Pages:
Author

Topic: Free markets and social problems: - page 5. (Read 8711 times)

sr. member
Activity: 385
Merit: 250
February 05, 2012, 10:04:45 PM
#36
Many in this thread cling to the immature and naive belief that freedom as they see it is a natural consequence of nature if governmental bodies don't exist. Sorry to burst your fantasy, but freedom as you see it does not naturally arise in the absence of government.

Sure it does, so long as you have the force capable of stopping any infringement from occurring, using an eye for an eye justice system that had worked so well for thousands of years. People would learn very quickly the perils of infringing on another, so they would move to weaker targets or change their ways.

Don't you see the fallacies of your fantasies? Let's review:

Sure it does, so long as you have the force capable of stopping any infringement from occurring, using an eye for an eye justice system that had worked so well for thousands of years.

What if you don't have the force capable of stopping said infringement? You're assuming everyone has that power and strength.

Citing barbaric traditions of the past is hardly the model of freedom you're looking for.

People would learn very quickly the perils of infringing on another, so they would move to weaker targets or change their ways.

I guess the weaker targets aren't deserving of freedom then.

Seriously, go rethink your ideas for a few years and come back when you're eighteen.

At least in my solution there is a realistic expectation of protecting oneself instead of relying on the police who only react to crime, not prevent it... and the criminal will actually learn from their crimes and not be constantly traveling through a revolving door because an eye for an eye is way worse than 3 hots and a cot in prison.

In fact, according to Warren v. District of Columbia, the supreme court held and affirmed that the police have absolutely no obligation to protect a citizen unless under special circumstances, like being detained or while in custody.

You think and eye for an eye is barbaric? I agree. Almost as barbaric as the criminal infringing upon me or my family.

Not to be unfeeling, but weak people who refuse to prepare and protect their families deserve whatever they get. All they have to do is educate themselves, buy weapons, learn how to use them safely, and practice. Confidance will come with experience and repitition. Physical defense classes may also as well as build confidance. Also they should build community support structures for assistance.

The thing many do not realize is that it does not matter what the law says or how the police react. There is so much crime today specifically because of the high chance they wont be caught and disciplined. They know most homes and families are not prepared to be infringed upon. They know most soley rely on the cops who only react. They know the government is trying to take the guns. They know hunting is decreasing becasue of the over harvesting of antlerless deer herds, which frustrates hunters, meaning less hunting and less guns.

In the end the only rights you have will be taken away if you lack the ability to defend those rights from infringement. Criminals could care less about laws when they want what you got and no oneor nothing is around to stop them.

A criminal could come over to your house right now and do what they want regardless of the law and the police, and there would be nothing you could do about it if their force was greater than yours. If your force was greater than their and they knew there was a high likelihood you would kill or maim them, they would avoid you like the plague.

Most simply do not understand the mind of a criminal.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
February 05, 2012, 09:08:46 PM
#35
Many in this thread cling to the immature and naive belief that freedom as they see it is a natural consequence of nature if governmental bodies don't exist. Sorry to burst your fantasy, but freedom as you see it does not naturally arise in the absence of government.

Sure it does, so long as you have the force capable of stopping any infringement from occurring, using an eye for an eye justice system that had worked so well for thousands of years. People would learn very quickly the perils of infringing on another, so they would move to weaker targets or change their ways.

Don't you see the fallacies of your fantasies? Let's review:

Sure it does, so long as you have the force capable of stopping any infringement from occurring, using an eye for an eye justice system that had worked so well for thousands of years.

What if you don't have the force capable of stopping said infringement? You're assuming everyone has that power and strength.

Citing barbaric traditions of the past is hardly the model of freedom you're looking for.

People would learn very quickly the perils of infringing on another, so they would move to weaker targets or change their ways.

I guess the weaker targets aren't deserving of freedom then.

Seriously, go rethink your ideas for a few years and come back when you're eighteen.
sr. member
Activity: 385
Merit: 250
February 05, 2012, 08:12:35 PM
#34
Many in this thread cling to the immature and naive belief that freedom as they see it is a natural consequence of nature if governmental bodies don't exist. Sorry to burst your fantasy, but freedom as you see it does not naturally arise in the absence of government.

