Topic: [Fundraising] Finish “Ultimate blockchain compression” (Read 25578 times)

UTXO commitments have always required a soft-fork, whether they are added to the coinbase or separate commitment transactions.

What open data fields in transactions? Do you mean OP_RETURN? If so, see my pull request for a soft-fork change to enable this kind of miner commitments with compact proofs:

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3977

I would not put proof of stake anywhere near a consensus system. Not with current designs at least.

So you went away from using available fields e.g. in coinbase and going for a forking solution?

What about the new open data fields for transactions? Any way to fit a UTXO hash in there and come to some kind of consensus e.g. via Proof of Stake?

Here is something I just posted on a related pull request last night:

Any update on this?

Oy, there is something wrong as I have not been receiving email updates about this thread. My apologies to everyone.

So an update on the current status:

A BIP describing the authenticated prefix tree resulting from my research has been published to the developer mailing list, and is available for view online. The feedback I got from that is being worked into a 2nd version of the proposal which is nearing completion (I'm currently adding descriptions of the peer-to-peer messages and JSON-RPC APIs, then it is finished).

I also have about 80% written of a BIP describing the validation index, the outline of one describing the wallet index, and an assortment of notes towards two future BIPs related to document timestamping and merged mining improvements. These are the first deliverables, as once developer consensus is achieved other people can start working on implementations of these various features.

Besides the python implementation hosted on Github, there's a C++ implementation suitable for inclusion in the reference client that is about half finished. It could use a lot more unit tests.

However since funding mostly dried up after Armory's very generous donation some months back, I have been working on this proposal only part time (1-2 days per week). The rest of my time is spent on various other funded projects including CoinJoin and preparation for blockchain pruning. Work has not stopped, just slowed down.

@dansmith, unfortunately I think there's some confusion. I did not switch addresses between the first and the second funding rounds, so most of the money received at that address was for the first round. (And, while it sounds like a lot, bitcoin was worth an order of magnitude less back then and it was mostly cashed out upon receipt. Too bad I don't have a knack for predicting markets :\ ) I was unable to finish out the round, so I've been forced to take on other (thankfully related) work as well which has unfortunately slowed things down.

maaku, was there a deliverable as per your promise?

Any news on this yet or you got enough BTC already?

So how far is this? Still under development?

Wow, that was very kind and unexpected. Thank you! I forwarded those coins into a cold-storage wallet that will be the start of her education endowment. Hopefully 20 years of deflation will turn it into a sizable chunk of her college education, and maybe even the start of a nest egg.

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Education endowment for maaku's daughter:
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Congrats!

Sent you a donation for his or her college fund.


I should write up a similar document explaining TXO commitments.

Congrats!

There was a gap in funding in late September, and then I went incommunicado for a few weeks, because of this:



Now that we're back home and settled, I'm back to working on authentication trees. Thanks in large part to the generous donation of Armory Technologies, Inc. and a few others, and the recent rise in price, I have the ability to focus on this project for some more months.

Right now I am translating the Python code into a C++ libauthtree implementation, and working on a series of BIPs that describe the trie structure, various generic operations on it, and the specific application to txid indices, address indices, and merged mining. Invictus Innovations is helping with the BIP process due to their interested in using the structure for merged mining headers.

I will be consolidating the recent news into a blog post update soon, hopefully by the end of the week.

Interested in the status of this as well.

What's the latest on the development of this?

Where do you think the first SHA256() gets the data it's working on? What about the second?

I have read that, and I don't agree. I'm far more inclined to side with Gavin on the issue of block size. Bitcoin will either scale up or become irrelevant. These are the only two viable outcomes I see.

However this is now offtopic, so I'd rather keep discussions of your "keep bitcoin free" campaign outside of this thread.


You are arguing strawmen: You assume that nodes will validate blocks probabilistically, and then show how this will result in possible fraud. The problem lies in the security model you are proposing, namely reliance on fraud proofs instead of full validation.


Yes.


So now you're assuming that an attacker will be able to successfully mine 10,000 blocks in order setup a one-off 20-minute DoS? I'm pretty sure it'd be cheaper to just buy the 14,675BTC. If someone who wants to destroy or defraud the bitcoin network is able to mine that many blocks in preparation, it's either a *really* long con or Bitcoin is hosed for so many other reasons.

I'm not arguing that it is impossible. I'm arguing that it is not even remotely close to economically plausible, and so far beyond other attack vectors that it's not worth worrying about.

But even if that weren't the case, there are fundamentally simple ways to deal with the issue: introduce a hard limit on the number of index node updates per-block, just as the number of signature operations is currently limited.


That's a wonderfully general argument you can use against anything you don't like. Implementation bugs can exist anywhere. There's no reason to suppose that we're more or less likely to run into them here than somewhere else.


Enlighten me, please.

EDIT: After thinking about this for some time, the only conclusion I can come to is that you are assuming multiple blocks on the first pass. This is only true of about half of the nodes (most of which are two blocks), the other half are small enough to fit in a single block. While not a performance factor of 2, it's definitely >= 1.5.


That's not a very useful definition of consensus. Reorgs happen even without malicious intent, and the network is eventually able to reach agreement about older blocks. A real error is when one node rejects a block that other validating nodes accept - no amount of time or work built on the other chain will convince that node to switch. If this proposal is susceptible to that kind of validation error, I'd be interested to know.


If you know a way to do the same with this proposal, which isn't easily solved by processing blocks in parallel, and which doesn't require an additional network DoS vulnerability, please let me know. Until then there are simply too many "what if"s attached.

Read this before making assumptions: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/how-a-floating-blocksize-limit-inevitably-leads-towards-centralization-144895

Under the right circumstances those perverse incentives do exist.


