20kevin20, why you did not read my post about change path attacks? What you are referring to is something completely different, and if you read the topic from the beginning it is quite clear that OP is not a beginner and that he has not downloaded a fake wallet. If that was the case, then the attacker would have emptied his entire wallet, because in that case he would have access to everything.
You also forget that OP uses a hardware wallet, and Electrum is just a UI. Any action need to be approved by clicking button on Ledger, no modified Electrum is capable of it (as far we know).
I'm afraid this is much more complicated than any ordinary hack we've seen before.
Topic: Fraudulent transaction along with the correct one(Ledger Nano S + Electrum) (Read 510 times)
February 21, 2020, 06:53:55 AM
February 21, 2020, 05:54:12 AM
I see. I'll have to arrive home and I'll look more things up to see if I find anything helpful.
I'm honestly surprised Ledger didn't try helping you out with finding where the problem is, knowing it could turn out to be a huge vulnerability nobody's found before.. especially because it's supposed not to be able to send any tx without physical confirmation..
I'm honestly surprised Ledger didn't try helping you out with finding where the problem is, knowing it could turn out to be a huge vulnerability nobody's found before.. especially because it's supposed not to be able to send any tx without physical confirmation..
Well, they tried, but I guess that without having access to the machine they only can try to replicate the bug using the high-level specs (Windows 10 1903/Electrum 3.3.8/Device firmware 1.6.0 BTC app 1.3.16).
Considering how widely used this setup is, and given that I didn't manage to find anything similar reported in the last 6m/1y, it's not so surprising that it's very hard to replicate otherwise hundres/thousands of reports would be made ...
February 21, 2020, 05:49:32 AM
I see. I'll have to arrive home and I'll look more things up to see if I find anything helpful.
I'm honestly surprised Ledger didn't try helping you out with finding where the problem is, knowing it could turn out to be a huge vulnerability nobody's found before.. especially because it's supposed not to be able to send any tx without physical confirmation..
I'm honestly surprised Ledger didn't try helping you out with finding where the problem is, knowing it could turn out to be a huge vulnerability nobody's found before.. especially because it's supposed not to be able to send any tx without physical confirmation..
February 21, 2020, 05:10:38 AM
It's not that you've downloaded a compromised wallet. From my understanding, there was an exploit in the official version of Electrum that let hackers display a fake update notification. Those who've updated through that notification have updated to a modified version of Electrum.
And if I got it all right, I believe the servers removed by MB were servers through which you've got the malicious update of your Electrum.
If you read the MalwareBytes article, you'd get an idea of what has probably happened.
And if I got it all right, I believe the servers removed by MB were servers through which you've got the malicious update of your Electrum.
If you read the MalwareBytes article, you'd get an idea of what has probably happened.
Yes the malicious servers were sending a link to a malware advertising it as update in the wallet's GUI, but I didn't get this sort of message as I only installed the 3.3.8 version which doesn't allow this anymore (and thus didn't do the "update"). So even if the two servers mentioned were part of that attack, I don't see what they could have done in my case ...
And even if the 3.3.8 I installed from the official website was still a malware (because I didn't check the PGP signature on my initial download) I still can't see how the fake Electrum managed to hide the fraud transaction in Ledger's display.
If anyone could modify Electrum in a way in which it can by itself do this (without having access to the physical device) then I would consider my problem "solved" ...
February 21, 2020, 05:05:52 AM
It's not that you've downloaded a compromised wallet. From my understanding, there was an exploit in the official version of Electrum that let hackers display a fake update notification. Those who've updated through that notification have updated to a modified version of Electrum.
And if I got it all right, I believe the servers removed by MB were servers through which you've got the malicious update of your Electrum.
If you read the MalwareBytes article, you'd get an idea of what has probably happened.
And if I got it all right, I believe the servers removed by MB were servers through which you've got the malicious update of your Electrum.
If you read the MalwareBytes article, you'd get an idea of what has probably happened.
February 21, 2020, 04:57:31 AM
February 20, 2020, 07:51:29 PM
Something smells fishy to me here. I've taken a look over all the posts on this thread and, according to #4, the address 34Y6nb5SRxAGkozUpyKa59Qq7f87acC98s, which OP confirmed was one of the addresses he used as an input in one of his transactions, is listed right next to its private key on https://bitkeys.work/?page=725.
