Free natural gas, is it worth it to use a Natural gas generator?

NotFuzzyWarm

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damn it, ya got me curious...
Search Google using something like cummins generators natural gas or Onan, or other maker. Lots comes up like these used ones . I'd think there are smaller ones around for the under 100kw market as well.

That rather brings up an important question: How much gas (what rate of flow or max volume per-month) does your contract allow? There should be something about it. If not, ever think of setting up a micro-grid for your area? Wink

For an economics back-of-a-napkin:
You said your rate is $0.07/kWh? Using that and a 300kW load running 24x7 and a standard of 30-day month/12month I get an yearly electric bill of $181,440. If your current area power feed is not setup to give you that, tack on what the Utility or Co-op will charge you to run the power to your location.

Balance that against acquisition, transport, and installation plus maint contract costs of a NG fueled prime-power rated genset over a few years and play with the scenarios. Especially do not forget about the IRS's Section-179 Capital Equipment deduction for small businesses. Good for up to $500k this year

NotFuzzyWarm

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Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 29, 2017, 10:25:14 PM

Using an induction motor as a generator means that it will self sync to the grid, thus no switching needed. The downside is that unlike a permanent magnet alternator, using it off grid is especially tricky.

Make friends with a mechanic and you should be able to convert an old car engine to run on natural gas.

Folks, this is not a hobbyist DIY project where failure(s) is an option. Throw in the fact that they are looking for well over 50kw to around 350kw and you are talking serious - and dangerous - amounts of power. This is not something to be built using farmer ingenuity and making do with what is on-hand.

They are looking at industrial-scale mining and that means them using equipment designed for it and building the needed infra per-code. Prime-power gensets are made for 24x7x365 operation. They do NOT have to be 'rested'. Yes prime-power generators will from time to time need to be taken offline for inspection and that interval is normally once per-year. Barring needing to replace a shaft bearing or rings, normal in-depth inspection and service only takes a few hours. Oil and filter changes are typically done every 1000 hours and are done with the system running.

It's been several decades since I was around one (only power at a remote military radio site on island) but point is they can be more reliable than AC power from the grid in that you know when it needs to go offline and can plan for that year or more interval. Barring that down time they-just-work day-in and day-out.

nydiacaskey01

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Quote from: jchi2210 on August 27, 2017, 05:38:03 PM

Hey guys, my land has a LARGE natural gas well under it that we used to have a contract with a company that would buy it off of us. They no longer do so and we have been using it for our own purposes. I was just wondering if it would be feasible to purchase a natural gas generator that could produce electricity for 10 to 20 antminers? I have 1 S9 right now but have plans on expanding to about 10 S9's and 8 D3's and a couple of L3's. Just wondering what anyone else thinks. I'm not sure if a Natural gas generator can produce enough electric to run this many? I know that there is a lot of NG left in the well that we have been using for years.

This natural gas generators don't come cheap and they require regular maintenance when they reach a certain time of usage like every 15,000 hours. You will not buy only 1 natural gas generator, you need 3 of them so that you will not run the generator 24/7, one should rest while the other is operational, the 3rd generator is your spare in case 1 is under maintenance. This will also require a dedicated power house with a good insulation so that noise will be reduced.

NiHaoMike

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Using an induction motor as a generator means that it will self sync to the grid, thus no switching needed. The downside is that unlike a permanent magnet alternator, using it off grid is especially tricky.

Make friends with a mechanic and you should be able to convert an old car engine to run on natural gas.

NotFuzzyWarm

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^^ is wrong.
You are talking about this being a business. As such taking the quick-cheap route is idiotic. Do it right to begin with or live with the consequences. Yes a prime-power generator is $$$ but beats the hell out of powering down/up the mine every day/week to change the oil and probably cheaper than buying 2x lower-grade ones.

