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Topic: Funding of network security with infinite block sizes - page 6. (Read 24528 times)

legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1150
Assuming equivalent UIs, what theoretical advantages to your third party off-chain service provide have that zero confirmation Bitcoin transactions don't already provide?

Privacy, and the best way to achieve that, chaum signatures, is inherently irreversible and instant as well.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
People are conducting transactions using Bitcoin, and complaints about transaction times only arise in a tiny minority of instances, therefore transaction time is not a problem.

Actually I've noticed more and more threads lately about confirmation time stretching over an hour, I think due to Bitcoin growing in general, hence more transactions. Aside from that if you poll the community on whether they would rather have instantly trustworthy transfers or deal with confirmations I'd be willing to put bitcoins on what the result would be.

In addition to this, Bitcoin confirmation is faster than any other means of online transaction, when you compare like to like.

Please be practical. We're not out to dissect bitcoin and financial services. We're simply asking what people would likely prefer to do in the future.

An "instant" PayPal transfer is reversible for at least several months, and probably indefinitely.

The thing about reversibility is not important for the majority of transactions, which are largely legal. If you pay a dentist, or for a cup of coffee are you really thinking reversibility will be an issue? Also, a company can offer a no-reverse transaction option.

Bitcoin transaction also show up within a matter of seconds and are typically irreversible within an hour.

A Bitcoin transaction merely showing up is not considered by the community (for good reason) to be a good indicator a transaction is valid. I've addressed reversibility above.

Assuming equivalent UIs, what theoretical advantages to your third party off-chain service provide have that zero confirmation Bitcoin transactions don't already provide?

Assurance the transaction is valid.

Although I've got other things to do I'm happy to continue addressing your concerns to try and convince you, because I think I'm right. However, if you are unwilling to be convinced please let me know so we can save both of us and this thread some time.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1009
I agree about the interface. I was mostly referring to confirmation time. When you say in practice Bitcoin confirmation time isn't a problem are you speaking for yourself or everyone?
People are conducting transactions using Bitcoin, and complaints about transaction times only arise in a tiny minority of instances, therefore transaction time is not a problem.

In addition to this, Bitcoin confirmation is faster than any other means of online transaction, when you compare like to like. An "instant" PayPal transfer is reversible for at least several months, and probably indefinitely. Bitcoin transaction also show up within a matter of seconds and are typically irreversible within an hour.

Assuming equivalent UIs, what theoretical advantages to your third party off-chain service provide have that zero confirmation Bitcoin transactions don't already provide?
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
This is a false dichotomy. The same interface can be built for either type of system and in practice transaction confirmation time in Bitcoin isn't a problem.

I agree about the interface. I was mostly referring to confirmation time. When you say in practice Bitcoin confirmation time (which is unpredictable and can stretch over an hour) isn't a problem are you speaking for yourself or everyone?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1009
If you could send bitcoins to any person or business now, like you currently can with the block-chain, but the option was available with PayPal-like interface and immediacy which would you choose for common legal transactions?
This is a false dichotomy. The same interface can be built for either type of system and in practice transaction confirmation time in Bitcoin isn't a problem.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
Let me ask you something. Do you think most people in the world would want to?
I don't know and neither do you.

So let's not take the option away from them before we find out.

Well, let me ask it another way. If you could send bitcoins to any person or business now, like you currently can with the block-chain, but the option was available with PayPal-like interface and immediacy which would you choose for common legal transactions? You really think that's unpredictable?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1009
Let me ask you something. Do you think most people in the world would want to?
I don't know and neither do you.

So let's not take the option away from them before we find out.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
If you want to sink to that level, fine.

What does Mike's employer, Google, stand to gain from large blocks that only large companies can afford to process and validate? What does Google stand to gain from a system where every last transaction is recorded on a public blockchain, ripe for datamining? Mike after all works for a company that has a "real names" policy and actively tries to ensure users can-not use its services anonymously. Keep in mind Mike is also being paid by Google to work on Bitcoin; 20% time projects, while often speculative, are approved by management and must relate to Google's business interests in some fashion.

I'm sorry but the above seems incredibly thin as rationale that Mike is arguing in biased fashion motivated by Google's interest. That's just my opinion.

Leaving the block size limited to 1 MB will create centralization and lack of anonymity.

With a fixed block size, most people in the world won't be able to conduct transactions directly on the blockchain ...

Let me ask you something. Do you think most people in the world would want to? If so, why?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1009
Making the blocksize large as a solution will cripple Bitcoin with centralization and lack of anonymity.
Leaving the block size limited to 1 MB will create centralization and lack of anonymity.

With a fixed block size, most people in the world won't be able to conduct transactions directly on the blockchain - they will be forced to to route their transactions through the few privileged entities which can. There's your centralization and lack of anonymity.

Large blocks allow more transactions, which means more transaction fees, which means more revenue for mining as an industry, which means more players can afford to enter the market. That causes decentralization.

The most revolutionary thing about Bitcoin is that it is a truly decentralized store of value;
"Store of value" is an economic myth. Value is not a thing which can be stored.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1150
Peter, what is your opinion here:

Should complementary off-chain solutions develop organically on their own merits, taking loading off the Bitcoin blockchain, or should Bitcoin be crippled in the hope and expectation that complementary services develop around it faster?

Making the blocksize large as a solution will cripple Bitcoin with centralization and lack of anonymity.

The most revolutionary thing about Bitcoin is that it is a truly decentralized store of value; 1MB will be enough to act as a store of value for the forseeable future.


I'm not attacking anyone and I'm not anyone's opponent. I'm looking at all possible avenues - cap, no cap, dynamic cap, etc. - objectively. However, I think it's also helpful to put all information, including suspicions on opinions, out in the open. Please feel free to do the same for me, for example.

