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Topic: Future ICO Woes & Alternatives to ICOs for Fundraising (Read 1886 times)

jr. member
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And the ICO cease & desist orders begin:

https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/12/sec-shuts-down-munchee-ico/

And the European regulator is coming:

http://archive.is/heVFi

G20 coordinated regulation coming:

The international mood toward Bitcoin has continued to tighten, particularly with US Treasury secretary Steven Mnuchin stating that the G20 nations will begin working together to make sure that Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are properly regulated.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
I see Dan is making a legal argument for the EOS token sale not being a security, so he is essentially arguing that because they did not use the pooled funds for developing the software (which he claims are revenue for a software sale, not an investment in the future value of tokens). The Howey test will look beyond such obfuscations of the economic reality. The economic reality is the investors are depending on Blockone to provide the profit expectation for the tokens. I suppose analogous to the arguments for the SAFT, they’re thinking that the pre-functional tokens are securities (although they claim they’re not and are revenue) and the functional tokens at the time when Blockone is not running the nodes are not securities because Blockone as the common enterprise will have ceased doing the significant efforts. Even if courts and regulators agree with that logic, the pre-functional tokens are clearly securities (as are the shares of a SAFT) and they have clearly been promoted to and sold to USA investors. Also the USA is not the only country with securities laws. And the funds invested were pooled with Blockone regardless whether they used the funds or used prior funds. One of the arguments for the SAFT is that because the pre-functional shares are treated as securities, then the public-at-large (i.e. the non-accredited investors) are protected from the sort of fraud and insufficient disclosure that securities law is designed to protect. So Blockone did not adhere to the protections that would make the SAFT concept worthy to society and regulators, and instead sold the pre-functional token (as an investment contract!) willy-nilly. Dan was asked why they made the pre-functional token tradeable which adds evidence that investors buy it to distribute it as underwriters, and Dan basically gave a nonsense response. This sort of hair-brained stuff from Dan is what boggles my mind. I presume he is thinking that if they have enough money they can afford attorneys and buy off regulators or perhaps even lead an overthrow of the powers that be? In that case, even a $billion is not enough.

Dan’s response to the question about what assurances do buyers of the token have is very incriminating in my opinion. Basically he is admitting they have to obfuscate the economic reality to attempt to evade securities law. In the prior response he stated that they needed to create a distribution, so this implies there is an expectation that some group will launch the live network honoring that distribution, and then they mention they will use the $300 million to develop ecosystem infrastructure and apps, yet then they somehow disclaim that that will be connected with this spontaneous formation of a live network that honors the distribution of the formerly “useless token”. Dan tries to imply that the distribution is distinct from the Blockone common enterprise (which issued the distribution in a token sale) and that the common enterprise is just selling open source software token which anyone might or might launch into a live network, and thus implying Blockone would not be the issuer of the eventual live network tokens and also claiming they are not issuing a security for the pre-functional ERC-20 token. This is clearly a premeditated obfuscation of the economic reality. Buyers of the EOS ERC-20 tokens are clearly expecting the live network to honor their share and they are clearly basing their profit expectation on the efforts of Blockone to develop the software that will form the live network. The current speculative trading on EOS ERC-20 tokens on exchanges is clearly based around those expectations of the ongoing efforts Blockone must complete. What are their lawyers smoking? I want some of that shit.

My understanding is that the securities law attorneys who advise for example Blockone, are paid to provide a legal OPINION. This means their culpability is limited as long as they provided a reasonable justification for their opinion. Yet the culpability for breaking the law will rest on the principals of Blockone, not on the attorney. The attorneys could be fined or in the worst case dis-barred, but the criminal and culpability for returning the $300 million rests on the principals of Blockone and possibility any affiliates and underwriters complicit in the scheme which might include some of you shills in this thread.

Disclaimer: IANAL. This is not legal nor investing advice.



Anyone care to address these issues here on Bitcoin Forum?

No product, no promises.

So only faith and a high market cap based on air (for now). And Dan Larimer who has launched two successful projects earlier (Steemit.com and Bitshares.com). People have faith in Dan. And the features of EOS.io may give ETH a run for its money.

The question is: do you have faith?

So expectations-of-profit for making an investment in “useless tokens” have been based on faith in Dan Larimer’s ongoing efforts. Sounds like an investment security under the Howey test.