In the US as a small business you can write off almost all of capital equipment costs. For 2017 it can be up to $500k. For a handy bit on capital equipment cost deductions ref IRS section-179

FYI the IRS views miner equipment the same as any office PC or data server - it is just a specialized computer. As for taxes to be paid on coins earned - only the value of what is converted to fiat is taxed. Coins not exchanged are not taxed. Is treated much the same as the Metals market - the IRS does not care if you own gold or other metals, they only care when you cash out.

Khurram Bin Kamal

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Gas generator supply around 80 % of their capacity and it is safe to use around 80 % so for 200 miners you would bec requiring arkund 350 kw of generation power
If you buy generator that is suitable for 24×7 days non stop these types are very expensive CATERPILLAR type generators but those still have to be stopped after sometime for maintaninace
If I would be you I would buy 2 or 3 generators which can run for 8 to 12 hours and can be switched alternately they 're less expensive and require less maintenance

NotFuzzyWarm

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Quote

would a 300Kw generator be able to power about 200 miners running at 1500 watts? Maybe less to be on the safe side? Or is my restriction going to come from the output of Amps? I think each of these ASICs use about 5-6 Amps a piece right?

The 5-6 amps each depends on what the AC line voltage is. That would be for using 240-208V.

For a start, all you care about is how many kw does it put out and is it 208-240VAC. For wire and distribution panel sizing reference 300kw @ 240V = 1,250A Current = W/V

Yes is straight math. 200 miners @ 1,500w = 300kw

jchi2210

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Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on August 28, 2017, 10:31:22 PM

I did find this GE site for their Thunder Pumpkins designed expressly for raw NG/methane fuels. https://www.gepower.com/gas/reciprocating-engines/waukesha/vhp 350KW on up...

By the way, I appreciate you helping me look into this as I am definitely thinking about going this route as my cheapest electric is about 7 to 8 cents a kw/h.

jchi2210

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Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on August 28, 2017, 10:31:22 PM

I did find this GE site for their Thunder Pumpkins designed expressly for raw NG/methane fuels. https://www.gepower.com/gas/reciprocating-engines/waukesha/vhp 350KW on up...

That's funny that you're still looking! I was literally just combing through the internet looking as well lol. That would be more than enough for a large operation! I'm not very good with electric but would a 300Kw generator be able to power about 200 miners running at 1500 watts? Maybe less to be on the safe side? Or is my restriction going to come from the output of Amps? I think each of these ASICs use about 5-6 Amps a piece right?

I'm just wondering how much that big hunk of metal would cost me up front lol. I have plenty of investors to go in with me on this but we are looking to see how feasible a generator would be. I think it would be extremely worth it if we had a operation of about 100 to 200 ASICS running. Mainly antminers.

NotFuzzyWarm

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I did find this GE site for their Thunder Pumpkins designed expressly for raw NG/methane fuels. https://www.gepower.com/gas/reciprocating-engines/waukesha/vhp 350KW on up...

NotFuzzyWarm

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Easily.
With reasonable scheduled maint they should last years if not decades running 24x7. Remember, very often they are the only source of heavy AC power at mine sites not to mention also used for power on islands and other remote populated area not served by a grid. Things to look for mainly deal with the oil system - should be able to be serviced without stopping the engine. Outputs probably start at 50-75kW and I've seen some rated over 2MW and yes those were fed from a gas well.

jchi2210

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Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on August 28, 2017, 07:49:29 AM

No idea on price as I've never had reason to look. I will say that I expect the one gotcha on the used equipment market will be that most you find will be either diesel or gas powered. Gasoline fueled can be easily changed to use natural gas with a carburetor kit, not sure if diesel engines can use it so probably I'd first search to see what are available for commercially available NG conversion kits.

What do you think the life expectancy is on these things if I find a really good one and keep up regular maintenance on it? I figure if I go this route I will be running it constantly throughout the year so realistically speaking I would be putting 8760 hours on it a year. I should be able to get a couple of years of life out of one shouldn't I?

NotFuzzyWarm

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No idea on price as I've never had reason to look. I will say that I expect the one gotcha on the used equipment market will be that most you find will be either diesel or gas powered. Gasoline fueled can be easily changed to use natural gas with a carburetor kit, not sure if diesel engines can use it so probably I'd first search to see what are available for commercially available NG conversion kits.

NiHaoMike

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Get an old car engine, couple it to an industrial electric motor, and have a go at it! The nice part of using an induction motor as a generator is that it inherently self syncs to the grid and also doubles as the starter. (Will probably need a "hard start kit" to get enough torque to crank the engine.) Gear it so that the engine runs at 1200-1800RPM or so, then measure amperage to set the throttle level.

jchi2210

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Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on August 27, 2017, 09:30:56 PM

I've talked about this before and yes it is VERY viable provided you get a commercial generator intended to be a prime-power source. Most are intended only to be be used as standby gensets and that means max continuous run times are typically 40-120 hours before needing to be stopped for oil changes and other maint. Prime power sources are made to run for months at a time.

Any mining in the area where you might find some used site power generators?
Maybe search for used mining equipment sites?
This also applies to cattle farms with manure digesters (for methane gas).

Great idea! We actually have loads of cattle farms in my area (I live in Oklahoma). We also have about 3 coal mining sites in the vicinity so I may get lucky. So I need to find a used one in good enough shape to run for months at a time. How much do you think I should spend on one? I will start off with 10 or so miners and work my way up so I am expecting to spend about $9,000 to $10,000 a year in electricity. maybe a little less if winter last a bit longer.

NotFuzzyWarm

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Evil beware: We have waffles!

I've talked about this before and yes it is VERY viable provided you get a commercial generator intended to be a prime-power source. Most are intended only to be be used as standby gensets and that means max continuous run times are typically 40-120 hours before needing to be stopped for oil changes and other maint. Prime power sources are made to run for months at a time.

Any mining in the area where you might find some used site power generators?
Maybe search for used mining equipment sites?
This also applies to cattle farms with manure digesters (for methane gas).

jchi2210

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I live out of town so noise shouldn't be an issue with neighbors.

Quote from: Khurram Bin Kamal on August 27, 2017, 06:52:45 PM

There are Natural gas generators which starts from 6 kw to 200 kw but are very expensive and you can't run them for 24 hours so you have to buy at least 3 generators to run 8 hours each.
First you must check the quality of your gas and assuming that a company was extracting gas from ground the fittings will be there so you can rent a gas generator and try to run on that gas if it works fine than go for a big generator. For 20 antminer 27 kw you will probably need generator of around 35 kw.
With free gas your per unit cost of electricity for maintenance and depreciation will be around 0.04 US$ so it's highly profitable but you have to be very cautious about the maintenance of generators you just can't leave them like antminer

I was thinking about getting one that has a 200 amp breaker box on it and using it. Since a S9 runs nearly 6 amps a piece I should be safe running 20 miners off of a generator that can handle 200 amps. But like you said, I need one that can run constantly and not be an issue. Pretty much one that can be a power plant. I know a lot of professionals that can install it for me for fairly cheap. The problem is finding one that can run consistently.

Khurram Bin Kamal

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There are Natural gas generators which starts from 6 kw to 200 kw but are very expensive and you can't run them for 24 hours so you have to buy at least 3 generators to run 8 hours each.
First you must check the quality of your gas and assuming that a company was extracting gas from ground the fittings will be there so you can rent a gas generator and try to run on that gas if it works fine than go for a big generator. For 20 antminer 27 kw you will probably need generator of around 35 kw.
With free gas your per unit cost of electricity for maintenance and depreciation will be around 0.04 US$ so it's highly profitable but you have to be very cautious about the maintenance of generators you just can't leave them like antminer

inevertell

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Do you want to do it by oneself? If you dont have any experience do not even try.

QuintLeo

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Should be a viable idea, as long as your neighbors aren't close enough to object to the noise level *OR* you have a very good muffler setup on it to keep it quiet enough.

Natural-gas powered generators come in many sizes, up to POWER COMPANY MAIN GENERATOR level.

Topic: Free natural gas, is it worth it to use a Natural gas generator? (Read 1313 times)