Sure it does, so long as you have the force capable of stopping any infringement from occurring, using an eye for an eye justice system that had worked so well for thousands of years. People would learn very quickly the perils of infringing on another, so they would move to weaker targets or change their ways. I think expecting the government to take on all responsibility iny our life to be the more immature choice... but in reality we dont have much of a choice until millions stand in unison against the current system, but they need to wake up first. I would have no qualms with shooting a criminal bent on depriving me or my loved ones of their rights, nor metering out eye for an eye discipline/punishment.

Jim says, "hey bill, how'd you lose your finger?"

Bill replies, "I stole from a guy and he cut it off after he shot me."

Bill was talking to Jim while they were working. Bill realised its safer to get a job instead of stealing.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
February 05, 2012, 07:58:35 PM
#33
Many in this thread cling to the immature and naive belief that freedom as they see it is a natural consequence of nature if governmental bodies don't exist. Sorry to burst your fantasy, but freedom as you see it does not naturally arise in the absence of government.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
February 05, 2012, 07:03:07 PM
#32
You do not need to be oppressed to have a master. Oppression only happens when you behave 'badly' according to those with more firepower than you. That is, you aim to rebel or harm anyone with the ability to harm you back. In America, everyone has the right to own guns, so oppression is more difficult than say, China.

In a democratic state, our masters are each other. My original point stands.

Your original point is that a man in Boston is under an illusion if he thinks he is free.  Now you say he is not free because he and his neighbours are oppressing one another.  I suppose they do horrible things like weekly bin collections and employing dog catchers?

What? He is not free, but believes he is free. This is not a contradiction. We once believed an atom was indivisible, but that proved untrue, and both ideas are still irrelevant to most people. Belief has nothing to do with reality, and we can function perfectly well with this being the case.

He gives up freedom when he respects the laws which govern him and his neighbor. Oppression is a specific definition of unjust burden, and not the only result of removing freedom - modern democracies are also a form of removing freedom; all the goodness with just a hint of oppression. I would even say that the only difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy, the oppression is more equally shared between those in power and those not.

Do you not see that you are defining freedom in a way that is unique to you?  The citizen in Boston who votes for his representatives, has his rights respected and benefits from a vibrant civic society is the very definition of a free man.

Are you doing differently? Just using a google definition: Freedom is the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint. "Playing nice" includes sometimes restraining oneself.

Having his rights respected implies others will restrain themselves when they want to exercise their 'freedom'. This creates a paradox for freedom, as the prerequisite of restraint removes their power to act in the first place. This is why I say there cannot exist a freedom without restraint, but we must believe it to exist to get on with things. Hence the illusion. If you have the right to act in a violent manner towards your neighbor, can you still do so without hindrance in any democracy? Even a boxing match has rules.
sr. member
Activity: 385
Merit: 250
February 05, 2012, 06:33:05 PM
#31
\All it takes to be enslaved is to be unvoluntarily obligated.

And birth as a human pretty much takes care of that, right?

right
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
February 05, 2012, 05:50:55 PM
#30

If modern people in democratic states are not free, who is our master?

Rather than offer any counter argument to show them invalid, or any substance of your own, you try to belittle me?

If you ask "Who are our masters", the answer becomes more obvious.

No it doesn't.

Really, if you are not free, someone or some group is oppressing you.  For example, in China, I can see its the Communists and in Bahrain, I can see its the Sunnis.  

In the US, who is oppressing you?

You do not need to be oppressed to have a master. Oppression only happens when you behave 'badly' according to those with more firepower than you. That is, you aim to rebel or harm anyone with the ability to harm you back. In America, everyone has the right to own guns, so oppression is more difficult than say, China.

In a democratic state, our masters are each other. My original point stands.

Your original point is that a man in Boston is under an illusion if he thinks he is free.  Now you say he is not free because he and his neighbours are oppressing one another.  I suppose they do horrible things like weekly bin collections and employing dog catchers?

Do you not see that you are defining freedom in a way that is unique to you?  The citizen in Boston who votes for his representatives, has his rights respected and benefits from a vibrant civic society is the very definition of a free man.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
February 05, 2012, 05:50:47 PM
#29
\All it takes to be enslaved is to be unvoluntarily obligated.

And birth as a human pretty much takes care of that, right?
sr. member
Activity: 385
Merit: 250
February 05, 2012, 05:45:54 PM
#28

If modern people in democratic states are not free, who is our master?

Rather than offer any counter argument to show them invalid, or any substance of your own, you try to belittle me?

If you ask "Who are our masters", the answer becomes more obvious.

No it doesn't.