And probable recycling fraud ongoing (also here and here) has been presented that perhaps the “useless” EOS token sale is being gamed in various ways., which the SEC has already indicated would be a priority for future enforcement action.


EOS is an unregistered security that was sold to some USA and EU investors illegally and it will eventually be delisted like all the other ICOs including Ethereum.

Investors are risking legal and criminal culpability for illegal selling on unregistered exchanges.

backseat lawyer by the way

Correct Steemit had Gary Ross a former US Treasury official advising them.

Testnet today, and Mike Novogratz mentioned EOS on CNBC, which means he probably has a position in EOS.  EOS ICO distribution is also more than half over.

Hmm. Another $billionaire involved as a promoter thus potentially culpable to SEC enforcement. Makes one wonder if the regulators are complicit (i.e. have been bought off)?



Create instead decentralized paradigms that avoid legal entanglement:

It is a myth that decentralized 'paradigms' make it possible to avoid legal entanglement.

Well they seem to render the vocal cords of SEC officials unable to speak.



I don't think it's a scam. These are all things that were stated or implied before the ICO.

It’s not strictly necessary for it to be fraudulent for it to be illegal under securities law.

But I bet the SEC can find some fraud and misrepresentation of material facts any way. They’re quite expert at digging out that stuff and even offer huge $millions bounties to those who will provide inside information to them.

Also given that they’re attempting to claim the token sale is not a security issuance, then they will also be subject to consumer protection laws as well. Those complicit in selling MLM bags to greater fools could I guess also possibly be culpable.

I mean basically get involved with something shady and do not be surprised when you end up in some troublesome shit.

And I hope nobody is spending their profits from all these token sales as clawbacks are potentially a threat. And then if you can’t pay back, you’re in deep shit.

So if you’re living in some banana or former-USSR republic, then completely disregard my statements and carry on suckering those in the first world nations into these hot potatoes.

You have got to be kidding me. EOS is not even close to being a security. It promises nothing in return and is an open source software that will be released. You sure wasted a lot of words and don't even understand what EOS is.

The securities law is based on the profit expectations of investors, not what EOS writes in their legal documents which do not reflect the economic reality of the situation.

Do you see Blockone actively ensuring that the EOS tokens will not have any value? Did they sue the exchanges to prevent the tokens from being listed?

Open source does not help them avert the securities regulations, because for one thing they pooled the funds raised and are expected by investors to use those funds to develop the open source.

The investors expectations are proven by the comments in this thread. All the SEC has to do is capture this thread. Note I have archived this thread at archive.is to help the regulators.

As far as US buyers using VPN to get around getting EOS tokens, 99% of other ICO's have allowed the same loophole. They gave the same warnings with even stronger language discouraging US buyers

Nevertheless, the US buyers side-stepped the controls and thus EOS (i.e. blockone) has likely violated the law.

Disclaimer: IANAL. This is not legal advice.

It will be epic if all those funds get frozen and clawed back. Let’s see which “partners in the silicon valley” take the risk of receiving black money and risk a 20 year felony prison sentence per the money laundering laws in the USA for accepting funding that was obtained via illegal activity.

Any other ICO format for a PoS coin would be literally idiocy.

You could have at least done the SAFT and limited it to accredited investors. Then at least you’d have some heavyweight legal research behind you.

But then of course you might not have received $300 million because you would need to know the identity of each person, do a background check, etc..

[…]

I read that EOS plans to show some auditing ostensibly to claim “proof” they were not buying token sales from themselves. But that can be subverted given that tokens were sold apparently without requiring identity checks. Thus it is easy to operate with ETH loans or other ETH the insiders have access to through sock puppets.

I wonder when more people will realize that EOS is a scam.

I couldn't find anything that suggests that EOS is a scam.

1. Claiming they are not subject to US securities laws because they claim they did not sell to US persons, yet it is documented that US persons did purchase the token sale. They refused to do KYC to prevent US persons from participating. Ditto for Chinese, Koreans, UK, Canadians, and other countries which have strict securities laws and are cracking down. So they incorporate in the Caymans and presumably expect to hide behind layers of lawyers. Let’s see how that works out for them and those accomplices affiliates like @chryspano.