Shit... your comment just made me realize that with the variant of the perverse block propagation incentives where you simply want to keep other miners from being able to collect transaction fees profitably it's actually in your incentive to propagate whatever information is required to quickly update the UTXO set for the coinbase transaction that becomes spendable in the next block. Other miners will be able to build upon your block - making it less likely to be orphaned - but they won't have the information required to safely add transactions too it until they finish processing the rest of the UTXO updates some time later. Write the code to do this and miners will start using this to keep their profitability up regardless of the consequences down the road.


Have some imagination: if the attack can cause technical problems with Bitcoin for whatever reason, there will be people and organizations with strong incentives to carry it out. For instance note how you could create a block that's fraudulent, but in a way where proving that it's fraudulent requires a proof that most implementations can't process because of the ridiculously large UTXO path length involved - an excellent way to screw up inflation fraud proofs and get some fake coins created.

Out of curiosity, have you ever worked on any safety critical systems and/or real-time systems? Or even just software where the consequences of it failing had a high financial cost? (prior to your work on Bitcoin that is...)


Creating those outputs requires 0 BTC, not 14,675BTC - zero-satoshi outputs are legal. With one satoshi outputs it requires 27BTC. That you used the dust value suggests you don't understand the attack.

As I say, such extreme differences make it very likely that you'll run into implementations - or just different versions - that can't handle such blocks, while others can, leading to dangerous forks. Look at how the March fork happened because of a previously unknown limit on how many database operations could happen in one go in BDB.


The performance cost of SHA256^2 compared to SHA256 is a lot less than 2. Heck, I'd bet you 1BTC that even in your existing Python implementation changing from SHA256 to SHA256^2 makes less than a 10% performance difference, and the difference in an optimized C++ version is likely unmeasurable. I really hope you understand why...


A re-org is a failure of consensus, though one that healed itself. Currently re-orgs don't happen too often because the difference in performance between the worst, average, and best performing Bitcoin nodes is small, but if that's not true serious problems develop. As an example when I was testing out the Bloom filter IO attack vulnerability fixed in 0.8.4 I found I was able to get nodes I attacked to fall behind the rest of the network by more than six blocks; an attacker could use such an attack against miners to construct a long-fork to perform double-spend attacks.


FWIW thinking about it further, I realized that your assertion that the UTXO tree can be updated in parallel is incorrect because parallel updates don't allow for succinct fraud proofs of what modifications a given transaction made to the UTXO set; blocks will need to commit to what the top-level UTXO state hash was for every individual transaction processed because without such fine-grained commitments you can't prove that a given UTXO should not have been added to the set without providing all the transactions in the block.

I was looser with terminology than I should have been. I meant legitimate bitcoin traffic, not mastercoin-like data and dust bloat. Bitcoin revolutionized payments. Colored coins applies all that same innovation to every other kind of financial contract or property ownership. Of course switching from 1 specific application to infinity general applications will result in more traffic ... lots more traffic would be a bit of an understatement. Just the distributed exchange traffic alone would probably consume more blockchain space than payments, and that's just one application.

When colored coin technology becomes widespread, bitcoin will have to scale. Right now that would push out mobile or embedded devices that already can't keep up with the block chain in a secure manor. This proposal of authenticated indices would make miners and other full nodes do a little extra upfront work for the benefit of lightweight clients that desire to securely work with only the parts of the block chain that concern them.

BTW, we have since published our "user-issued assets" colored coin proposal, under the name Freimarkets:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/crowdfund-user-issued-assets-p2p-exchange-off-chain-transactions-and-more-278671

Still, you're playing a game that is not in your favor. In this case you are trading a few extra seconds of alone time hashing the next block against the likelihood that someone else will find a competing (and faster validating) block in the mean time. Unless you are approaching 50% hash power, it's not worth it. The faster your blocks get validated, the better off you are.


As you say, they would have to make at the very least one set of adjustments for the coinbase which becomes newly active, requiring access to part of the datastructure. This could be facilitated by miners including a proof with the block header that provides just the paths necessary for making the coinbase update. Miners know that any full node will reject a header with improperly constructed commitment hashes, so I fail to see what the issue is.


The full scriptPubKey needs to be stored, or else two lookups would be required - one from the wallet index to check existence, and one from the validation index to actually get the scriptPubKey. That is wasteful. The alternative is key by hash(scriptPubKey) and put scriptPubKey in resulting value: that nearly doubles the size of the index on disk. You'd have to have a really strong reason for doing so, which I don't think the one given is.

BTW, the structure is actually keyed by compress(scriptPubKey), using the same compression mechanism as ultraprune. A standard transaction (pubkey, pubkeyhash, or p2sh) compresses to the minimal number of bytes of either pubkey or hash data. "Attacking" pathways to pubkeyhash or p2sh keys requires multiple hash preimages. I put it in quotes because honestly, what exactly is the purpose of the attack?


"Tricky and expensive" to create such a block? You'd have to create ~270,270,000 outputs, the majority of which are probably non-spendable, requiring *at minimum* 14675.661btc. For an "attack" which at worst requires more than the entire existing block chain history to construct, and adds only 22 minutes to people's resync times. I fail to see why this should be anything but an academic concern.


A performance factor of 2 is worth a little upfront analysis work. Padding prevents you from being able to construct length-extension attacks - append padding bytes and you no longer have a valid node structure. Length-extension is not an issue, but performance considerations are.


I think you mean it could lead to a reorg. "Failure to update sufficiently fast" does not in itself lead to consensus errors. Examples please?

I was under the impression coloured coins don't cause blockchain bloat, unlike Mastercoin, and that is one of its main benefits.  Am I wrong?