project would almost certainly demand immediate cashing out of mining proceeds to pay off their investment, which would put significant downward pressure on the exchange rate. ASIC mining is a pipe dream.

I hate to disappoint you...

Unless you're referring to those had to read your vague half sentence, I don't think you've disappointed anyone.

Are you suggesting that you know of someone putting millions of dollars into developing a custom ASIC for mining?



Sorry for being vague. Yes, it will be announced soon that someone is putting a great deal of capital into custom mining hardware. Getting a few ASICs produced using a shared wafer process is not particularly expensive. This is larger scale.
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