2. Running the ICO for a year so they can pump hype about being ahead of schedule, cause the price to jump way up so they can sell, then let the price crash back down so they buy their own ICO. Recycling their money over and over again to extract maximum rents from the ecosystem while ending up with most of the ICO tokens for themselves via numerous sockpuppets same as they did for Steem. Running their tokens through Bitfinex in Hong Kong with that Tether et al scam that Brock Pierce is involved with so presumably they can obscure the disposals of the funds to fiat so as to obscure how their extensive organized crime syndicate is buying their own ICO. Look into the conglomerate structure of the parent companies of Bitfinex and climb down that rabbit hole. Even Dan announced in a blog that they would do this admitting in writing that he is scamming.

3. Documented upthread that the ICO is designed to be algorithmically gamed (details linked upthread) so that this is unfair. Dan was warned about this before launch and chose to ignore it.

4. Terms of the token sale claim that the tokens are not be part of any future software distribution, and that there is no common enterprise because the funds raised are not being used to create such a software distribution, yet in videos  and promotions they claim exactly the opposite that they are using the funds to develop what will be the software distribution. Clearly all the speculators here expect the tokens to be the tokens of the software distribution.

5. Lying about their technology. Ridiculing other experts (including PhDs of computer science from Tendermint, Vitalik, and myself) who write correctly about their technology.

6. Failing to admit that DPoS only functions properly if the stake (tokens) are controlled by an oligarchy of whales.

7. Lying about the past performance of the technology, even having their shills here declare me a liar when I point about that the Steem system has been DDoS attacked numerous times because the zero transaction fee nonsense does not fund the perimeter nodes of the system.

Actually I had always thought that Dan was genuine but just a bit weird/myopic in terms of his design choices and political-economic philosophy. But the premeditated sneakyfastmine of Steem (wherein he wrote a blog in advance announcing they would do that) to grab 50+% of the money supply for an oligarchy of whales caused me to start to doubt whether he was innocuous. But then I realized he did not have much choice because DPoS does not function properly with chaos in voting (he was frustrated the Bitshares governance was not working correctly to approve funding for some of the things he wanted to be worked on) and must be controlled by a like-minded group of whales. And Steem was somewhat interesting because it was the first experiment for onboarding the masses. And the first with a front-end interface and use case outside of just a wallet. So I rolled with it and used the lessons learned (such as my blog mathematically figuring out that voting from minted tokens of the collective can never be fair and must aggregate to the whales) there to guide my project plans. But the $2 billion “useless token” sale and all this distortion of the material facts while ridiculing others in the industry is way over the top and has lowered my respect for Dan even further into the gutter.

it seems the price will not rise high until the ico end

Ah I would not count on that. When BTC peaks, then there might be a lot of FOMO money spilling out into alts. And looking at major alts, there are not that many solid choices. So many speculators are perhaps going to look at ETH at $28 billion marketcap and EOS at $0.5B mcap, and somehow equate the two since EOS will have a first-mover advantage higher transaction volume capability (even though it is just vaporware and a lot of work to get to point that ERC-20 tokens are being issued on EOS someday).

Betting against FOMO-fever is not wise. It will all probably come crashing down someday, but probably not in 2017. I think the prior decline in price before the recent hype about accelerated progress, was probably the down move for 2017. Alts are about to catch a bid after mid-November.

EOS November 6 Technical Analysis and Price Cast, Elliot Wave and Trend Line

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wTvuwrsMH8


Btw, that looks to be a good analysis. Looks very bullish short-term.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
I do see the market push towards projects like polymath. They are a platform for issuing compliant security tokens on the blockchain. IMO I see the crypto world heading towards securities and that's why I'm planning on going in on polymath. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-30/it-s-about-to-become-even-easier-to-issue-blockchain-based-coins

Do note that Polymath will not help for legally issuing ERC-20 app tokens. Polymath is for tokenizing what would have been issued as a security anyway.

The key distinction being that it won’t help you side-step onerous regulations that make most app tokens impossible to issue legally.
member
Activity: 125
Merit: 10
I do see the market push towards projects like polymath. They are a platform for issuing compliant security tokens on the blockchain. IMO I see the crypto world heading towards securities and that's why I'm planning on going in on polymath. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-30/it-s-about-to-become-even-easier-to-issue-blockchain-based-coins
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Also the one item they clarified doesn’t mean what most people think it means:

They did, however, answer one big question many had wondered -- whether tokens could automatically be deemed securities simply by virtue of whether or not they were listed on an exchange. The answer: no.