If you want to sink to that level, fine.

What does Mike's employer, Google, stand to gain from large blocks that only large companies can afford to process and validate? What does Google stand to gain from a system where every last transaction is recorded on a public blockchain, ripe for datamining? Mike after all works for a company that has a "real names" policy and actively tries to ensure users can-not use its services anonymously. Keep in mind Mike is also being paid by Google to work on Bitcoin; 20% time projects, while often speculative, are approved by management and must relate to Google's business interests in some fashion.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
You know, it says a lot when your opponents resort to attacking you rather than your ideas:

Honestly Peter, to be blunt I long ago concluded you're just working backwards from your preferred outcome. You don't want Bitcoin to scale up, and you will continue to invent ever more convoluted and baseless theories as to why it can't, until the end of time. Convincing you doesn't seem to be possible.

You know before I read this I had a question mark pop up when Peter brought up chaum signatures in one of these threads. I didn't see an immediate connection to a solution. Considering he wrote a detailed post on Chaum banks I wondered if personal preference was part of his outlook for the block size issue.

In the post I quoted Mike Hearn from he directly addressed your arguments. I have done so as well.

I'm not attacking anyone and I'm not anyone's opponent. I'm looking at all possible avenues - cap, no cap, dynamic cap, etc. - objectively. However, I think it's also helpful to put all information, including suspicions on opinions, out in the open. Please feel free to do the same for me, for example.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
100 satoshis -> ISO code
Peter, what is your opinion here:

Should complementary off-chain solutions develop organically on their own merits, taking loading off the Bitcoin blockchain, or should Bitcoin be crippled in the hope and expectation that complementary services develop around it faster?
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1150
You know, it says a lot when your opponents resort to attacking you rather than your ideas:

Honestly Peter, to be blunt I long ago concluded you're just working backwards from your preferred outcome. You don't want Bitcoin to scale up, and you will continue to invent ever more convoluted and baseless theories as to why it can't, until the end of time. Convincing you doesn't seem to be possible.

You know before I read this I had a question mark pop up when Peter brought up chaum signatures in one of these threads. I didn't see an immediate connection to a solution. Considering he wrote a detailed post on Chaum banks I wondered if personal preference was part of his outlook for the block size issue.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1002
Honestly Peter, to be blunt I long ago concluded you're just working backwards from your preferred outcome. You don't want Bitcoin to scale up, and you will continue to invent ever more convoluted and baseless theories as to why it can't, until the end of time. Convincing you doesn't seem to be possible.

You know before I read this I had a question mark pop up when Peter brought up chaum signatures in one of these threads. I didn't see an immediate connection to a solution. Considering he wrote a detailed post on Chaum banks I wondered if personal preference was part of his outlook for the block size issue.

No one person owns Bitcoin so people are free to push opinions for whatever reasons they wish, but I'm also free to suggest the community ignore development input from any such people  (I don't know what retep's motivations ultimately are).

Guys let me throw an idea out. What about a one time increase to something like 50MB? Let the market work out the rest (off-chain options, altl-coins, etc.). I don't think we'll find an optimum solution - Bitcoin's design may not include one - but we do need something a majority of people can live with, and I think we need a general consensus on it soon.

legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1150
Not much?

In the event that some jurisdictions with aggressive regulators try to impede mining, it will migrate elsewhere. Only if all mining is made illegal everywhere would it be a problem, and that's equivalent to a worldwide ban on Bitcoin, at which point it doesn't matter anymore.

So, in the countries where mining, and presumably Bitcoin in general, has been banned, do you think Bitcoins will have any value?


I was referring to the gathering of transactions stage, which is arguably the expensive part, bandwidth wise. If blocks are represented efficiently (eg, list of hashes or deltas against remote expected blocks) then almost all your bandwidth would go on receiving transaction broadcasts, and that doesn't require Tor.

...which means if I want to prevent mining behind Tor, all I have to do is fill my blocks with transactions that I haven't relayed to them. On the other hand, if it's a rule that you only mine to extend blocks if the transactions were broadcast first, anything that even makes transaction propagation slower, like a bunch of fake nodes, but far from 100%, causes orphan rates to jump. Not to mention I can make it very risky, due to orphaning, to mine blocks containing transactions that a large fraction of the nodes out there have decided to blacklist for whatever reason. You also create new forking risks if transaction propagation is ever prevented, when block propagation isn't.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
I'm missing the jump to bitcoin concerning itself about enabling anonymous mining from block size limits?

It's an implied jump  Wink

If mining requires a lot of resources (bandwidth and storage), it could be hard to maintain a decentralized network.
With only a handful of miners, it's easier for any would-be hero of this world to try to coerce them for 'the greater good'.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1129
Not true.  Sites already track the first node relaying a particular block.  Targeted observation (wiretap) makes the activity even more transparent, when you find a block.

I was referring to the gathering of transactions stage, which is arguably the expensive part, bandwidth wise. If blocks are represented efficiently (eg, list of hashes or deltas against remote expected blocks) then almost all your bandwidth would go on receiving transaction broadcasts, and that doesn't require Tor.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
I'm missing the jump to bitcoin concerning itself about enabling anonymous mining from block size limits?
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1091
Nobody knows you are mining, even without Tor, as your behaviour is indistinguishable from any other node.

Not true.  Sites already track the first node relaying a particular block.  Targeted observation (wiretap) makes the activity even more transparent, when you find a block.

legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1129
Not much?

In the event that some jurisdictions with aggressive regulators try to impede mining, it will migrate elsewhere. Only if all mining is made illegal everywhere would it be a problem, and that's equivalent to a worldwide ban on Bitcoin, at which point it doesn't matter anymore.
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