I'm confused, to be honest.
Edit: apparently the website generates a random private key for the richest wallets, hoping to collide with the address.. I thought it was one of these "all BTC private keys" websites.
Still, the Google search I've done linked me to the report above. Hence, OP might've downloaded an infected Electrum wallet..
Edit 2: I've done another search for the second server MalwareBytes categorized as a "Phishing". According to this link I found,
In other words, OP has fallen victim to a phishing attack... Press CTRL + F and look for "exs.ignorelist.com" and "endthefed.onthewifi.com", you can find them in the code above. I'm sorry, OP.
Please take measures ASAP to secure all your funds before they'll steal more out of your wallets..If you connect your computer to the internet again after reinstalling the OS, please make sure the software you install is legit.
We're talking about very large amounts at stake, so taking appropriate measures against phishing might save you from another disaster. I really wish I could've helped with the recovery of your funds..
Apparently my attempt to do an extensive research of the MB detection from the first few posts of the thread turned out to be just a shitty failure in the end. Will try to look up the change path scenario Lucius has linked and anything useful will be posted on the thread.
February 20, 2020, 09:50:44 AM
Otherwise I have no idea what the hell could've happened.. Have you tried contacting Ledger? Maybe they've got the right person to help you out. AFAIK, in these cases they'll ask you to send the possibly compromised device for further testing.
Look at post number 10 in this topic, there is link which explain change path attack, which for now is the only thing that makes sense, because apparently the missing assets were not actually stolen, but were hidden somewhere in Ledger. It is also strange that only one problematic transaction took place and that the OP successfully moved the rest of the coins to safety without repeating a similar incident.
The OP contacted Ledger, but to my knowledge, they were unable to help him. It might make sense to contact Saleem Rashid who showed a great deal of knowledge 2 years ago when he discovered some vulnerabilities in Ledger Nano S. I see he is still active and there is e-mail/twitter in his contact info :
https://saleemrashid.com/
February 20, 2020, 08:35:31 AM
I'm still wondering in what circumstances this possible hack took place. One thing I can think of is that someone might've physically altered your device to get the funds transferred from your device to their wallet, although the chances are slight considering not many know what the hell a Ledger even is. But it's worth giving it a thought.
Otherwise I have no idea what the hell could've happened.. Have you tried contacting Ledger? Maybe they've got the right person to help you out. AFAIK, in these cases they'll ask you to send the possibly compromised device for further testing.
Otherwise I have no idea what the hell could've happened.. Have you tried contacting Ledger? Maybe they've got the right person to help you out. AFAIK, in these cases they'll ask you to send the possibly compromised device for further testing.
February 20, 2020, 06:58:57 AM
from where you bought your Ledger? maybe it is fake, or you upgraded firmware with a fake one that do dirty thing just once (just a suggestion)
check your device:
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002481534-Check-if-device-is-genuine
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005321449
also look here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/bhb2o2/warning_weve_detected_a_malware_that_locally/
check your device:
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002481534-Check-if-device-is-genuine
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005321449
also look here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/bhb2o2/warning_weve_detected_a_malware_that_locally/
Bought the Ledger Nano S from their website more than 2 years ago, did multiple transactions during this time with it without any issues.
Can't exclude the fact that the firmware was somehow compromised during this time, even if I don't know how it's possible to do it.
Didn't open the device to check if it's genuine yet, in case it gets to the police and they need it.
About the malware that replaces Ledger Live and asks for the seed (or any other malware/social engineering attack that asks for the seed), it didn't happen ...
February 20, 2020, 06:47:16 AM
from where you bought your Ledger? maybe it is fake, or you upgraded firmware with a fake one that do dirty thing just once (just a suggestion)
check your device:
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002481534-Check-if-device-is-genuine
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005321449
also look here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/bhb2o2/warning_weve_detected_a_malware_that_locally/
check your device:
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002481534-Check-if-device-is-genuine
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005321449
also look here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/bhb2o2/warning_weve_detected_a_malware_that_locally/
February 20, 2020, 05:29:30 AM
Have you tried creating a wallet account on Ledger Live to see if the BTC shows up as missing there too? If it's an Electrum bug, it must show up in Ledger Live. I think Magnum Wallet (no need to download it) works as well with the Bitcoin wallet on your Nano S. Suggesting this in order to see whether it's Electrum's fault or there's a serious security risk with the hardware wallet. If the latter is the case, then I gotta put mine away for the time being. 
Hi,
The "false" transaction appears in the Ledger Live as well, even with "Extended account search" (what does this even do precisely ? what derivation paths does it look into ?) and Custom gap limit = 999 ...
Additionally, I generated about 50m addresses from my mnemonic with the most used derivation paths and variable ranges where I thought the coins might be, but didn't manage to find this address ...
I honestly looked a lot into this and I couldn't find anything similar to this described over the internet (well, at least not recently) so I think that the conditions needed to replicate this bug/exploit are very specific, I wouldn't worry about it too much if i was you ... (hell, if you manage to replicate this, you can claim a bounty with Ledger which in most cases will be bigger than the lost amount ...).
When sending the remaining coins to a custodian afterwards, I restored my wallet from the seed to a new Ledger device and used the new one to sign on an offline machine the last transaction which went through properly, so I guess you can do this if you're worried ...
February 20, 2020, 05:07:19 AM
Have you tried creating a wallet account on Ledger Live to see if the BTC shows up as missing there too? If it's an Electrum bug, it must show up in Ledger Live. I think Magnum Wallet (no need to download it) works as well with the Bitcoin wallet on your Nano S. Suggesting this in order to see whether it's Electrum's fault or there's a serious security risk with the hardware wallet. If the latter is the case, then I gotta put mine away for the time being.
February 20, 2020, 04:42:48 AM
Actually it is very well imaginable that your OS is compromised.
Nothing stops malware from generating transactions and sending them to your ledger for your to accept/verify them.
A locktime of 1 could mean that the person creating the malware/transaction simply just wanted to have the tx to be confirmed as fast as possible (i.e. can be confirmed in the next block) without checking the current block etc.
The safety which comes from using a hardware wallet is, that the transaction details shown to you on the HW screen can not be manipulated and that you actively have to confirm the transactions by pressing a button.
But if your OS is compromised, he definitely can just create transactions and send them to your HW wallet in hope for you to accept them. Waiting until one is created by electrum seems a not too dumb move which might have caught some people off-guard.
And honestly i'd think that your OS is compromised, than that this is a bug from electrum and/or ledger.
Nothing stops malware from generating transactions and sending them to your ledger for your to accept/verify them.
A locktime of 1 could mean that the person creating the malware/transaction simply just wanted to have the tx to be confirmed as fast as possible (i.e. can be confirmed in the next block) without checking the current block etc.
The safety which comes from using a hardware wallet is, that the transaction details shown to you on the HW screen can not be manipulated and that you actively have to confirm the transactions by pressing a button.
But if your OS is compromised, he definitely can just create transactions and send them to your HW wallet in hope for you to accept them. Waiting until one is created by electrum seems a not too dumb move which might have caught some people off-guard.
And honestly i'd think that your OS is compromised, than that this is a bug from electrum and/or ledger.
Thank you for your answers.
Indeed, when I make any transaction I assume my OS is compromised so I check properly the details on my screen.
Even in this case, I did check them properly (the proof being that the first intended transaction was properly sent).
The only way for me to accidentally accept another transaction would be after pressing the "Validate transaction" for the first one, to press "accidentally" a few times the right button without looking at the new transaction details and then validate it by pressing both buttons, which, while not impossible, is very hard to believe ...
I'm still scratching my head on this btw, so if someone at least has other ideas on how it might have happened (even assuming compromised OS etc) please let me know.
February 19, 2020, 10:01:23 AM
Nothing stops malware from generating transactions and sending them to your ledger for your to accept/verify them.
I'd guess that OP would have seen on his Ledger the new transaction he has to confirm and would have rejected it...
And in such a case this whole topic would have no substance.
February 19, 2020, 09:27:30 AM
Actually it is very well imaginable that your OS is compromised.
Nothing stops malware from generating transactions and sending them to your ledger for your to accept/verify them.