All they’re saying is that if a token isn’t a security when analysed by the Howey test, then it trading on an exchange doesn’t convert it into a security. But that doesn’t mean you can sell a token wherein the buyers have a profit expectation (or significant risk of capital loss per some State “risk test” laws such as California) and expect it isn’t security. For example, a SAFT issued token that launches the token dominated by free market effects (not developer/issuer effects) as explained by Hyperme.sh, would not be a security and thus its trading on an exchange would not make it a security.

Howey doesn’t apply to pre-orders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-order#In_video_gaming

Because the video game industry pre-orders are not regulated as securities.

The quote reinforces my point: "They did, however, answer one big question many had wondered -- whether tokens could automatically be deemed securities simply by virtue of whether or not they were listed on an exchange. The answer: no."

It matters if the purchases are primarily for investment or use. The SEC will interview various purchasers to collect evidence.

Collectibles such as baseball cards have been around for ages and are not regulated as securities.

Pay attention to what I wrote above about “unless the free market factors dominate the investor’s expectation of profit”.

As the banned @TPTB_need_war pointed out and the banned @Hyperme.sh pointed out about baseball cards, the issuer is not the dominant factor the investors are reliant on. Rather they are reliant on the baseball player’s future popularity, performance, etc..

An issuer of collectibles on a blockchain would be much better off to release an algorithm on a existing blockchain such as Crypto Kitties did, because if the appreciation of those cards is primary dependent on the issuer’s ongoing efforts then it will be a security under the Howey test.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Earlier in November I wrote about that the SEC Chairman Jay Clayton warned that he had not seen one ICO which he didn’t think had all the hallmarks of being a security. And I quoted others on the future of unregulated ICOs being bleak. I had also mentioned an upcoming Berkeley conference where SEC officials would participate in a discussion with some members of the crypto community.

Here is the update on the said conference.

The key point was the SEC reaffirmed what I had quoted previously from others (see above) that the SEC intends to regulate all ICOs within existing regulatory laws and not provide any grandfathering or new paradigms:

Jeremy Gardner, founder and managing partner of Ausum Ventures, pushed back, asserting the amount of risk the VCs take on is appropriate for them, but not for everyday investors. "Consumers shouldn’t be investing in white papers," he said, referring to the risk involved in investing in extremely early-stage ideas. He also noted that cautious practices like treating sales of future, pre-network tokens as securities via agreements called SAFTs (simple agreement for future tokens) "keeps consumers from being bamboozled." (When asked directly about SAFTs, Fallon referred the audience to the SEC's report on a sister agreement called a SAFE.)

SAFEs were designed for a specific type of startup.

SAFEs were developed in Silicon Valley as a way for venture capital investors to quickly invest in a hot startup without burdening the startup with the more labored negotiations an equity offering may entail.  Oftentimes, for the venture capital investor, it was more important to get the investment opportunity, and possible future opportunities, with the startup than it was to protect the relatively small investment represented by the SAFE.  In addition, the various mechanisms of the SAFE, from the triggering events to the conversion terms, were designed to best operate in the context of a fast growing startup likely to need and attract additional capital from sophisticated venture capital investors.  This may or may not be the case with the crowdfunding investment opportunity you are exploring.

member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
'Wolf of Wall Street' warns raising money through ICOs is the 'biggest scam ever'

  • Initial Coin Offerings (ICOs) have become a primary means of fundraising for projects built on blockchain technology.
  • "It is the biggest scam ever, such a huge gigantic scam that's going to blow up in so many people's faces. It's far worse than anything I was ever doing," Jordan Belfort told the Financial Times in an interview published Sunday.
  • So far this year, ICOs have raised more than $3 billion, according to Coinschedule.com.
member
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https://www.coindesk.com/obvious-bubble-sec-committee-lashes-bitcoin-icos/

as exchanges tighten their KYC requirements and ban users from countries the U.S. govt doesn't approve (recent Bittrex account lock-ups for example, see the last 5 pages of https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=463202.940)