Really, if you are not free, someone or some group is oppressing you.  For example, in China, I can see its the Communists and in Bahrain, I can see its the Sunnis.  

In the US, who is oppressing you?

You do not need to be oppressed to have a master. Oppression only happens when you behave 'badly' according to those with more firepower than you. That is, you aim to rebel or harm anyone with the ability to harm you back. In America, everyone has the right to own guns, so oppression is more difficult than say, China.

In a democratic state, our masters are each other. My original point stands.

All it takes to be enslaved is to be unvoluntarily obligated.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
February 05, 2012, 05:42:58 PM
#27

If modern people in democratic states are not free, who is our master?

Rather than offer any counter argument to show them invalid, or any substance of your own, you try to belittle me?

If you ask "Who are our masters", the answer becomes more obvious.

No it doesn't.

Really, if you are not free, someone or some group is oppressing you.  For example, in China, I can see its the Communists and in Bahrain, I can see its the Sunnis.  

In the US, who is oppressing you?

You do not need to be oppressed to have a master. Oppression only happens when you behave 'badly' according to those with more firepower than you - not all slaves were beaten to made work. That is, you aim to rebel or harm anyone with the ability to harm you back. In America, everyone has the right to own guns, so oppression is more difficult than say, China.

In a democratic state, our masters are each other. My original point stands.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
February 05, 2012, 04:37:05 PM
#26
In the US, who is oppressing you?

Stop paying your property tax and find out. Stop paying your income tax and find out.

Paying taxes is not oppression in a democracy.

Indeed, it's the consequences of not paying taxes where the oppression comes in.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/04/192423.html

That's oppression.  Stop being a baby.

You are arguing scale.

If you live in a country where the taxes you pay are set by a democratically elected body, then you are being silly to call taxation oppression.  The scale is not the issue - its the emotional immaturity that is the problem.

In Syria, the Alevi government is determined to maintain power against a Sunni Muslim majority because they believe they are a superior race that came from the stars.  In your country, there is no such group oppressing you. 
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
February 05, 2012, 04:17:01 PM
#25
In the US, who is oppressing you?

Stop paying your property tax and find out. Stop paying your income tax and find out.

Paying taxes is not oppression in a democracy.

Indeed, it's the consequences of not paying taxes where the oppression comes in.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/04/192423.html

That's oppression.  Stop being a baby.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
February 05, 2012, 04:05:41 PM
#24
In the US, who is oppressing you?

Stop paying your property tax and find out. Stop paying your income tax and find out.

Paying taxes is not oppression in a democracy.

This oppression: http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/04/192423.html 400 people killed because they are not the right religion to have a decent life in Syria.  Paying taxes to provide the services your community uses does not compare.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
February 05, 2012, 04:02:07 PM
#23
I'm pretty sure it isn't so easy. The FED and associated banks have tools with which to threaten politicians.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
February 05, 2012, 04:00:41 PM
#22
...
In the US, who is oppressing you?

The entity which has monopoly on money printing not accountable to elected govt.

Nonsense.  The Fed is a government creation and would be abolished tomorrow if Ron Paul had the votes. 

Do try to come up with something that really affects your freedom.  Pointing to government employees that can be removed if the elected representatives so choose is a bit feeble.
hero member
Activity: 496
Merit: 500
February 05, 2012, 03:08:36 PM
#21
...
In the US, who is oppressing you?

The entity which has monopoly on money printing not accountable to elected govt.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
February 05, 2012, 08:47:06 AM
#20
So is an American citizen living in Boston in his own house a free man?

No, save for the illusion of it. There is no available claim on this planet without contest, so the Boston man is shackled to a society (where can he go and stake an uncontested claim without an army?). His house is only his by law, the tenet of which is to refuse the freedoms of everyone else over that land. The system that gives him freedom over his own property is the same system that denies him freedom on every other. So, it is an illusion.

Ah yet another "omg I am really a slave" poster.

If modern people in democratic states are not free, who is our master?

Rather than offer any counter argument to show them invalid, or any substance of your own, you try to belittle me?

If you ask "Who are our masters", the answer becomes more obvious.

No it doesn't.

Really, if you are not free, someone or some group is oppressing you.  For example, in China, I can see its the Communists and in Bahrain, I can see its the Sunnis.  

In the US, who is oppressing you?
sr. member
Activity: 385
Merit: 250
February 05, 2012, 08:45:11 AM
#19
Didn't the industrial revolution make slavery less economical before governments took action?