A locktime of 1 could mean that the person creating the malware/transaction simply just wanted to have the tx to be confirmed as fast as possible (i.e. can be confirmed in the next block) without checking the current block etc.
The safety which comes from using a hardware wallet is, that the transaction details shown to you on the HW screen can not be manipulated and that you actively have to confirm the transactions by pressing a button.
But if your OS is compromised, he definitely can just create transactions and send them to your HW wallet in hope for you to accept them. Waiting until one is created by electrum seems a not too dumb move which might have caught some people off-guard.
And honestly i'd think that your OS is compromised, than that this is a bug from electrum and/or ledger.
Nothing stops malware from generating transactions and sending them to your ledger for your to accept/verify them.
A locktime of 1 could mean that the person creating the malware/transaction simply just wanted to have the tx to be confirmed as fast as possible (i.e. can be confirmed in the next block) without checking the current block etc.
The safety which comes from using a hardware wallet is, that the transaction details shown to you on the HW screen can not be manipulated and that you actively have to confirm the transactions by pressing a button.
But if your OS is compromised, he definitely can just create transactions and send them to your HW wallet in hope for you to accept them. Waiting until one is created by electrum seems a not too dumb move which might have caught some people off-guard.
And honestly i'd think that your OS is compromised, than that this is a bug from electrum and/or ledger.
February 16, 2020, 07:34:39 AM
This might be the solution here, one can only hope.
Unfortunately, I just cited one pretty harmless example that was easily fixable because it was my recklessness and ignorance about how Ledger checks all the generated addresses. This of course could be corrected with Electrum gap limit increase, but in the case of OP, something made a transaction which he did not approve, and for which he could not determine whether it was a hack or a change path attack.
The only positive thing about this is the possibility that it is an address that is possibly part of a wallet, but as far as I understand from the description of the attack, finding that address is extremely difficult.
February 15, 2020, 02:34:39 PM
I have something similar in past when I play with change address from Ledger, and one transaction was invisible because Ledger Chrome app was set to not check all addresses. I fix that in Electrum with increasing the gap limit. If only the solution would be so easy in your case...
This might be the solution here, one can only hope.
It's disturbing because it seems like this points to a bug with either the Ledger or Electrum. I don't see anything the OP could have done to cause it, so it's probably not an operator error. I use a different hardware wallet myself, but I use Electrum, and own a Ledger. If this an issue with Electrum it may not be limited to one brand of hardware wallet, which is quite concerning.
February 13, 2020, 10:31:09 AM
Electrum_LedgerNS_Issue, is there any new information regarding your case? I see that the problematic transaction is still intact/unspent which can be a good sign (if it is not in the classical hack), which means that there is still hope for a solution.
I have something similar in past when I play with change address from Ledger, and one transaction was invisible because Ledger Chrome app was set to not check all addresses. I fix that in Electrum with increasing the gap limit. If only the solution would be so easy in your case...
I have something similar in past when I play with change address from Ledger, and one transaction was invisible because Ledger Chrome app was set to not check all addresses. I fix that in Electrum with increasing the gap limit. If only the solution would be so easy in your case...
Hi Lucius,
Unfortunately nothing new for now. I've generated about 50m addresses from my mnemonic seed by now on the derivation ranges I thought probable, but no luck so far.
I'm pretty much trying to understand what happened at this point, can't do much without knowing what went wrong, generating addresses is a shot in the dark.
I guess I'll need to get the help of a digital forensic and try to find a trace of the receiving address on my machine.
February 13, 2020, 10:05:09 AM
Electrum_LedgerNS_Issue, is there any new information regarding your case? I see that the problematic transaction is still intact/unspent which can be a good sign (if it is not in the classical hack), which means that there is still hope for a solution.
I have something similar in past when I play with change address from Ledger, and one transaction was invisible because Ledger Chrome app was set to not check all addresses. I fix that in Electrum with increasing the gap limit. If only the solution would be so easy in your case...
I have something similar in past when I play with change address from Ledger, and one transaction was invisible because Ledger Chrome app was set to not check all addresses. I fix that in Electrum with increasing the gap limit. If only the solution would be so easy in your case...
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