I see Dan is making a legal argument for the EOS token sale not being a security, so he is essentially arguing that because they did not use the pooled funds for developing the software (which he claims are revenue for a software sale, not an investment in the future value of tokens). The Howey test will look beyond such obfuscations of the economic reality. The economic reality is the investors are depending on Blockone to provide the profit expectation for the tokens. I suppose analogous to the arguments for the SAFT, they’re thinking that the pre-functional tokens are securities (although they claim they’re not and are revenue) and the functional tokens at the time when Blockone is not running the nodes are not securities because Blockone as the common enterprise will have ceased doing the significant efforts. Even if courts and regulators agree with that logic, the pre-functional tokens are clearly securities (as are the shares of a SAFT) and they have clearly been promoted to and sold to USA investors. Also the USA is not the only country with securities laws. And the funds invested were pooled with Blockone regardless whether they used the funds or used prior funds. One of the arguments for the SAFT is that because the pre-functional shares are treated as securities, then the public-at-large (i.e. the non-accredited investors) are protected from the sort of fraud and insufficient disclosure that securities law is designed to protect. So Blockone did not adhere to the protections that would make the SAFT concept worthy to society and regulators, and instead sold the pre-functional token (as an investment contract!) willy-nilly. Dan was asked why they made the pre-functional token tradeable which adds evidence that investors buy it to distribute it as underwriters, and Dan basically gave a nonsense response. This sort of hair-brained stuff from Dan is what boggles my mind. I presume he is thinking that if they have enough money they can afford attorneys and buy off regulators or perhaps even lead an overthrow of the powers that be? In that case, even a $billion is not enough.

Dan’s response to the question about what assurances do buyers of the token have is very incriminating in my opinion. Basically he is admitting they have to obfuscate the economic reality to attempt to evade securities law. In the prior response he stated that they needed to create a distribution, so this implies there is an expectation that some group will launch the live network honoring that distribution, and then they mention they will use the $300 million to develop ecosystem infrastructure and apps, yet then they somehow disclaim that that will be connected with this spontaneous formation of a live network that honors the distribution of the formerly “useless token”. Dan tries to imply that the distribution is distinct from the Blockone common enterprise (which issued the distribution in a token sale) and that the common enterprise is just selling open source software token which anyone might or might launch into a live network, and thus implying Blockone would not be the issuer of the eventual live network tokens and also claiming they are not issuing a security for the pre-functional ERC-20 token. This is clearly a premeditated obfuscation of the economic reality. Buyers of the EOS ERC-20 tokens are clearly expecting the live network to honor their share and they are clearly basing their profit expectation on the efforts of Blockone to develop the software that will form the live network. The current speculative trading on EOS ERC-20 tokens on exchanges is clearly based around those expectations of the ongoing efforts Blockone must complete. What are their lawyers smoking? I want some of that shit.

My understanding is that the securities law attorneys who advise for example Blockone, are paid to provide a legal OPINION. This means their culpability is limited as long as they provided a reasonable justification for their opinion. Yet the culpability for breaking the law will rest on the principals of Blockone, not on the attorney. The attorneys could be fined or in the worst case dis-barred, but the criminal and culpability for returning the $300 million rests on the principals of Blockone and possibility any affiliates and underwriters complicit in the scheme which might include some of you shills in this thread.

Disclaimer: IANAL. This is not legal nor investing advice.
member
Activity: 98
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The issue of airdrops revisited based on the arguments in the previously discussed newly issued SAFT white paper.
member
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Thus the SAFTs that were sold in the Filecoin ICO encumber the Filecoin tokes as securities. Thus the Filecoin tokens are useless and can’t be actually used decentralized (unless hypothetically the common enterprise ceases as explained below).

[…]

Here are the narly details from an attorney:

The question here is whether a token issued pursuant to the terms of a security/investment contract (i.e. the SAFT) is itself also an investment contract. (Which, to this week’s SAFT offering’s credit, is briefly acknowledged in the PPM).

[…]

There is no way to convert a security into a non-security (except as aforementioned the common enterprise ceases), because that would circumvent the entire point of the law. The investors are not investing in SAFTs but in the Filecoin tokens they receive for the SAFTs. Without the Filecoin tokens, the SAFTs are worthless. The Howey Test states it will always look at the economic reality and ignore any tricks that attempt to obfuscate the economic reality.

It is difficult to divorce the money and exchange component from “utility tokens,” as app-coins are sometimes called, particularly in the context of a speculative ICO where the token allocation is pre-sold to persons who could not possibly consume them all and are purchasing the coins with the expectation of profit on re-sale.



For this reason, my personal view is that most ICOs – even the “utility coins” – are unlikely to escape regulation by jurisdiction-appropriate rules regarding public offerings, financial promotions and unfair trade practices. I have held this view since 2014 but then again I’m pretty conservative.

[…]

[…] the blockchain industry’s thinking has over-emphasized complying with regulations that govern the initial issuance of tokens, and has neglected to address the impact of all of the regulations that apply on a continuing basis.


I’m reviewing the arguments for the SAFT which I had previously discussed in the context of Filecoin, as excerpted above.

The above quoted argument against fully-functional tokens because of a dominating profit expectation, is rebuked in the following SAFT white paper. I was pleasantly surprised to read their logic about free market preponderance, but the problem is the court is going to interpret this, unless the developer has entirely ceased activity before the tokens are issued.

Here are some excerpts from the white paper which I find particularly noteworthy:

Commodities don't have to be physical. A commodity is defined to be a fungible good whose supply is not controlled by any one entity:

"A reasonably interchangeable good or material, bought and sold freely as an article of commerce."

"A commodity is a basic good used in commerce that is interchangeable with other commodities of the same type"

"a good or service whose wide availability typically leads to smaller profit margins and diminishes the importance of factors (as brand name) other than price"

[…]

Duh, Bitcoins are fungible, so they can qualify as a commodity. Non-fungible digital content such as MP3s can not be a commodity.

Proving ownership over a quantity of Bitcoins does require possession of a specific pattern of bits. Which is analogous to proving ownership over gold is having possession of a quantity of gold.

[…]

While it is true that shares of bearer stock equity certificates of an individual issuer company are fungible (i.e. there is no name associated with the certificates so they can be freely bought and sold), they are not divisible, not tradeable in an unregulated exchange markets, and are not a fungible money because the value of the stock fluctuates w.r.t. to the performance of the company, i.e. a form of 3rd party liability. Whereas, Bitcoin like gold has no 3rd party dependence, nearly infinite divisibility, trades on unregulated exchange markets.


Since tangibleness and perishableness are not properties that are shared by all commodities, then they are not attributes of commodities. To reiterate, commodities are fungible goods in which no one entity has control over the supply. They key attributes that distinguish commodities from other goods is that they are fungible and that their supply is not a 3rd party dependency, i.e. we don't depend on any one company to get pork bellies, but we do depend on Microsoft for supply of the Windoze operating system. And for money it is most ideal if the supply is inelastic, which is another minor reason Bitcoin is better than gold for money.

Another difference is that the capital appreciation of company shares are usually tied to a dividend expectation (as evident by the popular P/E metric), which obviously relies on the performance of the company to deliver. Whereas, if token pays no dividend, the capital appreciation is not likely coming mostly from the performance the developer if we’re only talking about maintenance upgrades. However, for significant protocol upgrades such as for example recent hype about various Ethereum developments, it’s not entirely clear that the expectation of profits is independent of Vitalik et al. Although one could possibly argue that the capital appreciation of Ethereum has been more do to the efforts of various free market ERC-20 ventures.

The SAFT wants to eliminate the utility token argument. Many tokens are NOT securitites and are more like metrocards and software licenses, however the SAFT doesn't care and essentially creates a securities where there is not. As Cooley admits, the token is often not the security while the SAFT always is. So then why add such a regulatory burden and why limit the amount you can raise and who you can offer to (only Accredited Investors (i.e. high net worth)? (rhetorical question)

Furthermore, what protections do the SAFT provide once the tokens are delivered? Are the tokens now treated as restricted securities, meaning that you must hold your tokens for a year or more before selling them? That seems like a major drawback for anyone buying tokens for short to medium term investing.

The quoted portion is ignorant and incorrect bullshit.

The SAFT white paper clearly explains that the SAFT is a way of avoiding issuing a pre-functional token, which is likely to be classified as a security. The functional token that is ultimately issued must be a non-security.

The SAFT shares are the security, not the token.
member
Activity: 98
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All true but I just think regulations arent there to protect anyone any more than patriot acts are to protect anyone. So even after you have jumped through all their hoops they will if they want to make up a reason to stop what you are trying to do. Satoshi was right to disappear otherwise im.sure he would already be dead if they could of stopped him before he launched btc. Maybe in big turning ppints in history you just cant work within the system illegal is only what the last guys decide is illegal.

Agreed. That is why it is important to issue the token such that it is not encumbered by any laws. This is the advantage that proof-of-work issued tokens as I explained, is they have no centralized issuer thus can’t be securities unless there is some sneakyinstamine.