Specifically where? As I understand it, the U.S. was unique in requiring a bloody civil war to "end slavery". Quotes because I don't think that's why the U.S. fought a bloody civil war.

You are absolutely correct.

The civil war was not about ending slavery. It was to supposedly "Save The Union". Abolition was a by product.

Lincoln wrote to Joshua Speed in 1855:
Quote from: President Abraham Lincoln
How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be take pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy

Lincoln wrote a letter in response to an editorial by Horace Greeley of the New York Tribune which had urged complete abolition:
Quote from: President Abraham Lincoln
I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.
 I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.

Lincoln wrote to James C. Conkling on August 26, 1863:
Quote from: President Abraham Lincoln
There was more than a year and a half of trial to suppress the rebellion before the proclamation issued, the last one hundred days of which passed under an explicit notice that it was coming, unless averted by those in revolt, returning to their allegiance. The war has certainly progressed as favorably for us, since the issue of proclamation as before. I know, as fully as one can know the opinions of others, that some of the commanders of our armies in the field who have given us our most important successes believe the emancipation policy and the use of the colored troops constitute the heaviest blow yet dealt to the Rebellion, and that at least one of these important successes could not have been achieved when it was but for the aid of black soldiers. Among the commanders holding these views are some who have never had any affinity with what is called abolitionism or with the Republican party policies but who held them purely as military opinions. I submit these opinions as being entitled to some weight against the objections often urged that emancipation and arming the blacks are unwise as military measures and were not adopted as such in good faith.
 You say you will not fight to free negroes. Some of them seem willing to fight for you; but, no matter. Fight you, then exclusively to save the Union. I issued the proclamation on purpose to aid you in saving the Union. Whenever you shall have conquered all resistance to the Union, if I shall urge you to continue fighting, it will be an apt time, then, for you to declare you will not fight to free negroes.
 
I thought that in your struggle for the Union, to whatever extent the negroes should cease helping the enemy, to that extent it weakened the enemy in his resistance to you. Do you think differently? I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union. Does it appear otherwise to you? But negroes, like other people, act upon motives. Why should they do any thing for us, if we will do nothing for them? If they stake their lives for us, they must be prompted by the strongest motive—even the promise of freedom. And the promise being made, must be kept.

Lincoln stated in a October 16, 1854 speech that:
Quote from: President Abraham Lincoln
My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia,—to their own native land. But a moment’s reflection would convince me that whatever of high hope (as I think there is) there may be in this, in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible.

In analyzing Lincoln's position, historian Eugene H. Berwanger notes:
Quote from: Eugene H. Berwanger
During his presidency, Lincoln took a reasoned course which helped the federal government both destroy slavery and advance the cause of black suffrage. For a man who had denied both reforms four years earlier, Lincoln's change in attitude was rapid and decisive. He was both open-minded and perceptive to the needs of his nation in a postwar era. Once committed to a principle, Lincoln moved toward it with steady, determined progress.
newbie
Activity: 34
Merit: 0
February 05, 2012, 05:46:18 AM
#18
Depending on how loosely you define the term "slave", most men throughout history have been slaves: to a tribe, to a king, or to a state.  If you wish, you could define slavery in such a way so that the population of Western societies are considered "slaves".  Whether this is a useful term to apply to the members of Western society depends on your specific value scale.  Certainly, if they are slaves, they are the most pampered and prosperous slaves in the history of the species.  Given a choice, it seems feasible to me that most people would choose to be a middle class "slave" in the United States than a "free-man" living in the Scottish highlands.  However, those who love rustic living, kilts and the ability to distill and sell alcohol would likely choose the "free" Scottish life-style over the pampered, yet enslaved, existence of iPhones, XBoxes and internet.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
February 05, 2012, 03:53:45 AM
#17
So is an American citizen living in Boston in his own house a free man?

No, save for the illusion of it. There is no available claim on this planet without contest, so the Boston man is shackled to a society (where can he go and stake an uncontested claim without an army?). His house is only his by law, the tenet of which is to refuse the freedoms of everyone else over that land. The system that gives him freedom over his own property is the same system that denies him freedom on every other. So, it is an illusion.

Ah yet another "omg I am really a slave" poster.

If modern people in democratic states are not free, who is our master?

Rather than offer any counter argument to show them invalid, or any substance of your own, you try to belittle me?

If you ask "Who are our masters", the answer becomes more obvious.
Pages:
Jump to: