Topic: Freedom and Responsibility - or: why you FAILED if you lost money in MBC crash - page 2. (Read 9403 times)

The only truly valuable things we have are the relationships we develop with other people. Money is ultimately just an idea, and the amplified emotional force of losing it is ultimately a result of the monetary system in which we have developed. Criminal behavior and monetary losses will continue to be ubiquitous until such time as we decide to leave this outdated and increasingly destructive system behind and start using our reason to provide for and care about all of our fellow human beings.

Ultimately, money does not care for or about us. We should stop caring for and about it.

I wouldn't say it is of lower risk than any other online crimes - unless you are really really careful you can eventually be tracked down. There are no well-established and provably secure ways to absolutely decouple the stolen Bitcoins from any traces to your identity if you plan on actually using them.

I'm sure with Bitcoin becoming more mature, there will be services to somehow mark and trace stolen Bitcoins, correlate them with known identities and detect and maybe reverse some types of mixing strategies. With all the history of Bitcoin being unerasably stored for eternity, future law enforcement techniques will probably be able to effectively investigate all major Bitcoin thefts of the past. With more and more victims, some lawyers might even make good money by specializing on such services.

The bigger the theft, the harder it is to get away with it. I for sure wouldn't feel very safe if I had stolen tens of thousands of Bitcoins...

That’s true, but with Bitcoin, it is much easier to go undetected, the risk of facing any consequences is significantly reduced. Have you seen one Bitcoin villain face any law enforcement or even some kind of vigilante yet?

In the real world it’s high risk, high profit, but with us it’s low risk and high profit, so it’s much more attractive. Until we finally learn.

Bruce, my sincere condolences to you and all the other people who have suffered a loss from this tragedy. Your enthusiasm has always been inspiring and I really hope that you will get over this and find back to your cheerful nature. I'm sure people are not blaming you - you always acted on good faith!

+1

We're all in this together - even if you are not affected personally, this incident is surely going to have an effect on how the world views Bitcoin. Let's not blame the victims but see how we can learn from this and stand together as a community, helping Bitcoin to get up on its feet again.

Contrary to the saying, crime often does pay in the real world - regardless of the currency, so I don't see how anyone can blame Bitcoin for that. Bitcoin is real money and people steal Bitcoins and betray with them just like they do with other currencies.

You don't see big headlines all the time for all the useful things people do with their Bitcoins however.

Good on you Bruce.
It's a tough way to learn a lesson.

Tempered by experience - you're well placed to track the fast-paced bitcoin world, asking the tough questions while sharing the excitement of new developments.

I've always enjoyed your optimism and infectious enthusiasm..  Don't lose that!

Who is responsible then? Noone?

I hate seeing a second early adopter lose 25k BTC and even worse many other people with him. If even we can’t secure our Bitcoins, even with the help of third parties, then how the hell are non-technical people supposed to?

The worst thing about this is that early adopters are losing Bitcoins they would probably invest back into the Bitcoin economy/infrastructure, losing them to people who will rather just sell them for fiat money.

Bitcoin is quite a useless currency if it continues to be more profitable to steal and betray than to do productive things in order to earn them.

+1

This really sucks I have no words for this. You of all people on this forum deserved this the least. Good luck from here...

Exactly... this was an incredible setback in getting bitcoin adopted by the rest of the people. No matter what happens now, you did a great job trying.

All the armchair anarchists here can take a lesson from you... the amount of victim blaming here going on is abnormal.

This was the oldest, longest standing bitcoin eWallet site in existence.   It had a strong record of stability.   It had been around nearly since the beginning of bitcoin itself.    People who trusted using an eWallet at all...  trusted it.   It had 10s of thousands of account holders.   Some of the smartest, most reputable, long-standing bitcoin community leaders used it.    Only two people ever complained about me recommending it.   But neither could ( or were willing to ) give me any concrete reasons why they shouldn't be trusted.... other than, "I just have a bad feeling about them."    At the time, that sounded like saying the same thing about MtGox.  They had never given me, or any other users any reason to believe that they were not reputable.   Also, it was by far --- and still to this day --- the easiest and most feature rich eWallet in existence.

You have no idea how much I regret recommending mybitcoin.com   I  do not have suicidal tendencies.    I have been through things even worse than this in my life.    What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

In a few hours from now...  tomorrow morning.... I will tape an episode of The Bitcoin Show as a monologue....  just me, talking about all of this... all of my thoughts and feelings and lessons learned.... and my new convictions and new directions of advocacy ( as I'm sure you can guess what they include )...

I have not lost any faith in Bitcoin, nor in OnlyOneTV.    It has brought me back down to earth..... and HARD....  slammed my face down on the pavement.   I am no expert, and I try to emphasize that as often as possible.    But, at the same time,  I do not take my responsibility as "someone people listen to" lightly.    The pain of losing 25,000 of my own bitcoin is nothing.   Nothing at all.    Compared to the pain of knowing that my recommendations have led to the loss of so many others.   That tears my heart out.   You have no idea how much.

At first, it felt like I was kicked in the gut by an angry horse.   I've felt that pain in my gut constantly every since.   But on top of that, moments later, the realization that everyone I know and love and care about....  and how many other strangers who listen to me....  have lost their bitcoin in this as well....   and I've pretty much not stopped crying since Friday.    Even though I have been at the office, and I have put on a normal face for people...    That's why you haven't seen me on the air.     I have to regain my composure, get it together, get my head and my thoughts together, determine where to go from here, and what to say to the audience.

The worst is facing all the people I love most in my life....  and telling them what happened.... one by one.    They trusted my advice without hesitation.    And now I have to tell them what happened.    I suspect that nothing that could happen to me in my life will ever cause me as much pain as I am experiencing right now....  just thinking of how I will tell them.   These are not techie geeks like you guys.   These are normal people.   They are not to blame.   And, yes, in hindsight, I should have known better.   Hindsight is so 20/20.

How could you miss this one?
5.5  bitomat (Poland) - worlds 3rd largest bitcoin exchange 'loses' entire BTC holdings (estimate 17000 coins?)

Hmm..  lets recap

1.   Mtgox gets hacked.   Funds stolen,  hashed password list published to internet
2.   Allinvain's computer gets hacked.  25,000 BTC stolen
3.   Coinpal gets paypal accounts frozen
4.   bitcoin4cash.com complains of postal strikes ... does not honor locked in trades
5.   TradeHill drops Dwolla
6.   Mybitcoin.com disappears
7.   Virus appears in wild that steals wallets

Could be that bitcoin in general needs a better track record.   Just something to think about.

I fully agree with the Op, I honestly don't understand how someone can trust an online service. Sony got hacked yet many people beleived a site like MBC would be safe even though it held real money. For all we know Google might get hacked by a few smart people in a few years. Things like those are bound to happen sooner or later.

Asssume for a second they have the equivalent of USD 500k in BTC. Now do a small calculation on whether it would make sense to hire a full time employee hacking the website for a full year. Is it worth it? Now think about salaries in some poor countries...


I am ok with someone storing his life-savings in an online wallet but I am not ok with the complaints that pop up when all the money is suddenly gone.

Some things are just bound to happen...

Exactly, this.

Hundreds of accounts were cleared out, I believe over 4000 BTC in total, all to the very same address. 3 friends of mine lost funds in that one, all of them went to the same address.

+1

Thanks for pointing out the larger context: that Bruce has made great contributions and by all accounts has the best of intentions.
Bruce appears to be a great person and leader with a lot of potential. I also hope he keeps his perspective: that this is just a bump in the road of life.
(I did not like writing about Bruce's role in this, but I thought it needed to be said, and others would probably say it less nicely.)

Speaking of Bruce...

I sure hope that he is OK in all of this.  He obviously had a lot of hope, energy, and passion for the project.  I hope he is not prone to suicidal tendencies or anything like that, is strong enough to look at the whole picture, and experienced enough to know that all things pass.   (It seems at this point that...) Ya, he fucked up.  Big time.  But he is not the only one and he has done a lot of very good work for a very important project and that has not gone away.  I personally appreciate his work a lot and hope not only that he recovers but continues to contribute.

OK. Pop Quiz.

A couple weeks ago a gentleman posted on the boards that he had created a bitcoin bond and was selling it at a price which guaranteed a very high annualized return. My immediate question was: Did you include your name, address, phone #, soc sec#, or other information that would allow me to sue you if you do not pay? The answer was (paraphrased) "No, I am conducting an experiment to see if folks will trust an anonymous internet identity."

Question: Should you invest?
......
Answer: Of course not. That would be silly.
However, folks did buy those bitcoin bonds! I think that is pretty much what this thread is about.

I cannot imagine giving a penny to anyone without confirming their real world identity unless I was prepared to lose that money.

Folks are saying that they were fooled because mybitcoin.com had a good reputation. I have some sympathy for these folks (although I think they are far more trusting than I am). The reputation of a site is built on the reputation of the folks behind it or the folks recommending it. Considering that we do not even know for sure who was actually running mybitcoin.com, I will assume it was the latter that built the "falsely positive reputation" that folks depended on.

Which brings me to Bruce Wagner. I like Bruce. I like his show and his enthusiasm. He seems pretty smart, too. But the idea that he referenced a service without confirmation of real identity is very hard to understand. It is one thing to take such a risk yourself. It is quite another, especially if you are an expert with a reputation, to be advising others without full disclosure of the risks. I really hope Bruce was clear about those risks or, frankly, I would have a hard time showing my face around here again if I were him.

In conclusion, Bruce and anyone else who mentioned mybitcoin.com, without stating that they have not personally confirmed the trustworthiness of that site, should regret that they did that and should refrain from doing that for other services in the future.

Regardless. If you choose to store a valuable commodity such as bitcoin on some random ass server (don't give me this "well-repped" speech. Sony couldn't even keep their database secured and they make billions of dollars per year) without doing any homework, you're pretty much asking for it.

If you travel a lot, ever heard of a USB drive? It was a public server holding tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of bitcoins and (as far as anyone knows) no one taking care of the site. Use your brains...

I guess I'd much rather not be the one to have their funds stolen, then sit back and say "Well, that shouldn't have happened... at least it wasn't my fault!"

Are you insane? The blame squarely lies with the perpetrator not the victim. The prepretrator is solely at fault for the misdeeds.

Could the victim(s) have done more to protect themselves? Perhaps. But does their failing to protect themselves provide any justification for a thief? No.

Have you not found a wallet or seen property such as cash just lying around which you could take and probably never be caught? Personally, I have helped locate the true owners of lost property on multiple occasions; property I could have kept if I wanted to and faced no repercussions. But I am not that type of person.

Freedom and responsibility are about being the type of person who can live in a free society; not about protecting yourself from the type of people who cannot. Freedom is an internal, not external, state of being.

Some of us are not forum trolls hanging out here 24/7 and where unaware of past issues with mybitcoin, as you know from being a forum geek that many people and sites have recomended mybitcoin for storing your coins, this appealed to me due to my constant working away in diffrent countries, So mybitcoin seemed a good solution. I did'nt bother to check for valid mybitcoin email contact due to it had a good reputation at the time I signed up. Its ashame the little teen forum trolls like your self has to come and brag how good they are.