I’m working on an objective issuance that achieves the same legal implications as proof-of-work, but distributes the tokens to non-nerds and doesn’t expend value on electricity. So that we get the legal advantages of proof-of-work, yet with the distribution advantages of onboarding the masses. Steem was the first to do this by employing “decentralized” voting to award the issuance to users, but as I explained the flaw is that algorithmically (mathematically) it is impossible to design voting that spends from the collective, which can’t be controlled by the whales, thus Steem’s distribution is non-objective and thus can be argued to be common enterprise of the whales who participated in the sneakfastmine. This is why I have for example urged others to divest of Steem. Certainly I like the goals and experiment Steem was attempting to achieve.
sr. member
Activity: 672
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Why not go the whole fuck the system fully anonymous decentralised route? I mean the legal frameworks are there to take freedom away and over regulation of the FED from the crash that they ultimately caused, why play their game.

I’m somewhat expert on anonymity, and not only do I doubt the issuers can maintain their anonymity (besides if it were my project, I could not easily hide that I am working on it as a developer and still develop it collaboratively in open source with all comers), but the money all becomes black.

What the hell will you be able to do with black tokens when cash is soon outlawed? You won’t be able to use any your gains to buy real world assets and the masses will run away from your token like the plague.

I don’t think people understand what is coming in terms of clawbacks from unregistered financial activities.

We are headed into very difficult times and so we need a token system that isn’t illegal.


All true but I just think regulations arent there to protect anyone any more than patriot acts are to protect anyone. So even after you have jumped through all their hoops they will if they want to make up a reason to stop what you are trying to do. Satoshi was right to disappear otherwise im.sure he would already be dead if they could of stopped him before he launched btc. Maybe in big turning ppints in history you just cant work within the system illegal is only what the last guys decide is illegal.
member
Activity: 98
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Why not go the whole fuck the system fully anonymous decentralised route? I mean the legal frameworks are there to take freedom away and over regulation of the FED from the crash that they ultimately caused, why play their game.

I’m somewhat expert on anonymity, and not only do I doubt the issuers can maintain their anonymity (besides if it were my project, I could not easily hide that I am working on it as a developer and still develop it collaboratively in open source with all comers), but the money all becomes black.

What the hell will you be able to do with black tokens when cash is soon outlawed? You won’t be able to use any your gains to buy real world assets and the masses will run away from your token like the plague.

I don’t think people understand what is coming in terms of clawbacks from unregistered financial activities.

We are headed into very difficult times and so we need a token system that isn’t illegal.
sr. member
Activity: 672
Merit: 251
Why not go the whole fuck the system fully anonymous decentralised route? I mean the legal frameworks are there to take freedom away and over regulation of the FED from the crash that they ultimately caused, why play their game.

Decentralise the app and sell the token on a dectralised platform. To me that's more attractive anyway.


Tip us off if you do though.  Cheesy
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
Proof-of-work Case

Let’s think about what makes proof-of-work distribution not a security:

1. it’s issued by competitive decentralized algorithm which is resistant to non-objectivity in terms of value awarded to whom, so no one entity or colluding group is an issuer (thus no common enterprise)

2. the funds expended for mining are not pooled by a common enterprise (i.e. no horizontal commonality)[1]

So actually if a group colludes to sneakyinstamine, then the reasons above can both be subverted. The reason #2 is subverted because the future appreciated value of the tokens is pooled.

So this is why a reasonably diverse fair launch is critical for proving that the issuance is sufficient diversified.

Note however that in the case of even for example Bitcoin and Monero, the circle of initial miners when the issuance rate was greatest was much smaller than the eventual diversification. The key is that the mining continued for a long duration to enable the distribution to become sufficiently diversified. But the possibility of more exclusive distribution in the early phases wasn’t entirely (provably) eliminated.

So it seems that an initial mining period that is somewhat more exclusive (due to lack of awareness of the market) is not antithetical to avoiding a common enterprise and securization of the tokens. Whereas, the securization issue is more dubious if the initial more exclusive phase of mining is perpetuated with a subterfuge scheme that continues to funnel much of the ongoing issuance to the same exclusive group in an uncompetitive manner that can’t reasonably be competed with mathematically, such as the Dash sneakyinstamine followed by compounding of ongoing issuance flows to masternodes. Yet without significant forensics or insiders squealing due to for example the SEC’s whistleblower bountry program, perhaps securities enforcement against Dash could be difficult to prove.

[1] Even though they don’t form a common enterprise, I originally thought the AML regulations singled out issuers of (even decentralized) virtual currencies as being money transmitters (subject to registration as MSBs) if they dispose the mined tokens to another person without employing an AML regulated exchange instead of spending them on goods & services, But a more recent AML guideline clarified that it’s not being an issuer that is relevant to money service businesses classification, but rather whether one is acting as an exchanger for others as service/business to the others. IOW, if you regularly offer to convert exchange real currency or other virtual currencies, then AML regulation applies. So doing such exchanges on an AML compliant exchange would eliminate any potential culpability. Note my reading of the AML guidance is that miners of decentralized virtual currencies are issuers (they created new money supply by mining and issue the tokens to themselves), but they’re not administrators because they don’t have the power to redeem tokens in order to reduce the money supply.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
Oh my why didn’t I think of this.

Air dropping after the fact, the token sale issued tokens, could be a way to convert an illegal security into an unencumbered token!

Is this the way to issue an ICO and get away with it without actually encumbering the future of the tokens?

Actually I did think of this before but I was thinking that the new tokens need to be held for 3 years because I was thinking the same issuer (of the ICO) would issue also the air drop. But if the new issuer is non-affiliated with the ICO issuer, I think this air drop might be the way to convert the illegal ICO tokens to legal tokens.

If a Token is a security, is a fork the same as a share split?

I’m thinking that if the new issuer is non-affiliated with the prior one, then no it isn’t a split. The investment contract was with the original issuer and common enterprise. The new non-affiliated issuer has no investment contract with the investors in the ICO.

Afaik this is what DecentralizedEconomics is doing with his YourChain project,

I hope not. On further analysis, it appears to not solve anything.
full member
Activity: 462
Merit: 100
Many government around the world are now looking into crypto currency its self. I am sure many nation don't understand it yet. Ico are still going to be here.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
Best IoT Platform Based on Blockchain
I believe the future of cryptocurrency cannot thrive without a commercial ecosystem to work with, such as the one that Ethereum's ICOs are creating.

In the conventional world, we have physical gold, fiat currencies, and enterprises/corporations working together as one thriving system.

If the future is without the ICOs, it would be like a world where we have physical gold and fiat currencies, but without enterprises/corporations.

Despite posing the highest level of scam and fraud, I believe the ICOs will remain the most rewarding sector of the crypto world.

Imagine this scenario whereby you have all the BTC, LTC, ZCASH in the world, and nothing else.

On the other side, another person has all the enterprises in the world, and nothing else.

Somehow you will have the need to acquire some of the products and services produced by the enterprises.

And enterprises being profit-oriented, will not sell you its products/services at fair price, but at a profit.

Thus the change of wealth will ultimately be a net positive flow from you (the one having all the cryptocurrencies in the world) to the person with all the enterprises in the world.

Buying BTC is like buying physical gold.

Buying LTC, BTH, ZCASH, DASH, etc is like buying the USD, GBP, YEN, etc.

Buying ICOs is like buying shares of enterprises and corporations.

And the level of reward you will get from the ICOs will depend on participating in legitimate ICOs with viable commercial projects.

Just my speculation.
sr. member
Activity: 756
Merit: 268
Oh my why didn’t I think of this.

Air dropping after the fact, the token sale issued tokens, could be a way to convert an illegal security into an unencumbered token!

Is this the way to issue an ICO and get away with it without actually encumbering the future of the tokens?

Actually I did think of this before but I was thinking that the new tokens need to be held for 3 years because I was thinking the same issuer (of the ICO) would issue also the air drop. But if the new issuer is non-affiliated with the ICO issuer, I think this air drop might be the way to convert the illegal ICO tokens to legal tokens.

If a Token is a security, is a fork the same as a share split?

I’m thinking that if the new issuer is non-affiliated with the prior one, then no it isn’t a split. The investment contract was with the original issuer and common enterprise. The new non-affiliated issuer has no investment contract with the investors in the ICO.

Afaik this is what DecentralizedEconomics is doing with his YourChain project,
newbie
Activity: 75
Merit: 0
If a Token is a security, is a fork the same as a share split?
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